True Tears - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

Ok, I found this episode interesting, but it's pretty difficult to take seriously. You know what my biggest gripe about this series is? It seems convinced that characters constantly doing 180s is character development. Ok, technically it is, but it's not very good character development.
<snip>
This would be about the most trite and cliched ending they could come up, but it's unfortunately also looking like the most likely. You know what's funny, though. Shinichiro has had several epiphanies during the series. None of them have transpired into any substantial changes in him or lingered with him for more than two episodes. He literally says things, and then forgets them shortly after. If this is how the story will end, it'll be meaningless, because he's demonstrated that he has no capacity for following through. It'll be like, "so why is this time different from the last time you had a similar epiphany?"

<snip>It started so incredibly well, but it's degenerated into rather contrived melodrama.<snip>

By the way, if you can say "I am a [insert name here] shipper", don't bother. Shippers have completely drowned out what little intelligent commentary there has been in this thread, and that's been the case for the last two or so eps as well. I am a Tomoyo shipper. SHINICHIROXTOMOYO 4EVR RAWWR! Can everyone else see why this is stupid?

My thoughts exactly, just the opposite of everything you said.

I have not seen 180 character development in this show (besides the mother), I do not think it is degenerating into a melodrama like the monstrosity of Myself;Yourself, these threads still contain very intelligent posts in my opinion (With no flaming which is quite remarkable), and as for the epiphany issue, I think it's already been drilled to death in this thread alone so I won't go into it.

I don't even feel like we're watching the same show, perhaps you can elaborate with examples of each of these things you're pointing out?

I mean lets take Shinchiro for example.

At the beginning he was not a very confident person who was flowing through life like everyone else, and he had a crush from his childhood on a girl who is living in his house. He meets a new girl who he starts to become friends with, she gives him confidence, and then he slowly starts to open up, defending Hiromi from his mother even! But then his hopes are shot down when she goes off with "I think you'd be the older brother." At this point he gives up and remembers the deal Jun made with him. He doesn't want to see Hiromi so sad so attempts to make her happy with making her date Jun. He gets into a relationship with Noe and starts to find a new found happiness. He even gets surprised by a peck on the cheek, he really starts gaining much more confidence and life and develops his picture book out of this new confidence. Then one day he sees Hiromi on a bike with Jun and gets worried, so he chases her and finds the crash. He obviously still cares about Hiromi so is caught up in the moment of relief and hugs her. Noe sees this and then starts to realize that Shinchiro may not like her.

So they go back and then (My one problem with the show, but only significant one) the mother does her 180 flip and takes care of Hiromi. Life seems to start getting better and Noe gets more depressed because she thought she found happiness, but apparently it was fake happiness. THEN hiromi decides to move out, Shinchiro is brooding over this so much and can't take the fact that she's moved out because of him. He chases her and then tells her that he is going to try and do everything right. Shinchiro next episode then starts to spend time with Hiromi and starts to feel strange in this new situation. He questions her if she has any problem with the #4 in a subtle way, he's still realizing his situation. Hiromi goes outside and starts to say things that Noe was saying to him earlier. He is caught up in emotion when suprise suprise, the kiss came. He wasn't prepared and felt guilty, didn't even go at it himself because he feels bad about his situation. Then the school game comes and he sees Hiromi getting tripped and Jun going on the court and doing the boy friend thing to do that Shinchiro himself didn't even do.

Shinchiro feels complacent with his situation, he can't even finish his picture book properly like he wanted to. Then he gets the call that Noe went missing. Noe gave him the power to write his picture book, a power that seems to have disappeared, so he wants to show Noe his book. Then the scene we get this episode at the beginning where he ends up stating "I superimposed Jibeta with myself." He realizes he's done nothing to make his situation in life any better, in fact he's made it worse. Things like the picture book, the dancing, Noe, and Hiromi. He only wants to do everything right, and he realizes that nothing he does is right. Now he's frustrated over what to do with himself and the next day finally decides where to start, and that is to talk to Noe. Then Hiromi stopped him, and told him how she told Noe to leave them alone. He doesn't know how to respond because he doesn't want to hurt her feelings, and he doesn't even know what exactly he's about to do and he chases Noe to the tree, and BAM.

This is the way I've seen it, he has not been a different character in my eyes.

[tejvenim]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

He gets into a relationship with Noe and starts to find a new found happiness. He even gets surprised by a peck on the cheek, he really starts gaining much more confidence and life and develops his picture book out of this new confidence.

That my biggest gripe about Noe. Noe contribute to Shin learning about confidence.

I dislike Noe in the beginning. Then the author let Noe steal the chance of Hiromi helping Shin gain confidence. Now I dislike Noe even more.

Since I like Hiromi and Aiko, I'll rather that the writer can rewrite the story so that Shin learn about confidence from Hiromi and Aiko and learn nothing from Noe. I'll rather that Noe is a minor insignificant character because I don't care about Noe or her tears.

[monir]

I love reading these weekly episode discussion threads for this show. They attract some very intelligent posts every week. Yeah, I agree that the show has a few problem, but as I've come to accept that hardly any series is immune from the dreaded run to the conclusion, the most difficult portion/phase every story needs to go through. Lack of a solid run to the conclusion always seem to plague shows that, otherwise, have been pretty impressive through out. Sometime I feel a show could have done without 1 or 2 episodes than the predetermined episode count which can help tighten the pace to a fluid finish. In this case, however, the only episode I would take out for the most part is where NoexShin gets a whole episode after Shin's confession.

Yes, Shin's determination at pushing for a change does feel inconsistent where there are hardly any changes to account for, but I seem to be under the impression after reading a few response that Shin is promising to change the lives of others such as Noe/Hiromi. On the contrary, I think whatever changes he is calling forth and seemingly preparing himself to that mindset, is to bring change to his own life. I strongly believe that after watching episode 12 and the reiteration of the dialogues for the changes that needs to be there which he creepily utters to himself out loud while his mom/dad sleeps in the other room. <that was really creepy!> He seems to believe that he has gone-with-the-flow all his life. Everyone else decided for him or driven him toward on how he should channel his energy on anything he will need to do, i.e. Ai's confession to him and the subsequent kiss, having to go out with Noe as a consequence for a self-initiated blunder, Hiromi's kiss... aka.. her formal declaration to Shin about her love for him, his participation in the dance ceremony. Now he seems to be making a stand for himself, and to drive home the point that he is ready to decide for himself. He does not want to perform any more follow up act on decision made by others, or as one of you have pointed out.. he wants to be proactive rather than reactive... so he may have full control toward how he lives his life.

On that viewpoint I believe I understand why he chose not to move any further with Hiromi until he resolved the problems he created for himself and feels responsible for involving others such as Noe. I also think he is moving toward the right direction. If he went ahead with Hiromi without resolving the situation with Noe, he would just be following the same path his father probably had walked on which ultimately left his mother bitter whenever the subject of Hiromi's mother came to be in there lives. As one of you have already aptly pointed out, Hiromi is just like Shin's mother. Hiromi will maintain her nagging fear that she may eventually loose Shin to Noe if there is no resolution reached between Noe and Shin. I think that's why Shin is sidestepping Hiromi for the moment. He is doing all of this on his own choosing, just like Jibeta.

How that will play out? I've no clue, but Noe better not die.. or bloods will flow.

Originally Posted by whitemoon

What would that be *_*?

A little bit of background on Shin's mother>father>Hiromi's-mom that would ultimately explain what really transpired in the past which, eventually, lead her to act toward Hiromi the way she did. We felt the past was important and might have been compared to the present love-triangle among Noe > Shin > Hiromi. The exploration of the past might have helped explain the changes in Shin's mom attitude toward Hiromi near the end which, otherwise, seemed abrupt.

Perhaps, there will be a parallelism drawn between these two respective love-triangles that would help draw a vague picture for those of us who wanted a bit of recollection on the past event. Perhaps....

[Theowne]

Originally Posted by tejvenim

Then the author let Noe steal the chance of Hiromi helping Shin gain confidence.

That doesn't really make much sense. Hiromi and Shin have known each other since childhood and other than that one year while they were under the "Shin's mother's lie", there was ample opportunity which apparently never really took hold. Regardless, they also had such an opportunity after episode 10 where Noe was away, and yet as we see, Shin still has Noe in his thoughts and isn't able to really let go even though contact with Noe from Shin's end was nonexistent for the last two episodes. Taking a look at the progress of the story so far, Noe is really the only one who has impacted Shin's character development heavily after what seems, according to the writers, to have been a relatively static number of years prior.

On another topic, I also disagree about these threads being "shipping wars". I think after the first few pages, the shipping taunts tend to die down and the real discussion takes place and I haven't seen any worthless posts for quite a bit.

[Kaoru Chujo]

One of the best anime episodes I have ever seen.

I just saw it, and I'm glad I didn't get a chance to see it last weekend, since I don't think I could have stood waiting a week for the next ep.

I haven't yet read much of the discussion here, but I just wanted to give a pure first impression. The only comment I will make is that I don't see a rush to any conclusion. I love the fact that the dance is over and the conclusion is yet to come.

I dont see a single problem with this fast, complex, and emotionally power-packed episode -- except maybe a bit of off-model drawing -- but I will read and consider. On first viewing, it seems to me that all that was hidden (but we knew was there) is finally emerging into view. On Saturday we will know what is going on in the two scenes in the OP I have long wondered about: what is Miyokichi so shocked at, and what is Shin's mother turning away from.

The voice highlight for me was Nazuka Kaori's Hiromi. Wow. My heart breaks. And I still don't know who Shin will end up with, if anyone. I do know that he is already a bigger person than he was before.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by monir

On that viewpoint I believe I understand why he chose not to move any further with Hiromi until he resolved the problems he created for himself and feels responsible for involving others such as Noe. I also think he is moving toward the right direction. If he went ahead with Hiromi without resolving the situation with Noe, he would just be following the same path his father probably had walked on which ultimately left his mother bitter whenever the subject of Hiromi's mother came to be in there lives. As one of you have already aptly pointed out, Hiromi is just like Shin's mother. Hiromi will maintain her nagging fear that she may eventually loose Shin to Noe if there is no resolution reached between Noe and Shin. I think that's why Shin is sidestepping Hiromi for the moment. He is doing all of this on his own choosing, just like Jibeta.

That makes a lot of sense to me; I'm inclined to agree with that interpretation. That fits in perfectly with the Jibeta realization of this episode, and the idea that it's perhaps not Shinichirou, but Noe that is able to fly.

And if that's indeed the case, it lends itself perfectly to your suggestion that the episode should address that lingering issue regarding the past and the triangle between Shinichirou's parents and Hiromi's mother. I suggested a few weeks ago that a resolution on that issue may come as we get closer to the festival (as it's connected to that event). Your interpretation certainly supports that theory.

If they're able to resolve all of those issues, including Noe's tears, in the final episode in a cohesive and comprehensive way, I think I would certainly be quite pleased with the show's plot (and the issue of the past that was "left hanging" would all make sense).

[tejvenim]

Originally Posted by Theowne

That doesn't really make much sense.

It makes perfect sense.

Just because I have differenet opinions that yours doesn't mean that my opinions do not make much sense.

[YunaX]

HIROMI MUST WIN!
I can't believe our great hero chose Noe...

Argh, i want hiromi to win
honestly, Noe, to me its like a phycopath-like girl who followes too much on her feelings and eventually, gets really annoying and stubborn

[Westlo]

If True Tears was a wrestling fued they just sucked all the Hiromi marks in by having Noe do her finishing move (have SHin run to Noe) to Hiromi on the final RAW (12) before the PPV (13 END), the smarks know the score though, whoever gets knocked out on the last show before aPPV generally wins the actual PPV match.

[oompa loompa]

Originally Posted by Westlo

If True Tears was a wrestling fued they just sucked all the Hiromi marks in by having Noe do her finishing move (have SHin run to Noe) to Hiromi on the final RAW (12) before the PPV (13 END), the smarks know the score though, whoever gets knocked out on the last show before aPPV generally wins the actual PPV match.

hahah amen to that.. i know im overdoing it, but hiromi should finish noe off in grand fashion. in a CAGE ..

[AznSoulBoy]

Guess what? Tomorrow is the answer!!!!

[Tatiana Razajev]

Originally Posted by YunaX

HIROMI MUST WIN!
I can't believe our great hero chose Noe...

It's too early to say he chose Noe. In fact I highly doubt he's chosen Noe. More likely he's going over there to comfort her, break up with her, and then run over to Hiromi and set things right with her. In other words as stated before, he's giving Noe a few hours of his life at best, but he'll likely give Hiromi years of his life. That's the main thing Hiromi fans need to remember.

Honestly the slim 1% chance Noe has is based on the ideal of two desires. In other words the first desire is one you truly long for. The second is one you desire only because you can't have it. If Hiromi turned out to be the second then Noe would have a chance. However she's more likely the former.

Still truth be told if you stop and think about it at this point wrapping up Hiromi really boils down to the following. Shin wrapping up the "sandal" thing as a gesture. Shin talking to her and making it clear to her that he's dedicated to her. The two confessing their love to each other and a dramatic hug/kiss/whatever.

Also truth be told considering the fact Shin constantly avoided Noe lately and the fact despite that Hiromi was extremely worried. Well to be honest if you ask me, Shin running to Noe( to likely break up with her) will be a test for Hiromi. If she's going to fall apart over a scenario like this. Then in some ways their relationship may be doomed before it even truly starts.

The main hope is that Noe will accept the break up and move on. While Hiromi will learn to be stronger than she currently is. She's shown signs of improvement in the later episodes, but she needs to fully confirm that she's grown. That she won't fall apart when things get tough. Because as it stands while Shin x Noe could easily come off as a pity ending, there's a chance if done in correctly Shin x Hiromi could also come off the same way. Which is why regardless of the choice it needs to be done right.

[Theowne]

Originally Posted by tejvenim

It makes perfect sense.

Just because I have differenet opinions that yours doesn't mean that my opinions do not make much sense.

Er...okay...If one person can have the opinion that the "author let Noe steal the chance of Hiromi helping Shin gain confidence", then why can't another person have the opinion that this idea doesn't make much sense and then proceed to explain that statement according to the story? If you read the rest of my post I went on to state why I felt that way....Perhaps you thought I was responding to the "I dislike Noe" part of the post..I've edited my post to quote an exact sentence to prevent further confusion....

Originally Posted by Tatiana Razajev

Because as it stands while Shin x Noe could easily come off as a pity ending, there's a chance if done in correctly Shin x Hiromi could also come off the same way.

Between a Noe and Hiromi ending I don't believe that Noe's would be any more of a pity ending....although obviously Noe has been getting worse and worse ever since she stopped seeing Shin, an important plot point brought up by Shin himself is that really, Noe has been an important catalyst in his development and the movement in the story. I don't think he has had the same opinion of Hiromi. And although Noe has been sinking and a Noe end would be something of a "rescue", I don't think it's an different for Hiromi after what we saw throughout episode 12..

[Lost-Wisdom]

Spoiler for Episode 12:

This episode kinda cracked my heart a bit, especially the part where Noe jumped from the tree and he witnessing it. Although this part really symbolizes from the 1st episode, where he saved Noe when she was stuck from the tree. Yet this episode shows Noe jumping off, but with him not saving her, but just watching from a view.

[Irenicus]

Damn damn damn! How stupid could I be!? I stopped watching the show after episode 5 because I didn't want to suffer through all the cliffhangers week-after-week, and now I started again assuming that episode 12 was the last...

...I think I just got myself into the worst cliffhanger of all, worst because I was marathoning it earlier and next episode is the last.

Moreover, I'm totally frustrated over who Shin-chan's going to choose. The producers are totally unfair -- episode 10 was almost a perfect declaration of Hiromi's victory...except for the nagging idea that what I thought was 2 (actually 3; see above) episodes' worth of twists and turns coming and they can't possibly do a denouement for that long, which makes it a perfectly obvious and painful feint for a Hiromi fan to indulge. The next two episodes are as anyone could predict, Shin isn't moving forward and Noe lingers in his mind, with airtime [something precious in romance anime -- unless your name is Canvas 2 :P] increasingly devoted to the girl who everyone wrote off in the romantic conclusion of episode 10...

I'll be so pissed if it's Noe who won in the end though. If it's her, him, and Hiromi at the start of the show (when they were all emo and stagnant until Noe lightens the world up), she probably would've won his heart and won convincingly; but this is after all the development between Shin and Hiromi, which would look really wrong if for some reason things like the romantic catch-up of episode 10 are written off like it never happened...

I mean, he went through that "have a girl in front of you but cares about another" phase already when he "dated" Noe with a heart full of Hiromi. If he chooses Noe this time then the preceding development will be an exact repeat of that and Mr. "I'll Change Myself" Shin'ichiro will be going positively nowhere, an absolutely unsatisfying conclusion to the tale.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

Damn damn damn! How stupid could I be!? I stopped watching the show after episode 5 because I didn't want to suffer through all the cliffhangers week-after-week, and now I started again assuming that episode 12 was the last...

...I think I just got myself into the worst cliffhanger of all, worst because I was marathoning it earlier and next episode is the last.

Moreover, I'm totally frustrated over who Shin-chan's going to choose. The producers are totally unfair -- episode 10 was almost a perfect declaration of Hiromi's victory...except for the nagging idea that what I thought was 2 (actually 3; see above) episodes' worth of twists and turns coming and they can't possibly do a denouement for that long, which makes it a perfectly obvious and painful feint for a Hiromi fan to indulge. The next two episodes are as anyone could predict, Shin isn't moving forward and Noe lingers in his mind, with airtime [something precious in romance anime -- unless your name is Canvas 2 :P] increasingly devoted to the girl who everyone wrote off in the romantic conclusion of episode 10...

I'll be so pissed if it's Noe who won in the end though. If it's her, him, and Hiromi at the start of the show (when they were all emo and stagnant until Noe lightens the world up), she probably would've won his heart and won convincingly; but this is after all the development between Shin and Hiromi, which would look really wrong if for some reason things like the romantic catch-up of episode 10 are written off like it never happened...

I mean, he went through that "have a girl in front of you but cares about another" phase already when he "dated" Noe with a heart full of Hiromi. If he chooses Noe this time then the preceding development will be an exact repeat of that and Mr. "I'll Change Myself" Shin'ichiro will be going positively nowhere, an absolutely unsatisfying conclusion to the tale.

the writers got you! That is exactly what they wanted.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by oompa loompa

hahah amen to that.. i know im overdoing it, but hiromi should finish noe off in grand fashion. in a CAGE

No need for AGE in the CAGE, more like HELL in the CELL

Originally Posted by Theowne

Between a Noe and Hiromi ending I don't believe that Noe's would be any more of a pity ending....

The way it's going I would expect you to a argue against someone who said Hiromi has longer hair than Noe... I kid I kid.

[Theowne]

Originally Posted by Westlo

The way it's going I would expect you to a argue against someone who said Hiromi has longer hair than Noe... I kid I kid.

Every single opinion I've stated I've followed with the reasons I believe it...... If you believe that my opinions don't have a basis then you could easily respond to the examples/support I provide for them...

The worst thing is all of this stuff about "winning" and "losing". True Tears is a good show with some great characters and I want to see all of the characters to be treated properly in the ending regardless of pairing.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by AznSoulBoy

Guess what? Tomorrow is the answer!!!!

The suspense, can't wait for the final episode. >_<

Spoiler for Just a random thought on Jibeta..:

I think Jibeta jumping off the cliff on Shin's picture book...it's a complicated symbolism. Shinichiro (I hate this guy) said himself on this episode that he thinks he symbolizes Jibeta. But it can be implied that Jibeta also symbolizes Noe - telling herself that she didn't understand things clearly in Shinichiro's heart and she wanted to feel how it is when one flies. Noe jumping off the tree is the same as Jibeta jumping off the cliff in the picture book - at first they don't have interest to fly but became curious on how it feels to fly.

[YunaX]

guys....
I dont know if this is true, but according to the official site
next ep (prolly) will be aird on the 7th of April :S

http://www.truetears.jp/index.html

maybe its just a technical error :P