Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by winter45

Znozzy your taking my original post out of context, is not who side AA is on or how many kills AA have or who directly/indirectly blah blah blah...

Monster and I concluded that when it comes to ORB Forces, Cagalli would be biased. After all she is the part of the leadership of ORB, what kind of leader would she be if she has no interest of her forces survival.

Oh yeah, of course she would be biased if Kira started shooting down ORB forces out of the blue, but she did her thing, failed, and then Kira started shooting everyone.

@ the AA thing

i didn't remember if it was Kira (in the Freedom) or the AA who started firing into the water to cause tidal waves flipping Orb and EA ships over, which i asked to be corrected on if i was wrong

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by monster

Actually, if Kira only targets the head and limbs, then the likelihood of those mobile suit pilots dying as a direct result of Kira's actions is slim to none.

At best, you might have an incident like Heine's death, but he was killed because he didn't pay attention to Stella's action, not because Kira cut the Gouf's arm.

Even Auel, whose Abyss had its primary thrusters destroyed, and Athrun, whose Saviour was cut in several parts, could survive. And most mobile suits that Kira fired at would have had less damages than those two did. Especially by the time of Destiny, when most mobile suits had sustained flight capability.

Losing limbs may have a lower chance, but still a chance nonetheless, but that would depend on the kind of damage each MS takes as a result and I highly doubt that every single shot Kira made on every MS was exactly the same, non-lethal spot, meaning some could've sustained the type of limb loss that lead to the MS being destroyed while others may not have because the damage wasn't so severe. We'll never know how many were what.

But if the damage alone doesn't do them in, then other things can still be applied too, as mentioned.

Every Gundam series has both; some MS lose limbs, but still end up blowing up while others are lucky enough to lose multiple limbs or even end up 95% trashed up, but still remaining usable, able to be repaired, or just remained intact to a degree that the pilot lives, etc.

Big examples like the Neue Ziel in 0083, the GP01 in 0083, Shiro's Ground Combat Gundam in 08th MS Team, the Gundam Alex in 0080, the Gundam Mark II and Zeta Gundam in ZZ, the Wing Gundam at the end of Gundam Wing (though that's a HUGE stretch), the Vayeate after the first hit from the Zero in Gundam Wing (it was the 2nd shot that did it in), the Gundam X after fighting the Bertigo in Gundam X, and so on.


Kira's and the Archangel's interference in the battle that caused all the chaos and confusion in the first place is what directly lead to Heine's death at Stellar's hands. While, yes, Heine losing his focus wasn't a smart thing, wouldn't practically anyone in a similar situation? You're on a mission, in the middle of a battle against an enemy force. Then, suddenly, you start taking fire from a 3rd party force that just barges its way in without any previous knowledge of it, and you have no clue where they came from, who's side they're on, what their intentions are, and so on, so now you possibly have 2 enemies to deal with now instead of 1, thus forcing you to divide your attention.

This is exactly what Athrun was talking about those times he argued with Kira about their presence being unnecessary. If Kira and the Archangel had never shown up, chances of Heine being caught off-guard like that would've been much, much lower because he would be more focused on the mission and his opponents at hand.

[Revolutionist]

lol, good to see the old "Kira killed Heine" debate is still alive 7 years later XD

Heine died because he was voiced by TM Revolution. get over it guys.

[winter45]

@Znozzy

If you know which episode i can look it up.


@RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Destroying any part of a tool or weapon reduces its overall efficiency. Any form or loss of efficiency in middle of a battle may lead to a fatal disaster.

@monster

I wont argue the point that kira aiming for specific non lethal parts may not directly kill the pilot. But i also would find it hard not to believe that off screen fatalities would occurred influenced from his actions by mechanical structural failures all the way to targets finishing off damaged suits.

Fakuda is very generous to remove such real battle dynamics that may or maynot hurt kiras reputation for minimal deaths amongst the main casts.


@Revolutionist

Its not necessarily important why heine died, but more importantly is how he died.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by winter45

@Znozzy

If you know which episode i can look it up.

i think it's either the tannhauser explosion episode or the Saviour get's cut apart episode, one of those, if that is any help

[Gundamx]

Your main question was

why does that matter? Kira killed people on all sides, the AA wasnt on anyones side when it arrived at the battlefield

Just to make sure,
You read this right?

Originally Posted by winter45
Alrighty..... How many ORB forces personal has kira directly killed? I can think of huge number of ZERO...

How many ZAFT personal has kira killed directly? I can safely say more than zero.

Conclusion using this data that i can easily presume that ORB personal safety have priority over ZAFT when neutralizing measures are taken in effect.

So why are you asking me this for 1 million times?

When I answer you for 1 million time that I was answering him?
Yes I answered him but he was the one who bring up the subject up.

next you change it to

Quoted you since you replied first, Kira caused the Tannhauser's explosion, which resulted in him killing the people around it, so Kira is responsible for killing those soldiers/workers/engineers

Given Kira's overall experience from SEED and whatnot, he HAD to know that there were people either in the Tannhauser manning it directly or at the very least people nearby that would be killed or gravely injured if he were to destroy it, yet he did it anyway and it resulted in those deaths

Huh? You do know that Kira have about zero% knowledge about Minerva right?
As far as he know it could be same as AA ( there is no soldier near AA main canon or was there? i can't remember).

In other word:

It would be manslaughter if you had no clue at all that there was someone behind that wall and the rock happened to kill them, but you had no intention of doing so. Like if you simply kicked the ball into the wall out of anger and not knowing any better.

P.S.: The experience he have from Seed = only for piloting he still didn't have any military training, yeah he is great pilot and know how to some use martial art but he can't even use gun in Seed and miss all of his shots in Destiny.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

@ the AA thing

i didn't remember if it was Kira (in the Freedom) or the AA who started firing into the water to cause tidal waves flipping Orb and EA ships over, which i asked to be corrected on if i was wrong

It didn't flip those ships over, they were merely moved out of their positions.

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Losing limbs may have a lower chance, but still a chance nonetheless, but that would depend on the kind of damage each MS takes as a result and I highly doubt that every single shot Kira made on every MS was exactly the same, non-lethal spot, meaning some could've sustained the type of limb loss that lead to the MS being destroyed while others may not have because the damage wasn't so severe. We'll never know how many were what.

Nevertheless, the amount of casualty is clearly much lower than had Kira decided to just kill his opponents.

Kira's and the Archangel's interference in the battle that caused all the chaos and confusion in the first place is what directly lead to Heine's death at Stellar's hands. While, yes, Heine losing his focus wasn't a smart thing, wouldn't practically anyone in a similar situation? You're on a mission, in the middle of a battle against an enemy force. Then, suddenly, you start taking fire from a 3rd party force that just barges its way in without any previous knowledge of it, and you have no clue where they came from, who's side they're on, what their intentions are, and so on, so now you possibly have 2 enemies to deal with now instead of 1, thus forcing you to divide your attention.

This is exactly what Athrun was talking about those times he argued with Kira about their presence being unnecessary. If Kira and the Archangel had never shown up, chances of Heine being caught off-guard like that would've been much, much lower because he would be more focused on the mission and his opponents at hand.

Except that's not really Kira's priority. His priority was to end the battle as quickly as possible with as few casualties as possible. And that's what Kira did. The fact that deaths still occur is just unavoidable simply because that's the nature of a battle.

Originally Posted by winter45

I wont argue the point that kira aiming for specific non lethal parts may not directly kill the pilot. But i also would find it hard not to believe that off screen fatalities would occurred influenced from his actions by mechanical structural failures all the way to targets finishing off damaged suits.

Fakuda is very generous to remove such real battle dynamics that may or maynot hurt kiras reputation for minimal deaths amongst the main casts.

I won't deny the possibility that deaths could still occur either directly or indirectly as a result of Kira's actions. This is still a battle after all, and Kira is operating a weapon. However, it is also undeniable that Kira's way of fighting does reduces the number of casualties given how many targets Kira can attack with the Freedom and the Strike Freedom.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

Your main question was

Just to make sure,
You read this right?

Yes, one tip for you is to re-read your own posts before you post them, a few of them havent made much sense.

So why are you asking me this for 1 million times?

because you keep replying without a good answer, calm down, and reply to what i'm actually writing instead of repeating " did you read what i said ".

Obviously i wouldn't have to ask you things one million times if you formulated it good the first time, yeah?

When I answer you for 1 million time that I was answering him?
Yes I answered him but he was the one who bring up the subject up.

next you change it to

Forum discussions are open discussions, you voiced your opinion, i voiced mine, if you don't want people to jump into your discussion, do it via VM/PM's

Huh? You do know that Kira have about zero% knowledge about Minerva right?
As far as he know it could be same as AA ( there is no soldier near AA main canon or was there? i can't remember).

The point he is trying to make that you don't seem to understand is that Kira knew there is people on battleships, if he shoots at the battleship he will kill people, seeing how kira has taken out plenty of battleships prior to that battle in Destiny

In other word:


P.S.: The experience he have from Seed = only for piloting he still didn't have any military training, yeah he is great pilot and know how to some use martial art but he can't even use gun in Seed and miss all of his shots in Destiny.

Military training? no. Experience from blowing up several mobile suits/Battleships? Yes.

Kira knew what he was doing, that's why he gave that little speech to have Lacus give him the Keys in Destiny Episode 14, he isn't the same little kid he was at the start of Seed, in Destiny Kira knew damn well what he would be doing if he sortied in the Freedom, he was fine with it

Originally Posted by monster

It didn't flip those ships over, they were merely moved out of their positions. Nevertheless, the amount of casualty is clearly much lower than had Kira decided to just kill his opponents.

Ah, my memory can be a bit foggy of destiny, i havnt seen it in several years, thanks for clearing it up.

And yeah, as i said in a previous post, Kira tries to avoid killing people, if he didn't heads would roll way too quick, they would run out of grunts to animate.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by Gundamx

Huh? You do know that Kira have about zero% knowledge about Minerva right?

Kira considering serving onboard a warship would of known the minimal amount of knowledge of a standard ship components layout and function. Such as engines, bridge, main and secondary batteries etc

He would of also known firing at any key component of a ship there will either be crew stationed nearby or directly at ship key component.

So no he wouldn't of known exactly where the crew would be, but would of known from basic knowledge that there will be crew stationed in close proximity.



@Monster

Dont think RX-78GP04G Gerbera is pointing out kira's priority, seems my take on his post is that Kira was more of a problem than a solution when he intervened in battles as the late intruder.

[monster]

Originally Posted by winter45

@Monster

Dont think RX-78GP04G Gerbera is pointing out kira's priority, seems my take on his post is that Kira was more of a problem than a solution when he intervened in battles as the late intruder.

My take of it is that Kira knows that Orb's government is the one who will have to stop Orb's involvement in the war. But, to appease Cagalli, he did what he could to end that battle quickly.

Basically, until Cagalli is willing to regain control of Orb's government, the only thing Kira could do for her at the moment was to try to lessen Orb's time in battle.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I mean. Kira and co. only seemed to keep making things WORSE in the long run with their actions.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by winter45

You still have missed my point...

ill elaborate.. It wouldnt matter if orb is winning. What does matter on AA crew minds that ORB must survive.

Regardless of orb situation (winning or loosing) If Minerva all the sudden gets the upper hand regardless outnumbered which concludes ORB defeat is imminent. AA will step in for ORBS favor. If AA cannot disable Minerva they will prioritize ORB safety at the expense of Minerva.

i think you proved my point better than i did. there is no doubt in my mind that orb is treated as the best thing out there in terms of being the most importank nation. orb role and actions were never really address the atitude was hey orb is wrong to join the earth forces and attack the minerva but hey dont defend yourselves because its orb. come on i set why cagalli would defend orb but lets be real here, its not easy to deal with but hello ORB WAS IN THE WRONG and as tough as it is too deal with THE MINEVA HAS EVERY FIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST THE ORB FORCES WHO TEAM UP WITH A GOVERMENT THAT HAS SET OUT COMMIT GENOICDE. if orb have joined the earth forces they are fighting for there policy. it all comes back to kira and the aa returing cagalli home, in orb she could done much more to stop all of the fighting as far as orb actions in the whole matter.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

That's one of the ways Kira and co. made things worse in the long-run. By kidnapping Cagalli from the arranged marriage to Yuuno, they took away the only real obstacle standing between the EA and control of Orb, but they didn't give ANY thought to that whatsoever. All they were thinking was, "Oh no! Cagalli is getting married to someone she doesn't love (a.k.a. not Athrun)! We have to save her!", and never even considered the fact that Cagalli was doing it so she could better PROTECT Orb and keep it OUT of the EA's control.

With Cagalli out of the way, it gave Yuuno free reign to ally Orb with the EA, thus making it a fair target for ZAFT to attack as it would not be an affiliate of their enemy, thus causing those battles in the first place.

While fans may not like it, Cagalli was trying to do the hardest adult thing by sacrificing her own love for Athrun by marrying Yuuno and taking responsibility as the head of Orb. She does the same thing near the end by giving up Athrun so that she could fully concentrate on Orb's well-being, again, as its leader.

[monster]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

i think you proved my point better than i did. there is no doubt in my mind that orb is treated as the best thing out there in terms of being the most importank nation. orb role and actions were never really address the atitude was hey orb is wrong to join the earth forces and attack the minerva but hey dont defend yourselves because its orb. come on i set why cagalli would defend orb but lets be real here, its not easy to deal with but hello ORB WAS IN THE WRONG and as tough as it is too deal with THE MINEVA HAS EVERY FIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST THE ORB FORCES WHO TEAM UP WITH A GOVERMENT THAT HAS SET OUT COMMIT GENOICDE. if orb have joined the earth forces they are fighting for there policy. it all comes back to kira and the aa returing cagalli home, in orb she could done much more to stop all of the fighting as far as orb actions in the whole matter.

I'm sorry, but you have no point. No one ever said Minerva couldn't defend itself against Orb's attack.

[Znozzy]

Indeed, Minerva was capable of pretty much obliterating the EA/ORB fleet with one tannhauser shot (assuming the Freedom didn't blow the tannhauser up though), if not obliterating, they would be capable of atleast inflicting major damage to the fleet straight infront of them


@ Monster, oh XD well, tannhauser point still stands

[monster]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Indeed, Minerva was capable of pretty much obliterating the EA/ORB fleet with one tannhauser shot (assuming the Freedom didn't blow the tannhauser up though), if not obliterating, they would be capable of atleast inflicting major damage to the fleet straight infront of them

I meant that no one ever said that Minerva didn't have the right to defend itself.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by monster

I'm sorry, but you have no point. No one ever said Minerva couldn't defend itself against Orb's attack.

thats not the atitude that charactera like kira and cagilli seem to have. look at there secret meeting with athrun. cagilli went on about how the minerva were fighting the orb forces, as i said before the same earth forces who set up the minvera as soon as they left orb. i mean any action you take against orb as far as fighting them goes according to kira and cagilli you are wrong. but its ok for orb to attack and try to destroy the minvera. cagilli and kira do not want anyone attacking orb no matter orb does, it seem to me that athrun kind of calls them out on it.

[monster]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

thats not the atitude that charactera like kira and cagilli seem to have. look at there secret meeting with athrun. cagilli went on about how the minerva were fighting the orb forces, as i said before the same earth forces who set up the minvera as soon as they left orb. i mean any action you take against orb as far as fighting them goes according to kira and cagilli you are wrong. but its ok for orb to attack and try to destroy the minvera. cagilli and kira do not want anyone attacking orb no matter orb does, it seem to me that athrun kind of calls them out on it.

Cagalli is a representative of Orb. Why would she not be on the side of Orb? That would be like complaining that Shinn is on the side of the Minerva.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

That's one of the ways Kira and co. made things worse in the long-run. By kidnapping Cagalli from the arranged marriage to Yuuno, they took away the only real obstacle standing between the EA and control of Orb, but they didn't give ANY thought to that whatsoever. All they were thinking was, "Oh no! Cagalli is getting married to someone she doesn't love (a.k.a. not Athrun)! We have to save her!", and never even considered the fact that Cagalli was doing it so she could better PROTECT Orb and keep it OUT of the EA's control.

With Cagalli out of the way, it gave Yuuno free reign to ally Orb with the EA, thus making it a fair target for ZAFT to attack as it would not be an affiliate of their enemy, thus causing those battles in the first place.

While fans may not like it, Cagalli was trying to do the hardest adult thing by sacrificing her own love for Athrun by marrying Yuuno and taking responsibility as the head of Orb. She does the same thing near the end by giving up Athrun so that she could fully concentrate on Orb's well-being, again, as its leader.

Yeah, Cagalli was TRYING to do what was the adult thing to do. Dunno if it'd have worked though - as I remember it, hadn't they sort of been pushing Cagalli into joining the EA before the wedding (which was their idea, anyway) with rather good success? If so, then Cagalli staying behind might not've mattered much, as Orb was by then already part of EA and Yuna & co'd probably just have told her to stay in the kitchen and make sammitches while the real pros made the politcal decisions (considering how weak she seemd to be against their, uh, powers of persausion before, it might've worked too) .

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

The EA had been trying to, but she always kept with her father's ideals of keeping Orb as a neutral nation and thought the marriage would allow her to have more leeway. But being so young and inexperienced, the pressure was obviously getting to her. But when she was taken out of the picture by Kira and co., that left Yuuno and the other EA there as the highest "authority" more or less that simply took over under the guise of "rescuing Cagalli" and such.

It's why, when Cagalli showed up again to stop the fighting, Yuuno was all insistent that she was an imposter since, if everyone knew it was really her, then they'd ditch him and the EA in an instant. Sadly, the logic in the fact that there was no proof it was really her overrode their minds.