Toradora! - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[puppygod]

Originally Posted by physics223

I didn't think the episode was great. I thought it was pretty weak, with its redemption all coming from Ami. I also felt that the ending confrontation was awkward and out of character. Although someone (roan) suggested it may have been just from the translation, I didn't really understand Minori's logic of creating happiness by herself ... by not being in a relationship? Happiness from a relationship entails significant work by both parties: if ever she went out with Ryuuji, it won't only be Minori who would have to work for that relationship to work, he would, too. In equal measure they will have to build up that happiness by themselves. I also couldn't understand why Ami, after all this time, still couldn't bring herself to be truly honest to Ryuuji. I doubt that the reason she stayed was only for the sake of Taiga: I think her own feelings towards Ryuuji has had a stake in it as well.

Remember the scene from ep.20 at the crossing? When Taiga tricked Minori into catching Ryuuji? "DamnthatTaigadamnthatTaigadamnthatTaiga". I think it's the same sentiment, only cranked up to eleven. Minori is really independent person and Taiga meddling really pisses her. She doesn't want it. She doesn't need it. Sure, she kinda likes Ryuuji, but I think that she feels that being with Ryuuji is not worth the fallout. It's her free choice to decide to not pursuit this relationship. And so she seriously HATES being coerced into this, especially because she is aware of what the cost is - cost for people she cares about. It's "thanks, but no thanks", "stop telling me what is good for me".

Originally Posted by physics223

I prognosticated something like that to happen between Noto and Maya, however. I guess it's like the endearment brought out by truth: just like the endearment that arose between Taku and Rikako in Ocean Waves. You don't expect them to have those feelings for one another but after the fight and the subsequent reflection one realizes that he or she is quite the unique and lovable character.

Well, signs of Noto crush toward Kihara can be traced back to Ep.8 when he grumbles about her complimenting "Maruo"

[stormy001_M1A2]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

You should say bravo to the author rather than JC Staff. The brilliance comes mostly from novels, rather than anime itself. In latest episode they are just rushing through things.

It still takes skill to rush, my friend.

[DragoZERO]

Awesome episode. Haruta with his girlfriend was pure win. We found out Ami isn't as cold hearted as some people may have thought and that Minorin wants to live her life without the help of others. And again there was plenty to analyze in this episode, which is what really makes this series so good. In the interview room Taiga says she wants to fall in love normally but at the cake shop she says falling in love from fighting all the time is normal, ah the irony. I didn't care too much for the final classroom scene where they ganged up on Taiga but the story needs to be moved along since there is only two episodes left now. It was nice all the friends are cooperating and helping each other out too. All that's left is for Minorin and Ryuji to chase Taiga for their final confrontation. What stinks is I don't think Ami will confess or Ryuji will find out about Ami's feelings. There is no way he'd figure it out since she is quite vague with her feelings towards Ryuji when he is with her.

Originally Posted by physics223

Although someone (roan) suggested it may have been just from the translation, I didn't really understand Minori's logic of creating happiness by herself ... by not being in a relationship? Happiness from a relationship entails significant work by both parties: if ever she went out with Ryuuji, it won't only be Minori who would have to work for that relationship to work, he would, too. In equal measure they will have to build up that happiness by themselves.

I think Minorin's real qualms was with Taiga, a third party, interfering with her love affairs.

Originally Posted by physics223

I also couldn't understand why Ami, after all this time, still couldn't bring herself to be truly honest to Ryuuji. I doubt that the reason she stayed was only for the sake of Taiga: I think her own feelings towards Ryuuji has had a stake in it as well.

Well, after the cake shop scene she does say she would be happy if not everyone cared for her, meaning she only wants Ryuji to like her. As stated before, I am disappointed that she won't confess, unless next week's episode title refers to her confession, but I doubt it.

Originally Posted by physics223

I guess it's like the endearment brought out by truth:

Spoiler for Ocean Waves:

just like the endearment that arose between Taku and Rikako in Ocean Waves. You don't expect them to have those feelings for one another but after the fight and the subsequent reflection one realizes that he or she is quite the unique and lovable character.

I added the spoiler tags for you since I'm sure you just ruined most of that story for me, which I was planning on watching today.

Originally Posted by Joachim

other than that excellent episode, its kinda hard seeing ryuji kinda tearing up when yasuko got sick, not to mention ami thats always keeping everything by herself.

Well, his mother got sick because she took on another job for his sake, so its okay with him being a little upset over it. And yeah, Ami really should have come clean in this episode with Ryuji. If we had more episodes I'm sure at one point she would have (I don't know what happens in the novel since I haven't read it yet, so don't tell me).

[Windows X]

The ending part of this episode is some what rather painful to watch but quite enjoyable. However, early parts left me speechless so I gave it 10/10.

This episode is masterpiece, best among all Toradora episodes. If you watch carefully, producer put out a lot of novel details in there through hidden thoughts.

Spoiler for My epic scenes:

Like when Ryuuji starts to lecture Taiga, Ami saying it'd be better if she leave to Ryuuji, Taiga calling Ryuuji name saying its all right, Ami confirming Ryuuji if everyone adores her (which includes Ryuuji himself) again.

Gosh.....this episode made me decide to keep DVD volumes.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by puppygod

It's "thanks, but no thanks", "stop telling me what is good for me".

I think, good sir, that you just hit the nail in the head. Sure, Minorin likes Ryuji - but she doesn't enjoy being coerced into being with him, specially when she knows what it will cost her friends. Pretty mature decision process, by the way.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I added the spoiler tags for you since I'm sure you just ruined most of that story for me, which I was planning on watching today.

Me too. People should learn not to spoil things in other series' threads...

[MeoTwister5]

Kushieda is one walking mass of paradoxes and hypocrisies. She doesn't want people meddling in her emotional affairs, but always interjects herself in Taiga's and Ryuuji's already turbulent relationship. She believes in independence to find your own happiness, but treats Taiga like Taiga's a child who doesn't know what she wants.

At the very least, Ami is practicing what she preaches, even if she's become the cast's highly brooding and suddenly docile member.

[physics223]

I can't believe I agree with Meo in matters beyond DotA, but yes. This episode made her so out of character, and translations helped little (not complaining, though).

DragoZERO:

You're welcome, although I barely spoiled anything. If you can't even stand very broad strokes like that for comparison's sake, I can't see how you tolerate other forums or threads. Please.

K, that came off angry. To expound, however, I barely spoiled anything. I didn't even mention any important occurrences in the film. But it's a wonderful movie. Someone spoiled it to me before and I still found it the best Ghibli movie I ever saw.

[typhonsentra]

How's she interjecting herself into Ryuuji and Taiga's problem? She avoided Ryuuji after the summer vacation, after she made up with him after the culture festival she told him she's deceptive and he shouldn't look at her the way he does, and after that she goes back to avoiding him like the plague. Can you think of an instance where she butts into Taiga's business with Ryuuji on her own volition before the confrontation in the last episode? The closest I can think of was in the second episode when she takes both of them to the roof to tell them that she supports their relationship which.... doesn't seem like a bad thing to me. She always had good intentions but she just had trouble telling people what she wanted.

[BetoJR]

Like typhonsentra said, I don't see Minorin butting into other people's businesses... where would that be, other than this episode?

[SwiftStrike]

guess taiga felt trapped at that part; its about time..for the truth

[MadCabbit]

Originally Posted by CaptGloval

So now I think that scene in the OP will be showing up next episode. That part where Minori is running like crazy would be her chasing Taiga.

I'm wondering if we'll ever see the scene with her clutching the hairpin, or if we've passed that point.

[BetoJR]

Probably, since the hairpin is back in Ryuji's hands, no? I don't think he would ever have the guts to give it back to her, now...

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Probably, since the hairpin is back in Ryuji's hands, no? I don't think he would ever have the guts to give it back to her, now...

It does give you the feeling that, the show will end with just Ryuji and Taiga as the main highlight, and all the other characters will just be looking by, feeling happy they're together and heaving a sigh to themselves.

The way I see it, getting anything else other than the "happily ever after" is like striking the lottery, or being killed by an asteroid. Whichever way you wanna look at it.

[Windows X]

FYI: Anime's storyboard went different from novel from start by opening confession scene before rumors. And about hairpin, it's anime's variations showing that Taiga realized it's Ryuuji who saved her. That's why she asked Ryuuji out if it was a dream.

They made it beautifully done. It might not cover everything from novel but it fits perfectly for anime.

[rg4619]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

It still takes skill to rush, my friend.

Indeed, the result speaks volumes about the team's talents. It certainly isn't the team or studio's fault that they have only 25 episodes to work with.

If anime creation is about making the best show under given circumstances, the Toradora! team earns an A+.

[Proto]

Hmm... I'm kinda surprised at people saying that Minori acted out of character this episode. Haven't we known for more than 10 EP's that Minori is an internal mass of contradictions and self lies waiting to explode? (e.g. this episode).

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Proto

Hmm... I'm kinda surprised at people saying that Minori acted out of character this episode. Haven't we known for more than 10 EP's that Minori is an internal mass of contradictions and self lies waiting to explode? (e.g. this episode).

I'm surprised too. Besides, Berserker Minori is awesome.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I'm surprised too. Besides, Berserker Minori is awesome.

Oh, that she is. Wouldn't have minded seeing her more, actually.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Proto

Hmm... I'm kinda surprised at people saying that Minori acted out of character this episode. Haven't we known for more than 10 EP's that Minori is an internal mass of contradictions and self lies waiting to explode? (e.g. this episode).

If anything Minori behaviour over those episodes just disappointed me, I mean passive-aggressively trying to get Taiga and Ryuji together by ignoring Ryuji really is no better than Taiga actively trying to push Ryuji and Minori together. Real life couples date first to see if they click, if it works that's great, if it doesn't move they onto someone else. If the people in this story actually tried to date first they wouldn't have to have stupid arguments over 'who's better for who'.

[Raiga]

Past two weeks I've been rewatching the first half of the series... and have been even more impressed. Maybe it's cause I got into Toradora around after episode 10 came out so I marathoned the series up to there, but so many details are planted so early that I never really picked up on, and hints at characters' true feelings that aren't revealed until much later... really makes me appreciate the writing so much more.

On another note, is it just me or did Ryuuji and Taiga almost get run over by a Prius this episode?