Kanon - 2006 - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Shiroth]

Episode 09 was a heart destroyer, though i love how Kyoani are expressing Makoto's story into something beautiful. You can already see from the preview for the next episode that it'll be the end - it'll be interesting to see what form the show takes after her path has finished.

Hearing Kaze wo Matta Hi was the final destruction of my heart in this episode.

[Julius Firefocht]

I went teary-eyed at parts of this episode. Makoto is my favourite character and it just hurts to see what she is going through. It's 20 minutes of very emotionally painful animation.

Makes me wonder if I can survive next week. Better get the tissue cartons ready.

[Mephisto2k]

Makoto is my favourite too. This episode was just too good and sad. Now i remember this story arc from the old kanon anime again. But (somehow luckyly) i forgot how it turned out, while i know she will disappear for sure. Its so sad and im sure in the new anime in ep10 it will be even more sad.
Julius gotta get a tissue box for me too.
I hope I won't die from my heart getting torn into peaces right within my chest while watching ep10. ;_;

[Kaoru Chujo]

Very, very well done. So soft and subtle and sad. Seeing Yuuichi lose his sarcastic edge is nice. Too bad it takes such sadness. His relationship with Makoto is now such a thrill. Talk about "sad girls in snow."

Unlike Zaris, I didn't see any inconsistencies in the progress of her decline. And 14-year-old girls think about marriage. Especially, I imagine, if they are about to die. That part just ripped my heart out.

I did see a little simplification of the animation, but not to bring it down to the level of almost any other show.

[Zaris]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

as a side note, do you mean the "oedipe complex" for your psychology term?

Yeah, that's what houkoholic was going for. But Oedipus Complex is a psychological concept for boys wanting the exclusive love of their mothers. The condition for girls wanting it of their fathers is the Electra Complex.

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Spoiler for response to my earlier gripe:

I tend to look at it at a different way.

If you recall what the producer said - that Yuuichi is suppose to be a fatherly figure to the girls, then I think the proposal makes sense. I see it as not that Makoto has genuine male-female love/lust towards Yuuichi, but rather it's a child-father thing, sort of a daughter in her young age says she wants to marry her father so they can be forever, this is said not out of romantic love but out of innocense and family love, I'm pretty sure there's even a psychological term for this phase in childhood. If you look at it this way, then all the regression, the clinging to Yuuichi, and how Yuuichi treats Makoto, IMO all fits. I have to say it's actually a very interesting growth for both Yuuichi and Makoto as they move in exactly the opposite direction - Yuuichi grows from a bastard teenager brother-like figure to a fatherly figure, while Makoto regress from a bratty teenager to a kid of mental capacity of a 4 year old clinging to a father. In a way this also explains why a lot of people think that the sex scenes in the Kanon game felt tacked on, because Makoto's story was not so much about male-female romance.

As for the "fluctuations", I don't think it's out of place. Amano also talks alot about thoughts and emotions, that it's Makoto's desire that keeps her in the human form. In that particular scene we can easily appoint it to the reason that Makoto's strong desire and emotional state had given her that extra strength to mutter those words, whereas her everyday activity doesn't have as much baring on her mental state of mind because she's just having fun. I think this is due to the Buddism/Zen nature of Japanese culture that really emphasis on how the spiritual state of a being can overcome hardship, and in that proposal scene this is exactly what happened.

Yeah, I can clearly visualize where you're going with these ideas. My arguements were based on taking the words of the characters as serious and literal. I have no qualms with Yuuichi or Nayuki or any other episode. I like how he's changing from the jokester to revealing a more serious and concerning face. The frustrating part is how such a strong connection between the two could have happened. If we're ment to take those circumstances as strong and literal, I thus took the proposal scene literal as well. = |

Spoiler for the circumstances between Yuuichi and Makoto:

Treat a hurt leg and Yuuichi is suddenly the pal of the poor fox's life. With ten years of separation, she's still not over him. This is where I don't see things as concievable or believable. However, there are still questions to ask, such as "how long did Yuuichi and Makoto (fox form) stay together?" and "how intelligent/gifted are these foxes?". Having answers to these questions would put a lot of speculation at ease.

What interests me most is how people change over the course of a movie or a TV show. What kind of things can stir a person into doing something they never considered or would never do? These are the things many people watch for because change is evolution, to become better (or worse) than you were before. But I continue to look as Makoto as stagnant in the sense that she was destructive and unaware of her actions in the beginning, and she has become destructive (sort of) and unaware of her actions in the end. She was a burden then (pranks, wasting food, etc.) and she's a burden still.

Part of my frustration also stems from the fact that my hopes weren't entirely satisfied. It would've been nice to have had more scenes in between episode 8 and what resulted in episode 9. Maybe a date. I wanted to hear from Makoto what she felt about him. I wanted to hear it from her that she had changed or has become better than who she was before.

And now it's all too late...or so it seems.

[Cyz]

Looks like the anime is starting to switch to serious and dramatic mood. Well, I'm sure there would be some occassional comic relief but I think that it's going to be minimize for the following eps, but who knows no?

[ZeusIrae]

awful...............horrible,heart-breaking..........I this continue like this I don't know if I will be able to survive the 16 remaining eps.

Makoto slowly loosing her mental capabilities was painful to watch,the scene with Amano was powerfull.The worse for me was when I saw Makoto constantly playing with the bells on yuiichi's bed.I almost cried.

[panzerfan]

Sigh... this isn't a spoiler per se now, but it is taken from the game itself, at the moment that Yuiichi explains everything to the Minase.

Spoiler for Selection from January 26th, Tuesday (Makoto):

The moment that I've returned home, after making sure that Makoto is still asleep, I invited Akiko-san and Nayuko to the living room.
Following that I start to tell them everything.
This is because anyone could see that Makoto's in critical condition, and merely standing on the sideline realistically speaking is impossible.
However no matter how cruel the reality of the situation is, I can only ask of them to ignore it.
That would be due to that the current symptoms on Makoto has no effective treatment in reality.
It would be a waste of precious time and efforts which are running out.
Just staying by her side is fine, I plead to them in this fashion.
After having listened to my words, none of them seems to get it.

N: She's human.
N: Not only can she speak, she can walk on two legs.
Y: She has become unresponsive.
Y: She is not like a human.
N: That... wouldn't that be symptoms that you would get a doctor to look over?
Y: Please don't do that no matter what.
Y: That would mean that I can't be with her.
A: ...
Akiko-san, who has not said a word until now stands up.
N: Mom, what is it?
A: Makoto is inside the room right?
She asks me while totally ignoring Nayuki.
Y: She is in my room, sound asleep.
A: Really.
I am not sure if Akiko-san has heard a satisfactory answer from my mouth, for she seldomly shows an expressionless look.
She left after having said that one word. Nayuki and I follow.

Kneeling over the side of Makoto who is still deep in slumber, Akiko-san touches her cheek.
A: Hmm... it really is that child from that time...
Akiko-san knows. She knows of that baby fox, who was only here for a short time.
I planned to hid it in my room, but I was only a child then.
Even if I was careful about it, given that Akiko-san who was already an adult,
all of this must have been just so obvious that it is actually funny.
M: Auu~
Makoto lets out a cry while deep asleep. Maybe she is sleeptalking.
Her hand slips from her thigh at the same time, and her wrist rings with the chime of the bells.
A: Bells...
Akiko holds onto her wrist.
A: Yuiichi-san gave this to her right?
Y: Yea.
A: ... this child loves the chime of the bell.
Y: Ahh?
A: Didn't you give this to her for that reason?
Y: No. It's because she... keeps insisting on wanting this.
A: Really.
A: Then Makoto really is that child.
A: I at the time had bells tied to my wallet.
Akiko touches her head, no doubt in recollecting the event.
A: Going out on errand was a bit troublesome.
A: Everytime that I take out the wallet, she would come down the stairs and follow me on my side.
Y: Really... I didn't know that.
A: No wonder that her parents are nowhere to be found.
That sentence indicated that she has accepted everything that I have said, that unbelievable truth.
If Akiko-san also has memories between her and Makoto, then for her to think along the same line as I might be likely so.
Even if it is beyond belief, once coming face to face with Makoto, you feel that you have to accept the unacceptable.
Akiko stares at Makoto's face for some time before she suddenly stands up.
A: It's about time that I prepare dinner.
N: Ahh, what is for dinner? I will lend a hand.
The mannerism for both of them have returned to normal. Seeing them like this makes me want to thank them from the bottom of my heart,
given that they have set the ideal condition that I hope for the most right now.

[Skyfall]

Hm... imo not the best of episodes. To me it felt slightly rushed - the mental degradation of Makoto happened a bit too fast. But then again they have already stretched the Makoto arc too long imo, so it is sort of time to get it over with. Animation was a bit worse than usual. Of course it was still very good, but not the usual KyoAni.

One thing this episode failed to do completely for me - squeeze any kind of emotions out of my being. Maybe because the ep felt rushed, maybe because Makoto is my least favorite girl of the show, but either way i did not feel sad, tho this ep was obviously intended to be one. I think i felt more sorry for Amano than Makoto The most impactful scene of Makoto was her playing with the bells on her hand - truly animal-like.

The degradation of Makoto to the stage where she can not say anything more than "Auuu" happened too fast, and lost impact because of it imo. (At least for me). SO far this seems pretty far from Air in terms of emotions, but it might be too early to judge. Lets see if "requiem" will pack a punch. (Then again i am most certainly not the most emotional person, and this, coupled with the fact that i kinda dislike Makoto, might be the cause of it)

I could feel for Yuuichi though, and i can understand the situation he is in - he knows what is happening to Makoto, yet he can't do anything about it besides being nice to her as her end slowly(or not so slowly) approaches.

Oh, and to whomever said that it's weird that Makoto proposed to Yuuichi - it's most certainly not. It's obvious that it is not sexual atention she is seeking(no kidding, Sherlock ), but instead it simply expresses her wish to stay by Yuuichi's side. Especially considering the story he just finished reading where at the end 'marriage' = staying together forever, so it is not strange at all for her to say that under the circumstances. (Heck, i was even expecting her to say something like that by the time Yuuichi finished reading, and i have no previous knowlidge about Kanon)

In some ways this ep felt...lacking... or almost boring(perhaps because the events were highly predictable), tho i am fully aware that this might be caused by the excessive amount of Makoto(who is not exactly my favorite character ), tho i highly doubt that, because i do not tend to judge anything from the POV of "my favorite/least favorite character". Everything works for me as long as it all cliks together, but somehow this ep failed to connect. Gave it an 8/10.

Originally Posted by Vexx

gah.. my chest already hurts and I haven't even seen the episode yet.
Must... get... some... air... ... o wait, aieee!

I don't think that getting a dose of "Air" is going to solve this particular problem :P Hm...on the other hand - if the symptoms appeared out of worry for Makoto watching Air will definitely fix that part - you will no longer think about Makoto (tho the pain in chest is not guaranteed(sp?) to go away... in fact quite the opposite )

[panzerfan]

(Don't remind me of that. I was messed up really badly by seeing Haruko-san breaking down emotionally from the last three episodes of AIR... )

[Theclow]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Hm... imo not the best of episodes. To me it felt slightly rushed - the mental degradation of Makoto happened a bit too fast. But then again they have already stretched the Makoto arc too long imo, so it is sort of time to get it over with. Animation was a bit worse than usual. Of course it was still very good, but not the usual KyoAni.

One thing this episode failed to do completely for me - squeeze any kind of emotions out of my being. Maybe because the ep felt rushed, maybe because Makoto is my least favorite girl of the show, but either way i did not feel sad, tho this ep was obviously intended to be one. I think i felt more sorry for Amano than Makoto The most impactful scene of Makoto was her playing with the bells on her hand - truly animal-like.

The degradation of Makoto to the stage where she can not say anything more than "Auuu" happened too fast, and lost impact because of it imo. (At least for me). SO far this seems pretty far from Air in terms of emotions, but it might be too early to judge. Lets see if "requiem" will pack a punch. (Then again i am most certainly not the most emotional person, and this, coupled with the fact that i kinda dislike Makoto, might be the cause of it)

I could feel for Yuuichi though, and i can understand the situation he is in - he knows what is happening to Makoto, yet he can't do anything about it besides being nice to her as her end slowly(or not so slowly) approaches.

Oh, and to whomever said that it's weird that Makoto proposed to Yuuichi - it's most certainly not. It's obvious that it is not sexual atention she is seeking(no kidding, Sherlock ), but instead it simply expresses her wish to stay by Yuuichi's side. Especially considering the story he just finished reading where at the end 'marriage' = staying together forever, so it is not strange at all for her to say that under the circumstances. (Heck, i was even expecting her to say something like that by the time Yuuichi finished reading, and i have no previous knowlidge about Kanon)

In some ways this ep felt...lacking... or almost boring(perhaps because the events were highly predictable), tho i am fully aware that this might be caused by the excessive amount of Makoto(who is not exactly my favorite character ), tho i highly doubt that, because i do not tend to judge anything from the POV of "my favorite/least favorite character". Everything works for me as long as it all cliks together, but somehow this ep failed to connect. Gave it an 8/10.

Wow I felt the exact(to the letter) same way about this ep.

[New/Old]

Heh heh. It's too be expected that not everyone will like a certain girl. That's why there's five. Heh heh. Perhaps another arc will come your way that will suit your taste.

Makoto's a favorite of mine, so that may contribute to my positive behaviour on her arc, although I've been positive about Kanon from the start... Heh heh.

[Deathkillz]

@ skyfall ~ this is what happens when we are given time to think about what is going to happen...it is the knock on effect from the last ep when makoto's true identity was revealed and we all started to speculate in our heads thus causing a lessen impact on what actually happens in this ep...i still think that its a better idea to start the makoto "degradation" on the same ep that it was announced the truth...

for me i really loved this ep...my heart stopped a couple of time watching makoto going from bad to worse and every time it zooms to her being less human like...ie loosing the ability to speak
yuuichi is turning out to be really caring...which is really good development wise...hes gentle, caring and likable...they way he cares for makoto is her time of most need is displayed brilliantly...such as how you would care for a child...

the "i want to marry you" scene was close to getting me into tears if only the scene lasted a bit longer...i must say that makoto's voice is really heart wrenching at the end >.< 10/10 nevertheless

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by New/Old

Heh heh. It's too be expected that not everyone will like a certain girl. That's why there's five. Heh heh. Perhaps another arc will come your way that will suit your taste.

But that's the thing - i never go out screaming "zomg, this show sucks because my girl did not win!" (If i would, i would be screaming in all anime threads except Canvas 2, because my girl never wins ) - I am long used to it and not fanboyish enough(at least i would like to believe so) for it to effect my judgement. I hate Mitsuki(KGNE) with ever cell of my being, yet i actually felt sorry/sad for her at times. I certainly do not hate Makoto(only slightly dislike her), yet this still failed to get emotions out of me. It lacked impact. (tho this obviously is influenced to some degree wether you like the girl or not)

[Wandering_Youth]

Noooooo! Makoto!!! The poor thing.

I had a pretty *sad* moment the first time I saw the Kanon 2002 and now it's all coming back again. Must not...watch episode 10...must resist....

[puzk]

It's great how they included the piano pieces from Kanon/Air Re~Feel. The piano pieces does give some relief from the game OST background music.

[panzerfan]

The Winter Firework variation though seems to be an original.

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Hm... imo not the best of episodes. To me it felt slightly rushed - the mental degradation of Makoto happened a bit too fast. But then again they have already stretched the Makoto arc too long imo, so it is sort of time to get it over with.

Sorry to pick on you, but this is a bit of a contradiction, isn't it? That this ep was rushed, but the Makoto arc has gone too long. I suppose if we're comparative with the pacing of previous episodes, you're right, since they were all snail paced, but personally I think the slow pacing has been one of Kanon's real strengths since it's allowed the characters to be fleshed out through interaction. And I thought this episode was fine. They've already spent an entire episode on her degradation. There's only one thing left for this arc to come to its close, and that will happen in the next ep, it seems.

My issue with this ep is that the bonds between the other people in the family (Nayuki and particularly Akiko) and Makoto still haven't been fleshed out. Personally, I think they're stifeling the potential impact of

Spoiler:

Makoto's disappearance

if they don't take the time in the next ep to properly flesh out these relationships and make it feel like a real family, as it was in the 02 series. Next ep preview gives me hope this may happen yet.

[New/Old]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

But that's the thing - i never go out screaming "zomg, this show sucks because my girl did not win!" (If i would, i would be screaming in all anime threads except Canvas 2, because my girl never wins ) - I am long used to it and not fanboyish enough(at least i would like to believe so) for it to effect my judgement. I hate Mitsuki(KGNE) with ever cell of my being, yet i actually felt sorry/sad for her at times. I certainly do not hate Makoto(only slightly dislike her), yet this still failed to get emotions out of me. It lacked impact. (tho this obviously is influenced to some degree wether you like the girl or not)

Indeed, indeed. But that some degree may be the breaking point. That thin line that one is so close yet not so close at the same time. A deciding factor, perhaps not. But at all too soon can one sympathise with the person of person of person of persons. What does it all mean, what does it all mean? I can only say that be that it may I shall continue to keep onto my opinion and give a nod of respect to your opinion. A fine one, a fine line of thought at that is what I can say, even though I am of the dissent.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

Sorry to pick on you, but this is a bit of a contradiction, isn't it? That this ep was rushed, but the Makoto arc has gone too long.

Im fully aware how that sounds, i thought it is sort of contradicting when i wrote that myself, but was too lazy to think of an alternative way to put it Tho i believe most people get where i am coming from.(at least i would like to hope so :S) I believe they have dragged the Makoto arc a bit too long and now moved up the pace to get it done, but the increased pacing does not bound well with the pacing in the previous episodes.

And in no way am i complaining about the previous slow pacing - i enjoy it in this show to the fullest - it is the best thing to have in an emotional show. Hence my dissapointment with this ep - the emotional parts that are suposed to leave the biggest impact out of the current 9 eps get the rushed pacing, which does not exactly help with the emotional buildup.

But then again they have already stretched the Makoto arc too long imo, so it is sort of time to get it over with - the second half of that statement was meant more among the lines of what i believe the writers might be thinking, not my personal preference (if that made any sense ) - yes, i believe that the Makoto arc has been dragged out a bit too long(im afraid this will leave an impact one sōme other arc(s) ), but i don't think that rushing things will help it either.

...bleh, i gues i should go get some sleep because i am probably not making much sense right about now