2008-01-16, 21:28 | Link #41 | |
An Intellectual Idiot
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Internet, ranging from the World of Warcraft------Deviantart----and much more!..My mostly WoW
Age: 31
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2008-01-17, 21:32 | Link #42 | |
Is Neither Goth Nor Emo
Join Date: Feb 2007
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2008-01-17, 21:42 | Link #43 |
Is Neither Goth Nor Emo
Join Date: Feb 2007
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One thing that made me cry about this thread:
Bornstatin made a comment about how from a "metaphysical" point-of-view, it was ethically permissible to kill people on the idea that it made people/society/our species stronger. My mind flashes "ERROR -- DOES NOT COMPUTE" messages all over the inside of it. So. . . life has no intrinsic value according to the cold uncaring mechanical processes of physics and evolution. But on the other hand, you somehow derive the conclusion that Social Darwinism is mandated by a "will"? Is this will God or Satan? Is he perhaps one of the pagan gods? I'm not sure how this works either: 1) Wanton violence and competition. 2) ??? 3) Profit! My brain hurts. |
2008-01-18, 10:12 | Link #45 | |
An Intellectual Idiot
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Internet, ranging from the World of Warcraft------Deviantart----and much more!..My mostly WoW
Age: 31
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No...Violence and Competition is there for a reason, with out competition you have nothing to work for..and usualy competitions include some form of violence.......I have no idea what you mean by "???" and I have no idea what you mean by "Profit!" but I'll take a guess...Everyone is greedy...everyone wants money....It's human nature to want..some just want it more than others....So, competion and violence can go into to gaining a profit (Obviously, look at sports..It's both profitable and violent...(Unless it's like Golf...but then you could..I mean, beat the crap out of your opponents with you clubs..that would make it violent..xD) |
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2008-01-18, 18:33 | Link #46 | |
Is Neither Goth Nor Emo
Join Date: Feb 2007
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What you're talking about might be more appropriate called energy. The potential for things to occur. And just because *you* have a will, doesn't mean that there was necessarily a will that made it that way. People like to talk about "will" behind every cause, but that isn't necessarily automatically fact. Intelligent design is one of the more headache inducing examples of this. Here's also another idea. The universe doesn't have a will. If it doesn't have a will, then it doesn't have a purpose to give us. In other words, evolution has no more meaning that we decide to give it. It's not there to evolve the perfect being. It doesn't care that violence and competition exist. Such things only have significance to animals. Or humans, if you're going to get hung-up and decide that humans are not animals. If the universe does have a will, then you call it God. If a larger part of the universe does have a will, then it is merely *a* god. Of course, some people will say that God is outside of time and space, but they're just dodging the issue. The general point is that you might think of the universe as an instrument of God's will. Or no will at all. Whichever you prefer. They're about the same. In any case, I'm pretty sure most religious folk will probably explain evolution as part of God's divine plan, but they'll never be any more specific about it than that. More likely than not, they'll outright reject the idea that evolution has any implications for how humans should behave. It's a natural law, just not a moral one. In other words, saying that the laws of physics has a morality or an ethical system to recommend to us is pretty ridiculous. There isn't a moral science. Anybody who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you a bridge. Last edited by Twisted Reality; 2008-01-18 at 18:50. |
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2008-01-23, 11:48 | Link #47 | |
An Intellectual Idiot
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Internet, ranging from the World of Warcraft------Deviantart----and much more!..My mostly WoW
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2008-01-23, 16:24 | Link #49 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Language is a matter of consensus. Things like whether the Earth is flat or not isn't. Besides, our knowledge isn't restricted to stuff we are taught. If that was so, there'd be no progress. |
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2008-01-23, 19:26 | Link #50 | |
Gregory House
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First of all, let me clear that, according to what I understand of Metaphysics (I'm not an expert in philosophy, though I know enough about it to consider myself learned), by my general mindset, I would be one of those people who believe there really isn't a "set of rules" beyond what science does to filter reality (in other words, a pure atheist). However, I like to play with the idea from time to time purely out of romantic enjoyment. Let's just say that I have atheist and agnostic phases of my own personality and set of beliefs, which I apply depending on the situation (most of the people who know me would say I'm atheist). And on the point of the quote I nabbed from Solace, I'm one of those people who firmly believe there doesn't exist a free will at all. What we think is our consciousness and our free will is nothing but an illusion, a feeble "feeling" of self-awareness. Truth is, our self-awareness as individuals, and more importantly, as a species, isn't "complete" yet. Logical thinking may only have been the first step towards reaching it. We're just a part of the circumstances as every other little thing that surrounds us, and our actions are influenced by every other variable around us, even those we don't know the existence of yet. Now, wandering off towards my romantic (and strangely optimistic) approach to these ideas... if anything, we're a part of a sort of "cycle" through which an element of reality, of which we may well be only but a step towards, gains complete and full self-awareness, of itself and its circumstances (which actually comprise the most important element of the true self-awareness). It might be mankind's next evolutionary step, it might be something we can barely dream of right now, but it will happen. And when it does, it will be perfect. Yes, it's fatalist. Yes, I know fatalism is the root of pessimism, but my view is purely optimistic. I don't know how it will happen, but, in my romantic, agnostic phases, I'm perfectly sure it will happen, and as I said, it will be perfect. Will I be there to see it? I'm sure not. But, at any rate, what does guarantee us that the future "perfection" has to be something like anything we've ever experienced before? It will be different, so much different in so many levels that just trying to imagine it would blow our mind into tiny pieces, like those fictitious robots we often see in media exploding when they try to process a paradox (which actually doesn't happen, but that's not the point ). Perhaps I've drifted a bit too far off from what you originally intended to convey, but I hope it adds another point of view over the matter.
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2008-01-23, 20:48 | Link #51 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Objections aside however, you do have an interesting perspective on life. Yes, logic is a blunt tool. We can't rely on it alone to find our way. And sometimes, we do think too much for our own good. |
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2008-01-23, 21:02 | Link #52 | ||
Gregory House
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Or, at the very least, it's an idea that propels me forward and makes me think positively about mankind. If I had to think otherwise, then the knife would be much closer to my wrist. Quote:
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2008-01-23, 21:10 | Link #54 | |
Toyosaki Aki
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By cause and effect, what defines the individual and his actions are genetics and environment, factors that we do not choose. Those factors influence our thinking and consequently our reactions. Therefore, all of our reactions under "free will" are simply the products of of nature and nurture, which we do not have control over. We do not walk the path that we choose, but the path that we have been led to choose. This is the theoretical elimination of free will. This is possible since humans are logical creatures which is what I think he means by logical thinking is the "first step". Since we have logic, under a set circumstance, we will always choose the same thing. I don't really understand that "complete self-awareness" and "evolution" concept. It just sounds way too similar to Instrumentality from Evangelion for comfort though.
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2008-01-23, 21:24 | Link #55 |
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Haha... how cruel. You're proposing we're living our lives acting upon a script we have no control over.
By your logic, are crimes really 'crimes' in the ethical sense anymore? Or does 'love' or 'hate' or any other emotion even matter..? You make humans pathetic and non-sentient. So by your thought pattern, lets flush the religions and morals down the drain since technically, it'd be another act under the inevitably dominant script. Or any of our acts for that matter, even this worthless post. |
2008-01-23, 21:26 | Link #56 | |||
Gregory House
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That doesn't mean that an ocean of LCL is the perfect way, either. More like the networking hive-mind sketched sometimes in Ghost in the Shell. Neither does that mean that I'm going to go out of the way to force people to become that EDIT: Quote:
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2008-01-23, 21:30 | Link #57 | ||
Toyosaki Aki
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Crimes really are the product of circumstance, if you wish to use that example. Criminality is correlated very highly with poor socioeconomic status, single mother families, child abuse, and instability. While correlation doesn't imply causation, there are things that cause people to be more likely to commit crime. Emotion and sentience are also the result of circumstances. You would hate someone who murdered your family, and love someone who shows you kindness and support, not the other way around. The things that you say are all influenced by your upbringing, they definitely influence what you do, but you don't get to choose what your upbringing is. For example, there was this family on youtube who taught their kids to be proud Nazis, their morals are going to be different from yours, because their environment is different from yours. (Please refrain from neg-repping, I am explaining a philosophy, not saying what I believe. I can't even count how many neg-reps I get for explaining an unpopular idea that somehow becomes my own.)
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2008-01-23, 21:44 | Link #58 |
Junior Member
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Anime references.. darn.
Well, the value as I've defined it in the initial post was doesn't 'change' in the general meaning of the word. It's either there or it's not there. It's a number, just like the binary code which represents information much more vivid. I beleive that these 'values' actually affect all non-living relationships as well, and that's how I would define probability. Humans can 'change' what side of a coin faces them after a toss if they 'will' for it hard enough. Living govern the non-living. So even free will.. might actually exist mutually, if not individually (just as value does). I'll look into this more after my exams are done. |
2008-01-23, 21:50 | Link #59 | |
Toyosaki Aki
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free will, philosophy |
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