Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by nutype

there has to be a point to even bringing in andrei in on season 2. As flareknight suggests we might be seeing son and father fighting in mobile suits with perhaps one of them dying. I dont know sergei seems like a character that is destined to die. I just see so many death flags around him.

I'll be impressed if Sergei makes it through this series alive. He's really done a great job to survive so much to this point so either he's going to make it or his luck is just about dried up. Do hope the guy can survive since he is a good guy. Of course being a good guy has apparently made him expendable.

Don't really see Andrei dying in the show. Either he'll grow and finish with a better view of his father or he'll do something that ends up causing his father's death and Marie will kill him. On top of tossing in a possible father vs son confrontation why not have distant son vs almost adopted daughter?

[KaiDamien]

Nice episode. I love the way the plot is going. I was surprise Arios didn't go straight into MA mode for faster speed, and dang the beam didn't masurao.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Anavel

Episode was a little disappointing. It felt like it was going nowhere. The battle between the HAX suits was rushed. A second MM? Lame, makes spending the entire episode (13) practically pointless when the second MM is probably going to be destroyed easily without any effort.

You missed the point of the episode completely if you think it was supposed to be about the battle between 00-Raiser and Masurao. I'd suggest going back and watching it again while paying extra attention to the dialogue surrounding the nature of the Federation and Hercules attempted coup.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Those deaths also set things up

Proffesor: Causes Billy to want revenge since Celestial Being killed him
Darrly, and Howard: Causes Graham to want revenge and becomes Mr. Bushido
Louise Family: Causes Louise to join A-Laws, and slowly drives her insane

Andrei dying is neither deserved nor does it setup anything

That's an excellent point.
What purpose would him dying serve?

[Ribbons]

... Why did Nena go back to Wang?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

That's an excellent point.
What purpose would him dying serve?

As I said earlier, the only significant thing I can see Andrei's death providing is primarily increasing Louise's hatred and instability.

Originally Posted by Ribbons

... Why did Nena go back to Wang?

She never left. She's essentially doing the same thing to Wang that Wang is doing to Celestial Being and the Innovators.

[LordStrike]

Originally Posted by Ribbons

... Why did Nena go back to Wang?

she is just being what wang is a double agent XD

[Ribbons]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

She never left. She's essentially doing the same thing to Wang that Wang is doing to Celestial Being and the Innovators.

I see. She does have the best person to learn from though, I guess.

[Jays]

I liked this episode, it felt important, which was something the previous one didn't do a good job of doing that. In any case, it certainly does seem to ramp things up for what appears to be the biggest episode of season 2, I can't wait!

Mr. Bushido's blurb at the end, his reason for living is to surpass the "Gundam"? Hm, to this point I had thought he was fighting for the sake of just fighting, as in someone who takes pleasure in just the act of fighting. It's reminds me of when Graham said how he was consumed with "Gundam" last season, it's almost as if whole being, his life has been stolen by it, and he's trying to get it all back.

[nutype]

Originally Posted by Jays

I liked this episode, it felt important, which was something the previous one didn't do a good job of doing that. In any case, it certainly does seem to ramp things up for what appears to be the biggest episode of season 2, I can't wait!

Mr. Bushido's blurb at the end, his reason for living is to surpass the "Gundam"? Hm, to this point I had thought he was fighting for the sake of just fighting, as in someone who takes pleasure in just the act of fighting. It's reminds me of when Graham said how he was consumed with "Gundam" last season, it's almost as if whole being, his life has been stolen by it, and he's trying to get it all back.

my interpretation is that graham worships gundam the same way setsuna does...or did. The gundam is a living deity to him that he wants to surpass making himself a god. Setsuna is recently pulling away from the idea that gundam is something that ought to be worshipped. After he realised someone evil like ribbonz piloted the 0gundam he seems less inclined to put gundams on a pedestal anymore. In the latest episode he says there is a part of him that doesnt want to fight anymore.

[rpgman1]

Originally Posted by nutype

my interpretation is that graham worships gundam the same way setsuna does...or did. The gundam is a living deity to him that he wants to surpass making himself a god. Setsuna is recently pulling away from the idea that gundam is something that ought to be worshipped. After he realised someone evil like ribbonz piloted the 0gundam he seems less inclined to put gundams on a pedestal anymore. In the latest episode he says there is a part of him that doesnt want to fight anymore.

Setsuna seems to remember Neil's words and probably go along with his ideals. He's changing slowly and probably for the better.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by rpgman1

Setsuna seems to remember Neil's words and probably go along with his ideals. He's changing slowly and probably for the better.

Marina is also playing a role in Setsuna's development... that little song of her's and the kids really struck a cord with him and did well to silence his will to fight; at the worst time yes, but it did so non-the-less

[Jays]

Originally Posted by nutype

my interpretation is that graham worships gundam the same way setsuna does...or did. The gundam is a living deity to him that he wants to surpass making himself a god. Setsuna is recently pulling away from the idea that gundam is something that ought to be worshipped. After he realised someone evil like ribbonz piloted the 0gundam he seems less inclined to put gundams on a pedestal anymore. In the latest episode he says there is a part of him that doesnt want to fight anymore.

Well there is some truth to that...

You know, I think from that moment that Setsuna was saved by the 0-Gundam, he's viewed "Gundam" in general as a symbol of something. I don't really know what it is to be honest with you, because he's never really expanded on it. One could look at episode 11, Setsuna says the lines "Destroy... We will destroy it! With our conviction". Perhaps he views his Gundam as a manifestation of his beliefs? Or maybe he believes that Gundam is that power that comes from his beliefs.

It's confusing to be honest, because at the beginning of this season, Setsuna is obsessed with destroying what he percieves is the distortion in the world, he also is unable to find any other reason to live seeing as he's destroyed his past and therefore believes he has no future. It's almost his belief in Gundam is a cover up for his weakness as a human, it's his crutch.

Or perhaps "Gundam" is a metaphor for Setsuna himself, or his will to fight. In this episode he says "A life dedicated to fighting is...", as if to say meaningless, what is the purpose of just destroying? In the end I don't quite understand, or maybe right now I can't really think about.

I do believe that Setsuna has gained the ability look past whatever Gundam means to him, while Graham hasn't. In part it's due to Lockon and reminding Setsuna that being consumed with your past doesn't let you live your life. I agree with you, but I think through Setsuna's evolution if you will, we can better understand Graham's current state of mind, seeing as he is consumed with the symbol of Gundam.

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by Jays

Well there is some truth to that...

You know, I think from that moment that Setsuna was saved by the 0-Gundam, he's viewed "Gundam" in general as a symbol of something. I don't really know what it is to be honest with you, because he's never really expanded on it. One could look at episode 11, Setsuna says the lines "Destroy... We will destroy it! With our conviction". Perhaps he views his Gundam as a manifestation of his beliefs? Or maybe he believes that Gundam is that power that comes from his beliefs.

It's confusing to be honest, because at the beginning of this season, Setsuna is obsessed with destroying what he percieves is the distortion in the world, he also is unable to find any other reason to live seeing as he's destroyed his past and therefore believes he has no future. It's almost his belief in Gundam is a cover up for his weakness as a human, it's his crutch.

Or perhaps "Gundam" is a metaphor for Setsuna himself, or his will to fight. In this episode he says "A life dedicated to fighting is...", as if to say meaningless, what is the purpose of just destroying? In the end I don't quite understand, or maybe right now I can't really think about.

I do believe that Setsuna has gained the ability look past whatever Gundam means to him, while Graham hasn't. In part it's due to Lockon and reminding Setsuna that being consumed with your past doesn't let you live your life. I agree with you, but I think through Setsuna's evolution if you will, we can better understand Graham's current state of mind, seeing as he is consumed with the symbol of Gundam.

I think it was more or less covered pretty well in Season 1: The Gundam to Setsuna is the embodiment of power; the power that ends war. The Gundum 0 pretty much neutralized every mobile suit on the battlefield Setsuna was in and it left a deep impression on him. That's why he keeps repeating that he was (or at least wants to be) a Gundam: he wants to become one with the power that is strong enough to stop battles from occuring.

I find it funny how he keeps saying there is no god and yet he worshiped Gundams so much. Then again, it's different because he dared to become one with Gundam.

[Ottocycle]

"I was Gundam"
"I will surpass the Gundam!!"
"I am no longer Gundam!!!"

[RDF2050]

Well, I think i must say there are 2 types of forums members here:

Poli-viewer ( Poli-Boy) = Person who only want more character development and some politics issues.

Action-Viewer ( Action-Boy) = Person that only care each episode have a lot of action.

I am actually a mix of them because in order to have a good battle, there must be a great character development and background information.

[Nightwing(T_T)]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Well it looks like I'm going to have to eat my words about thinking this would be a medicore episode. Seeing it subbed I really came to appreciate what it does and would gladly trade a longer duel between Graham and Setsuna for what we got here. One of my own lingering gripes about the second season is that I felt they really hadn't done much to soldify the motives and goals of the characters as they fight with each other beyond the personal grudges like Lockon's death, Tieria's humanity etc.....until now.

Hercules part in the story as it stands has been very well done and well written and it more or less get's the ball rolling on what I assume is going to be the lead up to the final arc (Wang called it the beginning of the end) and showed at last a definitive glimpse at the Federation way of life. I'd also say it reminded me of the definitive episode of Zeta Gundam called Day of Dakar where Char made his speech to Federation leaders and the rest of the world while the Titans tried to put a stop to the truth getting out, only of course things go a little differently it looks like it will be a lot harder for the truth to get out in this case.

Still, this episode really needed to happen before we can move on to finishing off the story and for a while I was legitimately worried we weren't going to get any content like this and we would end up rushing into the final arc without defining it's purpose. I also don't think it could have worked if things hadn't been as slow paced as they were to allow it all to sink in over the course of the episode that we are on the cusp of potentially breaking the Innovator's monopoly on information and of finally allowing the rest of the world to see the truth for themselves. Kataron's goals become clearer, Celestial Beings goals become clearer, the Innovator's/A-LAWS goals....well they've always been clear, but there is now little mystery left going into the final arc and that's what the show needs at this critical moment.

Of course now this set's up an episode 17 that really needs to deliver. If the elevator does come down it will be tragic, but it will be impossible to ignore as the orbital ring is one of the Federation's main sources of energy and somebody will notice and be able to trace it back to the Federation itself. It would also help if CB and Kataron along with Hercules and now potentially Sergei who has seen the truth with his own eyes are able to somehow get the truth out to the public once and for all. I mean what is A-LAWS going to do then? Start attacking the people they claim to be trying to protect? I'm also curious to see if the Federation public would turn out to be as self-interested as Hercules claims they are.

So yeah Graham vs. Setsuna was short, but I really have to say it didn't bother me at all because that wasn't the point of the episode. The point of the episode was to highlight the twilight of the current state of the world with the Federation as an information monopoly and the start of the next. Whether it's Wang's world of destruction, Ribbons world of Innovator rule and a human exodus to space (if that's still his goal) or CB's world without wars (doubtful, but perhaps they could settle for peace in their era) remains to be seen. Most likely it will be somewhere in between all of it though if I had to hazard a guess.

So in the end I'm sure the action lovers will probably be disappointed by this episode, but a lover of politics, philosophy and the role of the media (the honorary 4th arm of the government) really has to appreciate what they've done. Cookie for Kuroda/Mizushima wherever they are.

well said kaioshin. I also come to really appreciate the episode after watching the sub. And somehow I found myself to be really engulf in the plot more than the action (in fact I don't mind if there are none). I just wants to know what's going to happen next.

And I'm glad to see the changes in setsuna thanx to Marina and Lockon that word of him that he will reform himself while the ED BGM played is really sweet.




Edit: Anyone love how they potrait our current world situation today in this episode?

[Killer Tomato]

As opposed to many people, I think Graham and Ali are getting boring. They were cool in Season 1, but now they're nothing more than fanatics itching for a battle. I personally feel there's nothing left to develop for their character and all, perhaps they'll survive to the last episode, and die there. Great action definitely, just that it isn't Ali or Graham that's interesting now. It's the fighting that is interesting. I.e. replace Ali and Graham with someone else with the same level of skill, the fight will still be interesting.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Killer Tomato

As opposed to many people, I think Graham and Ali are getting boring. They were cool in Season 1, but now they're nothing more than fanatics itching for a battle. I personally feel there's nothing left to develop for their character and all, perhaps they'll survive to the last episode, and die there. Great action definitely, just that it isn't Ali or Graham that's interesting now. It's the fighting that is interesting. I.e. replace Ali and Graham with someone else with the same level of skill, the fight will still be interesting.

That's partly the price you pay by having more adults in Gundam shows. Characters over 35-40years old have little room for character evolution.

You can't please everyone. If 00 had more teenage pilots, people will complain about how unrealistic it is. But by having adults running the show, 00 can't let anyone learn "life lessons". Can't have it both ways.

[KaiDamien]

Originally Posted by RDFMASTER

Well, I think i must say there are 2 types of forums members here:

Poli-viewer ( Poli-Boy) = Person who only want more character development and some politics issues.

Action-Viewer ( Action-Boy) = Person that only care each episode have a lot of action.

I am actually a mix of them because in order to have a good battle, there must be a great character development and background information.

For me i believe that for people to rewatch a show, there must be action in it. Cause when you finished the show once you will know about the plot, and it will not be as exciting to rewatch the show.