2008-01-09, 14:25 | Link #21 | |||||
Aegisub dev
IT Support
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Florianópolis, Brazil, Pale Blue Dot
Age: 38
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In this system, one or more QCs would simply flag several areas of the video as "in need of attention of a ###". After that, the assigned relevant person would be informed of the need to check it, and decide to either dismiss it or edit it himself. Quote:
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You could optimize work for two different goals: for very fast release, even if it means that some people will have to continually wait for new lines, or for minimal work, in which case the program buffers them and gives you a batch to work on as appropriate. An interesting side-effect of this is that since translation is probably the slowest part in the pipeline, everyone else would have extra time to reflect on their changes, therefore preventing rushing and maybe increasing the quality of release. Well, my grandmother doesn't even know how to use a computer, so I guess I don't know. :P |
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2008-01-09, 14:37 | Link #22 |
My E-Penis > Your E-Penis
Fansubber
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Age: 38
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"An interesting side-effect of this is that since translation is probably the slowest part in the pipeline, everyone else would have extra time to reflect on their changes, therefore preventing rushing and maybe increasing the quality of release.
" oh well, it might prove interesting. i'll be waiting to see how it turns out :x who knows, might even adopt it
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2008-01-09, 15:39 | Link #25 |
Pioneer in Fansub 2.0
Join Date: Aug 2007
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ArchMageZeratuL, have you ever used a program called MoonEdit?
It's basically an online notepad where many people can edit the same file on server in real time. Wikipedia has an image for it: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...5/MoonEdit.png As you can see, you can see people's nicknames on the right and their edit color, and everyone's text can be recognized from the background color. I think you could get some good ideas from this. My suggestions: I think you shouldn't have a "let's assign roles for everyone" kind of thing... You should just let everyone edit, if everyone knows what they are supposed to do beforehand they probably won't do stuff outside their work anyway. Another thing is to give every user colors, like in MoonEdit. You could for example have the BG of line show the color of the person who edited it last, or even better, show what was edited, like exactly in MoonEdit. This way people could easily see changes other people have done. Make a chat for users editing the current file. Best place would probably be right next to the actual editing window, so people could comment on what they have done, or discuss what they should do... for example, if you have multiple timers and a script, you could simply tell timers what lines to time, and every could get to work. If you make it completely real-time like I suggested, a good feature would be autosave to HDD, so if somebody messes up bigtime you could just copy stuff from previous version that you saved on HDD. Or maybe just have a history for every change... MoonEdit has this, but I sure as hell don't know how to actually make it. But if you had this, you could make an option to revert any line back to any state it was in before. I have actually though about "online multiuser subbing program could be really handy" before, nice to see someone else having interest on the subject too. |
2008-01-09, 15:52 | Link #27 | |||||
Aegisub dev
IT Support
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Florianópolis, Brazil, Pale Blue Dot
Age: 38
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Your proposal, though, would be quite different, so, yes, having each field of each line saying who last edited it might be better. Quote:
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Either way, with your idea, we would still need to atomically "lock" lines, at least, different parts of them. This would be easier if you could constrain yourself to only editing some areas. Either way, this needs more discussion, the pros and cons of each suggested method. Yours is certainly easier to implement, but would it be better to use? |
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2008-01-09, 16:02 | Link #28 | |
Pioneer in Fansub 2.0
Join Date: Aug 2007
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EDIT: I made a quick interface proposal on what the online editing could look like: In this example, we three would have already discussed who does what (I translate, AMZ edits and TheFluff times) and all the changes made by individual users can be seen on the edited parts, like here you can see with just a quick glance what TheFluff has already timed (lines 1 and 2), what AMZ has edited (lines 1-3) and what I have written (everything else). Anyway, I'd say that user-specific colors is a must, since it would probably be the best and fastest way to recognize what everyone has done. Last edited by Daiz; 2008-01-09 at 17:54. |
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2008-01-09, 17:25 | Link #29 |
Aegisub dev
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Age: 39
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Just read through the thread...
I think what most people have already described, or at least what they're thinking of, is that every line, or every part of a line, apart from the current data has a history of changes per field, along with who did it, as well as a number of "what needs to be done" flags. When all "needs to be done" flags are clear, the line is considered "signed off" and can go into the release. A revision of a line can also instead of an actual change to the line information be a "mark as need retiming" or whatever, accompanied by a comment on why it needs that. Then the line is flagged for "needs timing" again and the timer is told to review the line. If a line is marked as "needs TL check", after that TL check is done it's automatically sent to editing again, and after that for another TC. Ie. complete process management in that sense. Perhaps such processes should be defineable, but that might be overkill. Yeah, it's enterprisey!
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2008-01-09, 18:55 | Link #30 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
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I personally think that roles are overmanaged in what everybody's describing. All that stuff could be better handled at the personal level ("hey, whoever, don't touch my stuff until I say I'm done"), rather than at the program level. Even if the rules are completely configurable, like amz was suggesting, I think that by far the most common configuration would be to have all the restrictions off - and in that case, why implement it in the first place.
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2008-01-09, 20:43 | Link #31 | |
Aegisub dev
IT Support
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Florianópolis, Brazil, Pale Blue Dot
Age: 38
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Also, we don't want to make a system where mistakes and conflicts are likely to creep in. |
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2008-01-09, 23:36 | Link #32 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
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But the thing is, the time it takes for people to coordinate themselves is pretty negligible. And the people doing the subs can easily use the same restrictions that the software would, if the lines can be tagged individually based on their status, without actually being restricted.
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2008-01-10, 01:00 | Link #33 |
Panda Herder
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: A bombed out building in Beruit.
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Don't assume everyone using it will be intelligent or capable of following instructions (if you'd like proof read other threads in this forum).
It would also be nice to be able to set break points. Say you have 3 timers and the tl has finished translation. s/he could divide the script between the 3 via break points which would give the approximate time of the line. That way if the tl likes to have everything tl'd before passing it on (or whatever) the rest could be done in parallel. This could also be useful if there's a long span without convo so the timer can just skip it. |
2008-01-10, 01:33 | Link #34 |
Translator, Producer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Age: 44
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How about this for a radical proposal (20% serious)?
Implement a scoring system. Basically, everyone in the group is a "player", and you get points based off of speed and accuracy (the qcers job is to find errors, so they are sort of like competing to be the best "judge")... Might be tricky to balance the point system properly for different roles... Hell, you could even put a simple stats based system for players so as they continue to sub they level up their skills... maybe a trophy room People have mentioned before fansubbing is like a MMORPG to them, so why not ACTUALLY make a (not really massive) MORPG for the process itself? It would encourage speed, and if implemented right, accuracy.
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2008-01-10, 07:40 | Link #36 |
Senior Member
Fansubber
Join Date: Jul 2004
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This idea isn't completely new... It comes in handy for programmer's perspective, i.e. subprogramming where people work in parts of the codes simultaneously. For CPU jobs, it's been called multithreading where the threads are submitted in parallel and then the data generated from the threads is combined/used/manipulated at a latter time. But, we're no computers, we're human beings. :/ When writing a textbook, several authors can write parts of the book or chapter at the same time without interfering with another. However, this only applies when they fully complete that one section of writings. Surely, they can submit parts of the document for editing, but the complete ideas have been presented in that section being submitted. This isn't quite the same as subbing, as those chapters are completely independent from other chapters. For chapters/sections depending on other chapters/sections, they are still done sequentially, nonetheless.
However, I don't think/find there is one single fansubber who is willing to do one or three lines and submit them to the server, not to mention some translations or editing require one to trace back in time. Most people would lose motivations when subdividing jobs like that in free-fansubbing; I know I will. In addition, most of the lines if not all depend upon other lines, making one-to-one line (or several lines) subbing almost impossible. Last edited by pichu; 2008-01-10 at 07:57. |
2008-01-10, 07:57 | Link #37 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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*pats pichu* I think these guys are just stuck in their own little dream world discussing stuff that will never be put to code, much less to practical use.
@AMZ: Weren't you the one to propose that dreamy AS5 spec some time ago? How is that project working out? |
2008-01-10, 07:59 | Link #38 |
Part 8
IT Support
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daiz's interface is nice. I understood it immediately.
Another interface feature that would be nice would be to give the ability to see what section of the text other users are looking at. In reality, just showing what the other users have selected would be close enough. One feature that would be nice is the ability to send or stream data from users to each other. For example, a 50kbit video stream and 30kbit audio stream could be quickly sent to all users so they have an idea what they are subbing while the real thing could come down in the background. Would suggesting the chat backend run as a real IRC server and voicechat be integrated be amiss? |
2008-01-10, 08:21 | Link #39 | |
Ana-chan~
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Netherlands
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Also .. nothing seems more fun to me than working on one same script file with multiple people.. It's like a game |
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