2010-05-04, 23:21 | Link #9761 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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And none of them misinterpreted a knocking sound. Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were not involved with the knock. No one else existed inside the mansion And that knock refers to the action of standing directly in front of a door and hitting it with a hand.
Hmm... I don't like this idea, but lets check if it works The only requirement for the knock to be heard is that someone stand in front of the door and use their hand to make a knocking sound. Someone in the Dining hall, let's say it's Kyrie, stood in front of the door from inside the room and made a knocking sound that people heard. Kyrie then took a letter from her pocket and made it look like she picked up the letter from a crack in the door. With this the letter was never delivered to them from outside the room it was in someone's possession in the Dining hall the entire time.
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2010-05-04, 23:22 | Link #9762 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Quote:
I wouldn't say it's all but a few cases, but the middle twilights of EP1 and EP2 at least are much easier to explain using a theory like this. Quote:
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2010-05-04, 23:29 | Link #9763 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Quote:
Unless Kyrie was outside the mansion, it doesn't work. |
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2010-05-04, 23:33 | Link #9764 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Quote:
Let it be known that in addition to Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji, none of those in the dining hall made the knock. In this sense, 'knock' includes all direct, indirect, intentional, unintentional, and coincidental events that could create a knocking sound. guess it really doesn't work
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2010-05-04, 23:51 | Link #9765 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
Mind you, I don't see that as confirmation of Shkanon, just further playing with us just like Lambdadelta promises in the beginning of Ep5.
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2010-05-05, 00:03 | Link #9766 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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If I remember right didn't Shannon and Kanon come to the door to deliver tea and everyone was cheering after they entered? I think that was the reason for this red: Know that the letter never touched the serving cart. So shouldn't they have the ring before Shannon and Kanon entered the room?
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2010-05-05, 00:16 | Link #9767 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
Since Kanon is not 'the letter', and no letter existed in the first place, he can handle the serving cart all he wants and the red remains true. None of the red actually necessitates any letter to exist or knock to be heard -- all we hear about the letter in particular is 'never existed', 'never touched', 'never handled'... Well, it's easy to never handle a letter that was never there.
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2010-05-05, 00:48 | Link #9768 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
In fact, it only benefits the opposite: If we assume Shannon and Kanon to have both been in the dining hall when in fact one of them wasn't. However, they'd have to be somewhere that nevertheless fits the reds or can somehow be otherwise excluded. In the ep6 case, the failure to specifically define Shannon and Kanon in two different places does indeed keep Shkanon alive. However, the failure to specifically enumerate also benefits the opposite. I can't help but think Erika has been suspecting Shkanon for a while... or perhaps Bern has. |
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2010-05-05, 01:08 | Link #9769 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
If that is so, suspecting the existence of Shkanon, but not being able to directly confirm it sounds quite likely.
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2010-05-05, 08:41 | Link #9770 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Quote:
I've stated before (maybe not here though) that I hate manipulation of the red. I think the whole point of giving us the absolute truth shown through the red is so that we can accept it as true. However, this does not neccessitate the belief that the all the red is needed. Using this scene as an example, let me demonstrate. We're told in red that a letter could not have been placed infront of the dining hall by anyone available, so we're led to believe, by our trust in the red and by Ryuukishi leading us on by always saying that everything could be done by humans, that the letter was simply placed there by clever means. If instead, like Oliver suggested, we say there was never any letter to begin with, then all the red about the letter is real, but moot. The red is sort of like the boundaries of the games; it gives us the limits to what we can think up for solutions. But when the red is used like this, it expands the boundaries in the game in ways we don't need, and it only serves to confuse us. Another example is the uncertainty of Kinzo in Episode 5. We all know that Kinzo is dead, but that fact is left unknown to Erika, by some sense of amusement on Bern and Lambda's part. And when Kinzo was used in the red, it created an incorrect area of possibilities for her to use. |
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2010-05-05, 09:38 | Link #9771 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
In particular, I'm pretty sure that it has been used to create the Zombie Kanon, the Second Kinzo, and the fake letter. In all those cases, red repeatedly states that mistakes are impossible, but avoids saying that recognition has in fact occurred. Battler always goes with the assumption that it did and tries to twist the red to squeeze his explanation in, but playing with the red is dangerous -- once you successfully twist it to mean something else to stick your theory in, you no longer really have axioms to play with. It's actually structurally equivalent to the inverse of Battler's idea that 'if a murder has occurred, it is not actually a closed room'. If a room really is closed, then the murder did not actually occur, and someone is lying. Figuring out why they might be lying provides us with possible motives that can be used to unravel the rest. Quote:
Notice that Erika had to search Natsuhi's room before that where-is-Kinzo scene to recover Natsuhi's diaries, and has to have ignored whatever Kinzo she found there. P.S. I am also suspecting the Other Battler might have been created through some clever application of the same that I have yet to puzzle out. If you assume that the Zombie Kanon and the Ep4 Kinzo, instead of being cases of name trickery in red, are actually phantoms created through collective lying, the Other Battler remains the only certain case of possible name trickery in red. If we can figure out how it works without name trickery, red text becomes a far more reliable tool.
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2010-05-05, 11:49 | Link #9772 | |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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Is Erika stupid or something. In the end of ep6 she askes Beatrice to repeat. Among the people in the 'other room' not one of the people have more than one name.
There is no way Beatrice can say that in red. Shannon has two names.. Shannon and Sayo. Or maybe this is because of a horrible Atlas translation XD Quote:
Last edited by Laserworm; 2010-05-05 at 12:22. |
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2010-05-05, 12:23 | Link #9773 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
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2010-05-05, 14:42 | Link #9776 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Quote:
Maybe 'Sayo' is a lie? Gotta go back and check this... |
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2010-05-05, 15:03 | Link #9778 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Quote:
http://umineco.info/?%E8%B5%A4%E6%96...A9%B1%EF%BC%89 |
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2010-05-05, 17:31 | Link #9779 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Quote:
Erika: The cousins’ room was confirmed to be a closed room right up to the very end. Therefore, if Kanon was really in that room, escaping would be impossible! In other words, at the time of the sealing, Kanon wasn’t in the cousins’ room!! Kanon’s name is a temporary thing. His real name is still unclear! If, for example, his name was the same as someone in the neighboring room, there would be no contradiction with the confirmation of people in the neighboring room! In short, rather than being in the cousins’ room, he could have been in the neighboring room! Erika: The neighboring room was certainly sealed, but at the time of the logic error, only the seal on the door was confirmed to be intact. Therefore, there is a possibility that the seal on the window was broken. Kanon was in the neighboring room, and he escaped through that window…!! Beato: The people who were in the neighboring room at the time it was sealed were Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo. And, there were exactly five people in the neighboring room. No one other than the people corresponding to those five names existed! All names refer only to the actual people!!
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2010-05-05, 17:43 | Link #9780 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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And this is why I asked people many times not to bring up things when they don't totally understand. For all intent and purpose, please do not bring up "facts" and "theories", unless they are verified.
let alone facts, the context is very important, and red text isn't any exception.
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