The Ontology of Haruhi Suzumiya

[PastPrime]

I was thinking that you could consider both Haruhi and Yuki to be magical girls, with Yuki's powers limited by the requirements of equivilent exchange and Haruhi's powers being unlimited.

[panzerfan]

Not exactly... but it's interesting to say that.

/*moved some ep10 discussion to here just because it's more appropiate here*/

Originally Posted by myself, on what Yuki said of her peers

Well Nagato actually confirmed that there is more than 1 agent of the data entity on earth (so she's not technically the 'sole' observer). Data entity exists outside of the bound of space-time, making this entity perhaps divine from the eyes of human being. Their thought can go from past to present and future simutaneously, however they could not further themselves since they cannot get through this knowing all stumbling block.

Originally Posted by tritoch

I thought that they can't read the data before 3 years ago. So they exist now and in the future but their past is limited to that 3 years ago where Haruhi created them to be? When I mean 3 years, 3 years from how Yuki stated it.

Originally Posted by SlashZero

You're mixing up Mikuru's story with Yuki's.

Yuki herself was created three years ago to observe Haruhi after the IDE noticed a explosion of new information coming from Haruhi, but they existed and had access to past more than 3 years ago; whereas Mikuru's future people found out they couldn't travel more than 3 years into the past (from Kyon's standpoint).

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi, on Yuki's explaination

So does that makes the Data Entity similiar to V'ger from Star Trek The Motion Picture?

Originally Posted by Vexx, clearification of mixing up ideology of the factions involved

There are three factions, each of whom has a COMPLETELY different theory about the phenomenon that is Haruhi ... some of ya'll are mixing them together.

From the Data point of view, they've always been around and Haruhi is just a datafield anomoly.... from the timetravel view, she's a locking kink on spacetime that prevents them from going more than 3 years prior like they used to. .... from the esper point of view, its impossible to tell wtf is happening for all they know she created the universe and the false memories before it 3 years ago - all they can do is mitigate any reality shifts she might generate (let sleeping gods lie).

Originally Posted by imadragon, in response to Vexx

But none of their theories clash, so they can all be right...or wrong.
Itsuki only said that the world might be created only 3 years ago. He's uncertain of it. Only thing certain is, Haruhi is god-like.

Originally Posted by Vexx, responding to imadragon

Correct... all the theories may be all facets of the same "jewel" (re: The Many Faces of God by Campbell) or just reflections on the cave wall from the firelight.

I'm almost surprised one of my favorite Arthur C. Clarke proverbs isn't in the OP background text and equations drifting around (paraphrase):

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Just imagine someone awakened from only 200 years ago (hell, 100 years ago) and they'll awaken to a world of Pandemonium, full of demonic forces, witchcraft, people conversing with unseen voices, music from hell,
Actually... I could collar the average Joe Moron on the street today and most of the technologies around them are "magic".

It is not known whether or not the data entity bother with time travelling with matter and what kind of effect the time quake has on them. It has been remarked by Yuki that the Time Travellers from Mikuru's era use a comparibly 'rudimentary' method of time travel which leaves some 'wake'. The data entity exists in the past, present and future and they merely need to pass data inbetween instead of bothering with the physical matter (think of it in Gnostic term as abandonment of the Hylic when one madeup of pure Gnosis)

Data entity is somewhat like V'ger but not really, as they have trancended the plane of matter and they exist as information. Yuki might be closer to V'ger actually. Data entity doesn't question its existence but are concerned of its survival and evolutionary standstill.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Data entity is somewhat like V'ger but not really, as they have trancended the plane of matter and they exist as information. Yuki might be closer to V'ger actually. Data entity doesn't question its existence but are concerned of its survival and evolutionary standstill.

I suppose you could speculate that Data Entity might be something like "post-evolved" V'ger (transcending the illusion of material existence)... Yuki acting much like Delta's reconstituted form and providing some interface to humans.

It is difficult to portray such an entity --- clearly when its supposed to be "integrated" yet there are factions within concealing data from each other (see ep 10).

[panzerfan]

Well the inner workings of the data entity isn't something that Kyon bothered to ask Yuki about... he's having a hard time as it is getting a solid grasp of 3 factions and moreover, how SOS- Brigade will come out of everything short of the kitchen sink being hurled at them.

To further complicate matter, Itsuki inadvertantly confirmed the existence of more than one alien race out there (by his comment that the organization has contacted more than just data entity) . This brings forth another layer of 'invisible hand' to think of.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Well the inner workings of the data entity isn't something that Kyon bothered to ask Yuki about... he's having a hard time as it is getting a solid grasp of 3 factions and moreover, how SOS- Brigade will come out of everything short of the kitchen sink being hurled at them.

To further complicate matter, Itsuki inadvertantly confirmed the existence of more than one alien race out there (by his comment that the organization has contacted more than just data entity) . This brings forth another layer of 'invisible hand' to think of.

Well, we already know there are more aliens. Even the cave cricket classifies as a different alien race, even if it was a failed evolutionary branch.

But I think I can safely claim that Yuki's faction is the most powerful of them all. Thus, there may be trouble caused by a random alien event here and there, but none will be anything Yuki can't handle. I guess I am saying the other aliens would not be influential enough to consider themselves a faction.
Look at it this way; I don't know if Mikuru is more at ease about it yet or not, but at the beginning she was certainly terrified of Yuki. There is no reason to believe the other alien races would be any less fearful and don't stay away as a consequence.

[panzerfan]

well true... although I am still somewhat trying to think of the Snow Mountain event wondering at this point whether or not if there's more than just inner factions of the data entities involved ... it makes sense from both standpoint as it's not conflicting to imagine that the creation (Yuki) is not greater than the creator (data entity) just as it is to imagine that there's alternate faction stepping in and one that is comparible at least to Yuki.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

well true... although I am still somewhat trying to think of the Snow Mountain event wondering at this point whether or not if there's more than just inner factions of the data entities involved ... it makes sense from both standpoint as it's not conflicting to imagine that the creation (Yuki) is not greater than the creator (data entity) just as it is to imagine that there's alternate faction stepping in and one that is comparible at least to Yuki.

Yuki isn't invincible herself, that much we know.

But even if another race manage to overpower the singular Yuki, all that would merely mean they had declared war on the entire data entity society. I am inclined to believe the Data Entities is the lone superpower in the galaxy. The greatest threat to Yuki, other than Haruhi on a rampage, would be from within her own faction.

[panzerfan]

There is validity in this argument of data entity as sole superpower since Koizumi's postulate stated essentially that the only one that matters are those that are showing up in the SOS clubroom and are regular members, thus eliminates the relevence to any other alien parties that might exist. Of course that postulate does not fully address the matter concerning the status of Tsuruya-san completely.

It's still in the open right now though. Who are we to jump into a solid conclusion when Kyon himself is open to it still and he only concludes that his own sanity is intact in the midst of all this.

[Shinoto]

Your all String theorist lol

[Vexx]

actually, I'm more attracted to "information field" views of matter and energy ... but string theory is good for assembly programming

[panzerfan]

Speaking of String theory...

Based on Big Mikuru's presence in Kyon's time alongside Small Mikuru and Mikuru's explaination, it seems that Tanigawa's universe really follows waveform collapse and in string theory, a supersymmetry of time as dimentions (how many dimentions of time though... dunno). Nagato's ability to synchronize with her past self is another proof of this discontinuity in spacetime. (The implications of this explaination though is lost to me)

[SnakeLegend]

er sorry i'm lost in here, what are you guys talking about?

[Vexx]

Back all the way up to page 1 and read the thread intro (and the rest of the thread). This thread discusses the physics and science behind the Haruhi series with some forays into speculative science fiction concepts.

I just rebrowsed the thread... I think its worth saving off (whew, its only six pages....)

[ganbaru]

I know than this tread is non-working for more than a year, but I would like to start a discussion about the nature of Haruhi ( what kind of being is she) A moderator indicaded than this thread should be the place for this kind of discussion. Myself, I am not sure

Spoiler for "spoiler from the novels:

[The apperance of Sasaki and the anti-SOS danmake me wondering more and more about the role of kyon and Tsuruya[

[Sol Falling]

sounds good to me, but you should probably present a starting point. seems like your spoiler up there might have been cut off? can't really start discussing until we know what's to be discussed.

[ganbaru]

Sorry for lack of clearness of my earlier post. I intended to start a discussion about the nature of Haruhi or about the speculation about her nature. After all Yuki, Mikuru and Koisumi don't share the same idea about that and the last novel add some more possibility.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Sorry for lack of clearness of my earlier post. I intended to start a discussion about the nature of Haruhi or about the speculation about her nature. After all Yuki, Mikuru and Koisumi don't share the same idea about that and the last novel add some more possibility.

Mikuru's wrong entirely, Yuki doesn't really have a (clear) view of what she is, only what she does, and Koizumi, though he at first presents the "she's God" view, later tells Kyon that he believes otherwise. Later novels seem to support the idea that she's not omnipotent.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Mikuru's wrong entirely, Yuki doesn't really have a (clear) view of what she is, only what she does, and Koizumi, though he at first presents the "she's God" view, later tells Kyon that he believes otherwise. Later novels seem to support the idea that she's not onimpotent.

For the time traveler , yes they are wrong;

Spoiler for spoiller from tanabata rapsodie:

Kyon did the symbol 3 year back, but they should know, after all, they
are the one sending Kyon helping Haruhi from 3 year

For Nagato, she never gived a titre , she just said what she is capable of doing ( not so helpfull in that). And for the god thing the problem lie in the fact than no one might have the same definition or idea about what is god ( or a god).
Omnipotence might be only one part of the whole, if it is one.

[tehjoker]

Originally Posted by Panzerfan

although I am still somewhat trying to think of the Snow Mountain event wondering at this point whether or not if there's more than just inner factions of the data entities involved ...

Well, that's impossible because the Integrated Data Entity said(through Yuki) themselves that those responsible for that incident isn't one of them.

[C.A.]

Quoting something 2 years ago does not work.

Anyway at that time the Canopy Domain was not known yet.