Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

It matters because with the recent events of the cyclone in Burma and the earthquake in China and the Olympic protests, the elections in Zimbabwe, the last few episodes of Code Geass shows political insights and clarity that needs to be analyzed.

Concepts such as "As long as your heart is Japanese, you remain a Japanese where ever you are located."

or

"A nation isn't defined by territories or constitutions, it is defined by the people. So if the government has lost the support of the people then it no longer has the right to represent the nation."

Okay, but to input real world situations into a piece of animated fiction barely makes your statements relevant, infact it your just being obnoxious to the point that it not even worth discussing anything if your going to shoot us down in everything say. If you want to discuss real politics than go somewhere else please.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

Okay, but to input real world situations into a piece of animated fiction barely makes your statements relevant, infact it your just being obnoxious to the point that it not even worth discussing anything if your going to shoot us down in everything say. If you want to discuss real politics than go somewhere else please.

Honestly, those discussions would be more appropriate in the World History and Geography speculation thread.

[DN24]

I just want to point out that Suzaku has a family,he grow up with the guilt of patricide.What worse is every body probably know he killed his father.I have little doubt that Suzaku family never like him because of what he did. What about Lelouch? LL plays chess to kill time,he has a maid,he has friends who love him.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by DN24

I just want to point out that Suzaku has a family,he grow up with the guilt of patricide.What worse is every body probably know he killed his father.I have little doubt that Suzaku family never like him because of what he did. What about Lelouch? LL plays chess to kill time,he has a maid,he has friends who love him.

And a sister too that cares for him a lot. It still annoys me that someone that hasn't been through NEARLY as much trauma as Suzaku would want to destroy so much and yet Suzaku is still willing to change things from within. Who really is the more naive one? Suzaku lost everything, Lelouch still had a caring sister, many friends, and people that loved him. What did Suzaku have?

[DN24]

Actually,Lelouch also has his share of tragedy,his mother was killed and his sister's cripple after all.But during the seven years since he come to Japan, LL obviously lead a better life compare to Suzaku's.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

It matters because with the recent events of the cyclone in Burma and the earthquake in China and the Olympic protests, the elections in Zimbabwe, the last few episodes of Code Geass shows political insights and clarity that needs to be analyzed.

Concepts such as "As long as your heart is Japanese, you remain a Japanese where ever you are located."

or

"A nation isn't defined by territories or constitutions, it is defined by the people. So if the government has lost the support of the people then it no longer has the right to represent the nation."

Lol man, seriously if you think that Code Geass is some kind of special anime to come up with shit like that then you are seriously deluded about the scope of this humanity's landscape of ideas. That kind of talk is really so obvious, anybody could come up with that if they took some time to think about it, no first hand experience required. I find it hilarious that you presume that the people who make Code Geass are even aware of cyclones in Burma and elections in Zimbabwe, let alone are consciously applying the ideas in their show to it. Once again I'm telling you that Code Geass is a fictional TV show made to make some people money, and they are making it by throwing in fanservice, giant robots on rollerblades, and relationship drama all over the place. The show is not a realistic portrayal of the journey of a radical young revolutionary on his path to liberate a people in the name of freedom and justice, and you are free to take it as seriously as you like but that is not how the creators intended you to watch it.

Originally Posted by Dynastya

The reason why I can judge Lelouch and Suzaku both is because I have tried to place myself in their shoes and consider their choices and actions. And I come up disgusted and hating myself as Suzaku more than as Lelouch.

This is the other thing that always gets me. You know that Lelouch is a 'genius', right? You know that he has an entirely fictional, supernaturally fantastical mystical superpower to tell people what he wants them to do, right? You also realize that he is a prince, in an absolute monarchy, who has been groomed since birth to distrust and envy his brothers and father, so that one day he might take the throne. Can you also realize, that he's still just a 17 year old kid? What a waste of time to 'put yourself in his shoes' to do anything but pity him! Lelouch is a fictional character, in a world far beyond your reach, and no amount of idolization will bring you one step closer to the ideal he embodies. Zero does not exist, his achievements are phantasms, and your judgements of his character exist only to be manipulated by the strings of his creator, reaching nowhere. Do not imagine yourself as Lelouch. Do not look upon his actions and justify yours by saying "I would do the same". Because you are not him, your world is not his, and even any rightouesness you can find in this show is merely one human's opinion agreeing with yours.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by DN24

Actually,Lelouch also has his share of tragedy,his mother was killed and his sister's cripple after all.But during the seven years since he come to Japan, LL obviously lead a better life compare to Suzaku's.

Well, I didn't mean for it to sound like Lelouch didn't lose anything, just that he didn't lose as much as Suzaku and still had people that really cared about him (compared to Suzaku who was pretty much alone.)

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Well, I didn't mean for it to sound like Lelouch didn't lose anything, just that he didn't lose as much as Suzaku and still had people that really cared about him (compared to Suzaku who was pretty much alone.)

And he has a greater risk of losing the people he spent those 7 years with (Milly, Rivalz, Shirley) if he continues this persona as Zero because in the end they are all Britainnian and he's judging the acts of the higher ups of Britainnia to all Britannians as a whole (as far are we concern the BK thinks all Britainnians are evil except for Diethart though Kallen thinks otherwise) he's already lost his best friend Suzaku because of his actions and he may have already lost Nunally for all we know. Suzaku has approven ith his encounters that not all britainnians in the higher ups are bad (Cecile, Lloyd, Gino,etc.) and that fact that he's an eleven (though some may argue that he was treated as such before he gain knighthood)

[Freya]

Isn't Suzaku and Kaguya like cousins or something? Theres family lol.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

No offensive but I don't think it's wise to dissect and analyze a show to such a great detail of length(by that I mean coming up with all these 'Ifs' and real life situations) when it's nothing more than just pure entertainment and fanservice (if that wasn't obvious enough).

The rest is just as the director noted coincidence.

Well, I didn't mean for it to sound like Lelouch didn't lose anything, just that he didn't lose as much as Suzaku and still had people that really cared about him (compared to Suzaku who was pretty much alone.)

It'd be nice if we could get some more info on Suzaku during the 7 year period.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by DN24

I just want to point out that Suzaku has a family,he grow up with the guilt of patricide.What worse is every body probably know he killed his father.I have little doubt that Suzaku family never like him because of what he did. What about Lelouch? LL plays chess to kill time,he has a maid,he has friends who love him.

Suzaku had a family, but he doesn't have one now.

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

Okay, but to input real world situations into a piece of animated fiction barely makes your statements relevant, infact it your just being obnoxious to the point that it not even worth discussing anything if your going to shoot us down in everything say. If you want to discuss real politics than go somewhere else please.

There are lessons to be learned from anywhere, information which can become useful, insights which can be found.

Japanese animes aren't the same as american cartoons where they are designed to entertain infants. A lot of Animes are aimed at older audiences.



So far as this thread has gone, no one has provided enough justification why Suzaku's methods are better than Lelouch's.

Is it worth having your people suffer several more decades under tyranny while you work with a method which will keep your conscience clear of any guilt?

With Lelouch's methods, he takes the sin into his own hands and works to liberate the oppressed. Sure his methods will also get a lot of innocents killed in the crossfire but for Britannia, as long as he is active, it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

If the Britannians lash out at the Japanese people to get to Zero, it just brings more hatred upon them and more support for Zero. If they don't lash out at the Japanese people and just concentrate their forces on trying to crush his faction Zero still gains supporters anyway with his string of successes.

Britannia in Code Geass though it may not exactly resemble Nazi Germany under Hitler, it does however bear similar traits, such as how Britannias are a better people than the rest of the world, or how Britannia's darwinistic ideas should be the norm of the world, etc.

So can anyone give any other justifications why Suzaku's methods are better than Lelouch's, reasons other than the fact that Suzaku's methods keep your conscience clean and is more peaceful. Can you even name 1 real life example in modern times (not past examples, but someone who is currently trying to do something) of someone who is using a pacifist methods to try and bring about a government change for a country?


I remember when Ghost in the Shell was first released Masamune Shirow stated that with it he was trying to show the people his vision of what the future can hold for us as technology increasingly becomes more and more integrated into our lives. It wasn't just to entertain people but to get some people to start thinking about what the future can become.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

This is the other thing that always gets me. You know that Lelouch is a 'genius', right? You know that he has an entirely fictional, supernaturally fantastical mystical superpower to tell people what he wants them to do, right? You also realize that he is a prince, in an absolute monarchy, who has been groomed since birth to distrust and envy his brothers and father, so that one day he might take the throne. Can you also realize, that he's still just a 17 year old kid? What a waste of time to 'put yourself in his shoes' to do anything but pity him! Lelouch is a fictional character, in a world far beyond your reach, and no amount of idolization will bring you one step closer to the ideal he embodies. Zero does not exist, his achievements are phantasms, and your judgements of his character exist only to be manipulated by the strings of his creator, reaching nowhere. Do not imagine yourself as Lelouch. Do not look upon his actions and justify yours by saying "I would do the same". Because you are not him, your world is not his, and even any rightouesness you can find in this show is merely one human's opinion agreeing with yours.

Ever heard of profiling? Law enforcement organizations do.

[canis]

Spoiler for Previous post:

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Suzaku had a family, but he doesn't have one now.



There are lessons to be learned from anywhere, information which can become useful, insights which can be found.

Japanese animes aren't the same as american cartoons where they are designed to entertain infants. A lot of Animes are aimed at older audiences.



So far as this thread has gone, no one has provided enough justification why Suzaku's methods are better than Lelouch's.

Is it worth having your people suffer several more decades under tyranny while you work with a method which will keep your conscience clear of any guilt?

With Lelouch's methods, he takes the sin into his own hands and works to liberate the oppressed. Sure his methods will also get a lot of innocents killed in the crossfire but for Britannia, as long as he is active, it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

If the Britannians lash out at the Japanese people to get to Zero, it just brings more hatred upon them and more support for Zero. If they don't lash out at the Japanese people and just concentrate their forces on trying to crush his faction Zero still gains supporters anyway with his string of successes.

Britannia in Code Geass though it may not exactly resemble Nazi Germany under Hitler, it does however bear similar traits, such as how Britannias are a better people than the rest of the world, or how Britannia's darwinistic ideas should be the norm of the world, etc.

So can anyone give any other justifications why Suzaku's methods are better than Lelouch's, reasons other than the fact that Suzaku's methods keep your conscience clean and is more peaceful.


I remember when Ghost in the Shell was first released Masamune Shirow stated that with it he was trying to show the people his vision of what the future can hold for us as technology increasingly becomes more and more integrated into our lives. It wasn't just to entertain people but to get some people to start thinking about what the future can become.



Ever heard of profiling? Law enforcement organizations do.

If Lelouch succeeds, the scope of the fighting will be more in the line of a civil war. And since you brought up real life examples, several countries in Africa is suffering of those and they have been going on for ages. Normally it doesn't go smoothly and if nobody can seize the upper hand it'll tear the country apart. Infrastructure, agriculture, people,... It's always the civilians who pay the price.
No method is better, both involve bloodshed and discrimination... Lelouch's method seems quick since it's all about battles, but the real work would start after everything is over and the build-up of the country begins.
Suzaku's method can't compete in heroism or anything else. If there are accomplishments we don't really know so far, but it would be similar to the scene where he let the Zero's go. As Lloyd said, nobody is going to thank him for that...
That would count for everything else too.
Who'd recognize the help of a traitor after all?

And I don't think that Code Geass can compete with Ghost in the Shell.
CG is a good show but colored in a very romantic way... Knights, castles,...
The KnightMare Frames as the Knights' noble steed.
If anything Britannia is like Great Britain during the Commonwealth, with its colonies. And I remember reading that the directors did that intentionally so the show wouldn't be all about politics...


On another note... Where do you picture Suzaku at the end of the show? Will he have a good ending? Will he survive (imo, the "Live" Geass isn't a flawless protection)? Maybe have a girlfriend (picking up the subject that got lost in the posts before)?

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by canis

If Lelouch succeeds, the scope of the fighting will be more in the line of a civil war. And since you brought up real life examples, several countries in Africa is suffering of those and they have been going on for ages. Normally it doesn't go smoothly and if nobody can seize the upper hand it'll tear the country apart. Infrastructure, agriculture, people,... It's always the civilians who pay the price.
No method is better, both involve bloodshed and discrimination... Lelouch's method seems quick since it's all about battles, but the real work would start after everything is over and the build-up of the country begins.
Suzaku's method can't compete in heroism or anything else. If there are accomplishments we don't really know so far, but it would be similar to the scene where he let the Zero's go. As Lloyd said, nobody is going to thank him for that...
That would count for everything else too.
Who'd recognize the help of a traitor after all?

And I don't think that Code Geass can compete with Ghost in the Shell.
CG is a good show but colored in a very romantic way... Knights, castles,...
The KnightMare Frames as the Knights' noble steed.
If anything Britannia is like Great Britain during the Commonwealth, with its colonies. And I remember reading that the directors did that intentionally so the show wouldn't be all about politics...


On another note... Where do you picture Suzaku at the end of the show? Will he have a good ending? Will he survive (imo, the "Live" Geass isn't a flawless protection)? Maybe have a girlfriend (picking up the subject that got lost in the posts before)?

But who can tell about the future, perhaps the political ideals such as Charles' darwinistic vision of advancing the world, britannia's method of renaming conquered territories as Numbers to make the assimilation easier, etc can one day come to exist in the future.

even now there are a lot of problems with many governments in the world because people had started this concept of 'change must come from within' but that change from within can only come of the people are able to do something about it and their government is willing to listen.

With Suzaku, how many people who play an important role in the Britannia government is listening, is he even expressing his ideas. Look at the way he acted when the soldier came to request his signature for the execution of the soldier who tried to kill him. he just stood there being undecided while it was Anya who coldly signed the form. If Suzaku believes in the idea of helping the people and avoid killing, he should've tried to get the death sentence dropped and perhaps give a less severe punishment like life imprisonment or something. Because the soldier attacked a Knight of Rounds, the normal britannian military can't carry out the punishment of the soldier without the permission of a KoR.

As for Africa, not really a good example, because a lot of the conflicts in Africa happening now is due to tribal and ethnic differences which haven't been resolved since they lived in straw or mud huts. western nations aren't even interfering in Africa on the same scale as the US with Iraq and NATO with Afghanistan. The UN has some peacekeeping forces there but they are there because both sides of the conflict requested their presence (which is required by the UN peacekeeping charter) and the peace keeping forces are multinational with soldiers coming mostly from African nations and a few other non African nations. And as a whole UN peacekeeping forces do not have the same level of autonomy to use deadly force as US NATO troops in the middle east.


here's a CNN video about a Korean movie depicting the suffering of people who live in oppression and how they struggle:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...ef=videosearch

Originally Posted by canis

If anything Britannia is like Great Britain during the Commonwealth, with its colonies. And I remember reading that the directors did that intentionally so the show wouldn't be all about politics...

It still doesn't change the fact that the way the government works is more like Hitler's racist ideals than the government of the British Colonial era.

[m1thril]

so what does this have to do with anything again? ie...what was the main point of this entire argument?

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by m1thril

so what does this have to do with anything again? ie...what was the main point of this entire argument?

The whole point is that Suzaku's methods may keep his conscience clear and there would be no battles but over the long run it will be more costly and there will always be killings (even if it's not due to wars and battles, people will still be executed, killed, etc).

And it will take too long a time for it to be worthwhile.

[canis]

It still doesn't change the fact that the way the government works is more like Hitler's racist ideals than the government of the British Colonial era.

No it doesn't... There is no belief in an aryan race, no sign of pseudo-scientific tries to prove the genetic inferiority of other races, no concentration camps,...
The Nazi systematically tried to wipe out a people...
Britannia is an absolute state but it comes nowhere close...
I wasn't trying to draw a direct parallel between CG's Britannia/Japan situation and any real life conflict, but to show the effects of civil war.
India's situation during the commonwealth would perhaps be a better example.

That said, I'd like to repeat my previous question:

On another note... Where do you picture Suzaku at the end of the show? Will he have a good ending? Will he survive (imo, the "Live" Geass isn't a flawless protection)? Maybe have a girlfriend (picking up the subject that got lost in the posts before)?

[yezhanquan]

Suzaku and Nunnally the closest I can think of. Suzaku isn't exactly the babe magnet by any standards.

[Sol Falling]

Given how the show intentionally portrays Suzaku and Lelouch as opposing but equally legitimate forces for change, I'm going with good ending so long as Lelouch is getting his. As for love interests, Nunally is of course the forerunner, but I'd say Anya is a possibility as well; the way she asked Suzaku if he was a 'masochist' was just too much for me.

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Given how the show intentionally portrays Suzaku and Lelouch as opposing but equally legitimate forces for change, I'm going with good ending so long as Lelouch is getting his. As for love interests, Nunally is of course the forerunner, but I'd say Anya is a possibility as well; the way she asked Suzaku if he was a 'masochist' was just too much for me.

I don't know. Didn't Taniguchi say that a living hell awaited Suzaku or some such.

Anya will probably defect to the order and if Nunnally finds out that he kept the two of them apart(remember she said she just wanted to live happily with her brother) and erased her from his memories, well, sucks to be you Suzaku.

[Kaze]

Originally Posted by ZeroSama

I don't know. Didn't Taniguchi say that a living hell awaited Suzaku or some such.

Anya will probably defect to the order and if Nunnally finds out that he kept the two of them apart(remember she said she just wanted to live happily with her brother) and erased her from his memories, well, sucks to be you Suzaku.

Now I'm actually feeling a bit bad for Suzaku, he always used to be the one that played things a bit more fair than Lelouch (Note: I said used to)

Oh well, all your base are belong to Lelouch.

<-- Is an Anya who defects supporter, so I'd love to see that happening.

If Nunnally finds out, Suzaku will get nailed allright, and I think she'd be angry at her father too