Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Sansker]

Well after reading a little more in to this I will have to admit you are right Keroko. It is a breaker and it does all those things. I was not well inform in the breaker magic and I just say what it look like to me, I never say what it happen in the manga was a lie I am saying it doesn't look like that to me. I can see when I was wrong and agree with your explanation on this matter.

[WarpObscura]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Think about all the differences between the various martial arts styles we have. Some, like Tae Kwan Do, rely on throws. While Akido relies on avoiding a fight, or if they must fight, there are a lot of counters, dodges, and turning your opponents moves against them. Karate focuses on a lot of strikes.

Just FYI, Taekwondo is infamous(ly panned) for its high kicks. Throws go under judo, if you're only talking Eastern martial arts.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by WarpObscura

Just FYI, Taekwondo is infamous(ly panned) for its high kicks. Throws go under judo, if you're only talking Eastern martial arts.

Oops, you are right about that. Got my martial arts styles mixed up there. I was thinking judo, and it came out tae kwon do.

[Sansker]

So now that we can agree in having no agreement over Belka and Mid-Childa magic (I still hold my idea on that matter, breaker or not) there is something else I was wondering: AMF technology.

I read that the thing prevents the linking of magic between the mage’s linker core and the device. However as we can see in the series some mage can force their magic even under AMF but then later they can’t. How that works?

I mean I know we could say “The AMF use in the Cradle was giant and powerful while Jail having access to the same tech create a weaker version” but this is my question: if this is suppose to prevent the linking how you can do it? And, why this diminish spells to the point of negate them when is just to prevent Linker Cores from, well, linking?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

So now that we can agree in having no agreement over Belka and Mid-Childa magic (I still hold my idea on that matter, breaker or not)

"Even though there are differences I will still say there are no differences"

Yeah, if that's your method of debating, there's no hope of ever convincing you.

Originally Posted by Sansker

there is something else I was wondering: AMF technology.

I read that the thing prevents the linking of magic between the mage’s linker core and the device. However as we can see in the series some mage can force their magic even under AMF but then later they can’t. How that works?

I mean I know we could say “The AMF use in the Cradle was giant and powerful while Jail having access to the same tech create a weaker version” but this is my question: if this is suppose to prevent the linking how you can do it? And, why this diminish spells to the point of negate them when is just to prevent Linker Cores from, well, linking?

An AMF unlinks magic. It only prevents linking because it unlinks magic as soon as its cast. Preventing magic from being cast is only a side effect. A very convenient one, but a side effect nonetheless.

[Nanya01]

Sansker, I know that you can't seem to see the differences between Mid and Belkan, but, how about we use something else that you might be more familiar with.

In the fighting game Street Fighter, there's 3 characters that use the exact same style, Ken, Ryu and Akuma.

Yet, despite all three using the same style, none of them play exactly the same as each other.

Ken, for example, focuses more on speed and leg work with an ability to hit from half way across the screen with a Dragon Punch.

Ryu is more focused on taking a hit, but his fireballs are faster than anyone else's, plus his own hurricane kick is higher than Ken's.

Akuma has multiple fireballs, can hit from mid-air, several lunging attacks and a variety of supers.

All three have the same stance and basic style, but they all use it differently enough that it's distinctive.

Which goes back to an earlier question that bhl asked "what's the difference between Strike Arts and Yagami Arts?"

and sometimes, the answer is, the practitioner, nothing more.

Heck, in real life, look at practitioners of Jujitsu and practitioners of Karate.

Karate is more focused on punishing punches and kicks to vital areas while Jujitsu is more focused on punishing grapples and holds.

However, Karate masters do have their own holds, throws and grapples, not only to counter a Jujitsu practitioner, but also to counter their own style.

And, despite the fact that a person who knows Karate might use Jujitsu throws and holds, that doesn't mean that Karate and Jujitsu are the same.

That's the same with Belkan and Mid. They might seem similar, but when you get down to it, there's a lot of differences between them.

Those differences get muddied when you have people like Vivio, Einhart, Nove, Muira, Fate, Subaru and Erio using one style but having spells, techniques and some abilities of another style.

[Skane]

It should also be noted that Subaru is practising "Modern Belkan", which is a hybrid of Mid-Childan and Ancient Belkan. Only a few characters actually use "Ancient Belkan", such as Carim or Signum.

Cheers.

[Keroko]

I'm not too sure about that. The origin of Modern Belka is muddy. During the early episodes of StrikerS, we assumed it was created after Nanoha and Fate incorporated the cartridge system in the mid system and revitalized the system, but the presence of Modern Belka users such as Quint and Megane before that time throws a wrench in that theory.

[Nanya01]

This is what I've been able to figure out from just observing...

Ancient Belkan - one-on-one, squire-to-knight, more focused on a specific style than anything else. Zest, Signum, Shamal, Zafira, Vita, Schach are all examples of this style.

Modern Belkan - can be trained to a lot of people at once. As we've seen with Subaru, Nove, Vivio, Quint, and Corona with Strike Arts (though it seems Yuuno taught Vivio the basics of her style). It uses what most people know of the Belkan style and seems to incorporate Mid-style in to make it effective.

BTW, what did Vivio call her style at the start of ViVid again? Neo-Belkan or Modern Belkan?

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

This is what I've been able to figure out from just observing...

Ancient Belkan - one-on-one, squire-to-knight, more focused on a specific style than anything else. Zest, Signum, Shamal, Zafira, Vita, Schach are all examples of this style.

Modern Belkan - can be trained to a lot of people at once. As we've seen with Subaru, Nove, Vivio, Quint, and Corona with Strike Arts (though it seems Yuuno taught Vivio the basics of her style). It uses what most people know of the Belkan style and seems to incorporate Mid-style in to make it effective.

BTW, what did Vivio call her style at the start of ViVid again? Neo-Belkan or Modern Belkan?

Vivio uses "Strike Arts". Which seem to be an offshot of Midchildan, as Vivio's magic uses the Midchildan circle, and not the Neo-Belkan circle.

[Keroko]

She doesn't specify, but the translation is a bit odd. Vivio's using a Belka/Mid hybrid. Also, she's consistently shown using a Belka circle if I recall, not a Mid one.

[Sansker]

Vivio says she use hybrid Mid-Belka but her main style is Belka. Now, and I am just repeating what I remember, the Saint Church members are all Ancient Belka users and there is an indication that Modern Belka was indeed created when Nanoha and Fate made possible using cartridges on Mid-Childa made devices.

Back to my idea, I believe you are mistaken here. First this was never about “convincing” anyone. I just wanted a debate over my own idea about Mid-Childa and Belka magic styles. Of course I get the difference the series make about both styles and I see why is very reasonable assume that is just the case and be done with it, but that is just not enough for me. Nanya does gives good examples to proof her point however I can use them to illustrate mine without saying that is less valid than mine.

If the difference is the practitioner, as I actually see that is most of the times, then there is no difference between Belka and Mid-Childa but how you decide to use them. Now and before we get down to the same arguments about it just hear me out. Both use mana, both need connection between the mage and its Linker Core and they are both using such power to archive physical hits or shooting spells. Now, Belka users tend to use more close range attacks while Mid-Childa users use mid and long ranges hits. But, and this is what I mean, their ways of using magic is the same at the core and the power is the same so is not two types of magic as much as two different ways to use the magic. I mean this like Karate and Judo are two different ways of using your body as a weapon but both are hand to hand combat styles, while something like fencing while using the body requires a sword.

There for we have people who use magic as a way to fight and use “systems” that we are told are different but when I come down to it are similar in nature and their differences are more superficial than anything else, so is really the opposite of what Nanya says, when I get down to it is when I can appreciate the similitude rather than the difference. They both consist on using magic to archive physical effects being by binding, shooting, enhanced attacks, etc. So in the end the differences come more from what the styles have being use rather than both being meant to something different. At least how we see them so far with Belka being able to still create long range spells and mid range attack as well as close ranges and Mid-Childa capable of using close range hits. And in no point do I see them lacking anything on those feels in front of the other style.

This is why I say there is no real difference between the two systems. I think what is similar matters more than what is “different” about them because the last ones are more a social conception and assumption than an actual thing. I could be wrong but so far that is my thoughts about it, I just wanted to share them and see what you guys think without the need to just address me and my ideas as products of hate, bad information or me just being stupid.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Sansker

If the difference is the practitioner, as I actually see that is most of the times, then there is no difference between Belka and Mid-Childa but how you decide to use them. Now and before we get down to the same arguments about it just hear me out. Both use mana, both need connection between the mage and its Linker Core and they are both using such power to archive physical hits or shooting spells. Now, Belka users tend to use more close range attacks while Mid-Childa users use mid and long ranges hits. But, and this is what I mean, their ways of using magic is the same at the core and the power is the same so is not two types of magic as much as two different ways to use the magic. I mean this like Karate and Judo are two different ways of using your body as a weapon but both are hand to hand combat styles, while something like fencing while using the body requires a sword.

So you're saying that every martial arts in the world is the same? Since they are all designed to fight/defend oneself, every style have punchs and kicks, and they all have counter and blocks they're the same?

Hell, while you're at it, why don't you say that every sport in the world is the fucking same? I mean, they're all moving using their weapon as a tool to compete against other people right?

You know what? Every fucking style of magic in the fiction world is the same by your definition. They all channel/gather a form of energy (mana, prana, odd, psychic energy, etc...) to force an effect (energy blasts, restraining someone, etc...)

There for we have people who use magic as a way to fight and use “systems” that we are told are different but when I come down to it are similar in nature and their differences are more superficial than anything else, so is really the opposite of what Nanya says, when I get down to it is when I can appreciate the similitude rather than the difference. They both consist on using magic to archive physical effects being by binding, shooting, enhanced attacks, etc. So in the end the differences come more from what the styles have being use rather than both being meant to something different. At least how we see them so far with Belka being able to still create long range spells and mid range attack as well as close ranges and Mid-Childa capable of using close range hits. And in no point do I see them lacking anything on those feels in front of the other style.

They ARE different. Channeling energy to improve physical stats and channeling them to fire it are two different things altogether.

Another thing is aptitude. They may be able to do things differently, but the style itself is suited to one particular aspect. Belkan with close combats and Mid Childa with long range. It's like a gun and a sword. You can use the gun in close combat, and you can certainly throw a sword, but in the end people usually use a gun to shoot and use a sword in close combat.

This is why I say there is no real difference between the two systems. I think what is similar matters more than what is “different” about them because the last ones are more a social conception and assumption than an actual thing. I could be wrong but so far that is my thoughts about it, I just wanted to share them and see what you guys think without the need to just address me and my ideas as products of hate, bad information or me just being stupid.

Yeah, no offense but you're just being stupid. If everyone ( and I mean practically EVERYONE ) try to convince you that those styles are different over and over while you deny them with superficial arguments like that, you have some serious problems.

[Sansker]

Well...

I still defend my theory, just to let you know.

[Auxilism]

Let's compare something basic, addition and multiplication. From this point all numbers I talk about are positive and non-zero.

Both methods increase the previous amount (assuming more than a factor of 1 for multipilcation) but there are situations where one is better than the other.

Mutlipilcation is not equal to addition. Both of them can and will do the same things but it is the process which is different. Mid can perform close combat but it is not preferred (just like adding non-rational numbers is better than finding the factor required to achieve the same thing) and belkan can perform ranged attacks (would you like to see 20+20...(a hundred times)+20 or 20*103?)

The journey is half the fun; the other half is as what you said, fundementally the same.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Now, and I am just repeating what I remember, the Saint Church members are all Ancient Belka users

Nnnope. In fact, Carim's the only member of the church we know of that uses Ancient Belka, as she was born with a rare skill. Acous is not part of the church, Schach practices Modern Belka and Shante practices Mid.

Originally Posted by Sansker

and there is an indication that Modern Belka was indeed created when Nanoha and Fate made possible using cartridges on Mid-Childa made devices.

By all means tell me these indications, because I recall most of them being pure speculation. Again, Quint and Megane throw huge wrenches in that theory. They are both Modern Belka users who used the system years before the events of A's.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Back to my idea, I believe you are mistaken here. First this was never about “convincing” anyone. I just wanted a debate over my own idea about Mid-Childa and Belka magic styles. Of course I get the difference the series make about both styles and I see why is very reasonable assume that is just the case and be done with it, but that is just not enough for me. Nanya does gives good examples to proof her point however I can use them to illustrate mine without saying that is less valid than mine.

If the difference is the practitioner, as I actually see that is most of the times, then there is no difference between Belka and Mid-Childa but how you decide to use them. Now and before we get down to the same arguments about it just hear me out. Both use mana, both need connection between the mage and its Linker Core and they are both using such power to archive physical hits or shooting spells. Now, Belka users tend to use more close range attacks while Mid-Childa users use mid and long ranges hits. But, and this is what I mean, their ways of using magic is the same at the core and the power is the same so is not two types of magic as much as two different ways to use the magic. I mean this like Karate and Judo are two different ways of using your body as a weapon but both are hand to hand combat styles, while something like fencing while using the body requires a sword.

There for we have people who use magic as a way to fight and use “systems” that we are told are different but when I come down to it are similar in nature and their differences are more superficial than anything else, so is really the opposite of what Nanya says, when I get down to it is when I can appreciate the similitude rather than the difference. They both consist on using magic to archive physical effects being by binding, shooting, enhanced attacks, etc. So in the end the differences come more from what the styles have being use rather than both being meant to something different. At least how we see them so far with Belka being able to still create long range spells and mid range attack as well as close ranges and Mid-Childa capable of using close range hits. And in no point do I see them lacking anything on those feels in front of the other style.

This is why I say there is no real difference between the two systems. I think what is similar matters more than what is “different” about them because the last ones are more a social conception and assumption than an actual thing. I could be wrong but so far that is my thoughts about it, I just wanted to share them and see what you guys think without the need to just address me and my ideas as products of hate, bad information or me just being stupid.

A flawed analogy. Yes, both judo and karate are hand to hand combat styles, but they are vastly different ones. Your analogy would be more accurate if you had said they were both "magic combat styles."

Let me turn your own analogy against you: You're saying that just because both use magic and linker cores they're essentially the same at the core, right?

Well, I use arm and leg muscles for both rowing and fencing, so those two must be the same at the core too, right?

Sounds silly? Well, that's the analogy you're using.

[Skane]

I don't think it was ever stated that nobody else was combining Belkan Cartridge Systems with Mid-Childan Magics before the dynamic duo of Nanoha and Fate. It was just considered very dangerous and not recommended for common use.

We could however, credit them for popularising it. Making it mainstream so to speak.

Cheers.

[Keroko]

That sounds like a good middle road.

[Sansker]

Actually I think I’m right here. The Church does practice Ancient Belka long before the Wolkenritter show up. For that matter we even have Zest as an Ancient Belka user so some people still knew the “lost style” even at his time. The Church is describe as a Belkan users organization. And the indication is this: before Nanoha and Fate use the cartridge system there were no even mention of two Belka styles and after there are two, so there is that.

And you are missing the point again. Not only Mid and Belka use energy the same but they can do the same, so really if I can perform close, mid and long range attack with any of those styles and the difference is that one is close range and the other is long range then to me that difference doesn’t really exist. Rowing and fencing use the same muscles at times but they archive different goals and need different equipment while Belka and Mid-Childa archive the same and can use the same equipment.

[Keroko]

But I can fence with a boat oar, and row with a sword, so there's no difference between the two, right?

Honestly, your analogy is just flimsy. Going back to what people previously mentioned: Yes it is possible for Belka and Mid to cross into each respective specialties, but neither will be as effective as the other at it. It's the equivalent of a karate master incorporating staff combat into his style. Does doesn't mean his style is the same as staff combat, just that he has incorporated that into his style.

In fact, historically speaking combining two different martial arts is usually what caused the birth of new martial arts.

Back to the church for a bit, I will repeat: The only Ancient Belka user in the church is the Rare Skill user Carim. Aside from that, the only other members we have data on use Modern or Mid. That basically crushes the theory that "all" members practice Ancient Belka.

Which brings us to "did Nanoha and Fate cause the creation of Modern Belka?" Again, we have factual proof saying no to that. Quint and Megane both practiced Modern Belka long before A's happened. Just because A's doesn't mention two styles proves nothing, while the existence of Quint and Megane prove that they have existed before A's.

At most it's like Skane said, that Nanoha and Fate caused a surge in the style's popularity.