Gamabunta's Strength? [spoilers]

[Hobbes]

Now, we all know that he is a massive frog and he can easily sway the battle in Naruto's favor - he did even up the match between Naruto and Gaara. But I still have to say that I was a bit disappointed in his performance against the Sand Demon. He CLEARLY was outmatched and all he could do was dodge/evade the wind forces. The most disappointing thing that struck me was when Naruto and him performed the Henge and they "appeared" to be kyuubi. But when they began to fight with that appearance I was disappointed because I thought they would have powers equalized to the actual demon - of course that was just me hoping for some bad ass moves.

But this leads me to my questions... was anyone else wondering how strong the frog truly is?

**** I only watch the anime, so please do not use Manga knowledge that would spoil anything ****

[Hyuuga Neji]

I wonder how powerful he is too, because when the fourth used him in the battle against the nine tails but when Naruto summond him he didnt seem to have a whole lot of power at all....i dont read the manga either

[Gen-X]

I don't think that the Fourth used Gamabunta for battle

[Shino~]

the fourth just uses gamabunta as something to make him seem taller LOL, ok anyways dun think the toad is really that strong cause he can only swing his sword once...

[Lexander]

Henge is simply a physical transformation ... I don't know why you would assume that he'd suddenly be all Kyubi after it.

Edit: do you people enjoy using each other's animated gifs? expecially when there is like a million of them.

[Xarrais]

Originally Posted by Gen-X

I don't think that the Fourth used Gamabunta for battle

The flashbacks int he anime show the 4th standing on his back, but from what I understand Kyuubi >>>>> shukaku (interview with naruto creator says he picked the 9 tails because it was one of the most powerful demons from japanese mythology) and Shukaku was obviously alot stronger than the frog.

Seems like the frogs chakra capacity was fairly low. Shukaku was firing his blasts like it was nothing at all and gamb's blasts took alot out of him. Although there was also that blast he took... that might have made him wear out faster than he may normally.

[Hobbes]

Originally Posted by Lexander

Henge is simply a physical transformation ... I don't know why you would assume that he'd suddenly be all Kyubi after it.

I know, I got all caught up in the whole... it looks like kyuubi thing that I was trying to will the henge into being super powerful... silly me

[Lexander]

Originally Posted by Hobbes

I know, I got all caught up in the whole... it looks like kyuubi thing that I was trying to will the henge into being super powerful... silly me

it'b be too easy

[Sethi]

If they had powers that equaled Kyubi then one swing of it's tail would pretty much slaughter Shukaku, also i think that the actual Kyubi is Bigger than that.
And i am also of the opinion that the Fourth didn't use GamaBunta for actual fighting but perhaps has a supporter for the Shiki Fuujin since GamaBunta can lend it's Chakra to a person, and i don't believe the fourth alone had the necessary Chakra to imprision Kyubi by himself but that is yet to see.

[Xarrais]

Originally Posted by Sethi

If they had powers that equaled Kyubi then one swing of it's tail would pretty much slaughter Shukaku, also i think that the actual Kyubi is Bigger than that.
And i am also of the opinion that the Fourth didn't use GamaBunta for actual fighting but perhaps has a supporter for the Shiki Fuujin since GamaBunta can lend it's Chakra to a person, and i don't believe the fourth alone had the necessary Chakra to imprision Kyubi by himself but that is yet to see.

The 4th may have ... there hasn't been to much info (at least in the anime not sure on manga) on just how strong he was. The only hints where that the hokage indicated that he was stronger than he was (which I guess could possible been intrupted as the 4th would be stronger than the 3rd since he was so old now but I took it to mean that the 4th was his superior in power)... and we know that the 3rd in his prime was considered the god of all ninjas.

[Sethi]

Originally Posted by Xarrais

The 4th may have ... there hasn't been to much info (at least in the anime not sure on manga) on just how strong he was. The only hits where that the hokage indicated that he was stronger than he was (which I guess could possible been intrupted as the 4th would be stronger than the 3rd since he was so old now but I took it to mean that the 4th was his superior in power)... and we know that the 3rd in his prime was considered the god of all ninjas.

Yeah but Kyubi is considered like the god of all Demons which can destroy a entire mountain and create Tsunamis with 1 tail so there's a LITTLE diference

[Revan]

Originally Posted by Hobbes

He CLEARLY was outmatched and all he could do was dodge/evade the wind forces. The most disappointing thing that struck me was when Naruto and him performed the Henge and they "appeared" to be kyuubi. But when they began to fight with that appearance I was disappointed because I thought they would have powers equalized to the actual demon - of course that was just me hoping for some bad ass moves.

Well, as everyone has already said, henge only makes you look like something else, not actually become something else. Think of when the whole class was practicing henge-ing into Sandaime... obviously they did not have Hokage-level powers during the transformation.

As for the strength of Gamabunta, I think that he's very powerful, it's just that he he's less strong than Shukaku. I recall that the comparatively small toad Jiraiya summoned in episode 52 had no trouble taking out Ebisu, so that gives a rough idea of his power. However, direct attacks are not the best use for Gamabunta given his strengths and weakness. His powerful hind legs give him excellent speed and maneuverability, making Gamabunta’s head an ideal command post for a powerful shinobi (like Jiraiya or Yondaime) to launch big nin/genjutsu attacks in relative safety and/or coordinate troops.

[complich8]

I think gamabunta was pretty impressively powerful, considering that shukaku was supposed to be the trump card to completely annihilate konoha...

gamabunta fought evenly with shukaku for a while, but shuk was physically bigger and seems quite a bit more monstrous...

I'd call gamabunta's chakra capacity lower than shukaku's overall (those air blasts were pretty non-stop throughout the fight) ... and I also think that transformation of a large body like gama's would take more chakra than someone normal sized doing the same .... it's hard to really estimate that though.

I think he would have swung his dagger more than once, but it kinda got ripped out of his hands in the process of the fight .... running over to get it might not be the best of ideas with those air blasts flying everywhere, and while it proved somewhat effective at ripping an arm off, it wasn't going to kill him, and was probably just going to be a liability further in the fight -- gamabunta had trouble getting close enough to shukaku again to be able to use something like that anyway.

Most importantly, if gamabunta were strong enough to just show up and beat down shukaku singlehandedly, it wouldn't be a victory for naruto as much as a victory for gamabunta. By making gamabunta and naruto together just barely a match for shukaku and gaara, the author made the whole sequence more gripping, and made it meaningful for both of them as a team effort, instead of just gamabunta's win or naruto's win or something.

[EbonySeraphim]

My opinion on the matter is that Gamabunta is definitely stronger than Shukaku. I forget what thread I read on this forum a while ago, but the someone said that the strongest summons are the ones in possession of the Sannin, Naruto, and Sarutobi (with the monkey dude). The only thing stronger than those were supposed to be the 9 youma of the Naruto world. Shukaku was on a level below them, but probably the highest one there. I think that during the fight, they had to reduce Gamabunta to Shukaku's "even match" or else it would have not been as interesting/important to see Gamabunta take care of the demon, and the normal sized Gaara after the fact.

It's also arguable that Gamabunta didn't have much of a strong purpose to fight for/with Naruto. Even though he was semi-pissed off at his nakama(family) being attacked by Shukaku, he wanted to show Naruto what to fight for more so than defeat the oppenent.

A perhaps relative scale to consider would be - if you think that Gamabunta isn't capable of beating Shukaku by himself, then wouldn't you think that Shukaku would be a problem for someone like the three Sannin to handle(individually of course)? Granted, I guess they wouldn't handle Shukaku easily, but their summons should be able to handle Shukaku without very much trouble.

EDIT: Another argument on the "power" scale is that Shukaku is a demon who seems to thrive on brute force methods. He was probably wasting a lot of energy with all of his blasts too, but of course he didn't mention anything about it happening. Gamabunta being older and seemingly much more experienced probably saw other means to ending the fight. Basically I think he chose not to fight using a ton of special attacks which is why he seeked the strategy of waking up Gaara to make the demon go back to sleep instead of pounding Shukaku down with brute force.

[socomberetta]

I think Shukaku is definitely stronger than Gamabunta. When Shukaku first appeared, he was more than a match for Gama, and he wasnt fighting at his maximum. If he had more time on the outside, he would have eventually gotten stronger and possibly defeat Gama. H

Plus Gama was drained of chakra after performing a Henge and a few of those water cannonballs, while Shukaku seemed to have not been fazed by the blasts he created.

[Lexander]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

My opinion on the matter is that Gamabunta is definitely stronger than Shukaku. I forget what thread I read on this forum a while ago, but the someone said that the strongest summons are the ones in possession of the Sannin, Naruto, and Sarutobi (with the monkey dude). The only thing stronger than those were supposed to be the 9 youma of the Naruto world. Shukaku was on a level below them, but probably the highest one there. I think that during the fight, they had to reduce Gamabunta to Shukaku's "even match" or else it would have not been as interesting/important to see Gamabunta take care of the demon, and the normal sized Gaara after the fact.

It's also arguable that Gamabunta didn't have much of a strong purpose to fight for/with Naruto. Even though he was semi-pissed off at his nakama(family) being attacked by Shukaku, he wanted to show Naruto what to fight for more so than defeat the oppenent.

A perhaps relative scale to consider would be - if you think that Gamabunta isn't capable of beating Shukaku by himself, then wouldn't you think that Shukaku would be a problem for someone like the three Sannin to handle(individually of course)? Granted, I guess they wouldn't handle Shukaku easily, but their summons should be able to handle Shukaku without very much trouble.

EDIT: Another argument on the "power" scale is that Shukaku is a demon who seems to thrive on brute force methods. He was probably wasting a lot of energy with all of his blasts too, but of course he didn't mention anything about it happening. Gamabunta being older and seemingly much more experienced probably saw other means to ending the fight. Basically I think he chose not to fight using a ton of special attacks which is why he seeked the strategy of waking up Gaara to make the demon go back to sleep instead of pounding Shukaku down with brute force.

1. Gamabunta was out of chakra, which shows that he does not have nearly as much as Shukaku.
2. Gamabunta said that he'd be out if he took another chakra ball from Shukaku
3. Gamabunta did use special moves. His water balls jutsu was his special move and it wasn't a strong enough counter
4. Waking up Gaara was the only way, Gamabunta realized he's outmatched so he looked for another way.
5. Just because the Sannin summon them it doesn't mean that they are stronger than Shukaku. Nothing indicates that Shukaku is a level below the Summon lords, if fact all the facts show that he is above Gamabunta.

The reason why you think Gamabunta didn't show his full potential is because he's so arrogant. Just because he says he doesn't want to bother with Shukaku doesn't mean that if he did bother with him he would win. He doesn't even have respect for Jiraya!

[Hobbes]

There are several arguments that can be made...

First off, right before Shukaku goes back into his eterenal sleep after Naruto punches Gaara he screams something to the effect of, "NOOOOO!!!! I JUST HAD BEEN FREED" or "I JUST STARTED!!!" This can give two different sorts of feelings:

1) Shukaku had the advantage over Gama because he had been pent up within Gaara for years on end and he was just itching to be free in order to cause mayem. His Chakra/Rest levels were much higher along with his sheer rage. He had a personal reason to fight, unlike Gama (even though the small frog said he had been picked on by Shukaku).

2) Shukaku had just began to fight and he had tons of chakra left, thus leaving Gama way way way weaker than Shukaku.

Another argument can be made that Gama's chakra was low because Naruto's summoning was performed after many Kage Bushins and the 2,000 punches. I don't know if it translates like that (I don't know if the summoners chakra levels reflect the overlord's, but if it does that is an easy answer to Gama's way low chakra levels.

I know the writers had Gama not obliterate Shukaku so they could have thematic devices could take place, but I just thought it almost looked like the King of the Monkies looked stronger than Gama. Sure the Monkey lacked the size of Gama, but when he became the "magic wand" pole he was pretty unstopable. But then again, the Monkey was more of a summon that worked with the summoner while Gama and Naruto did not work together near as closely as the Hokage did with the King. I do think that we will see much more out of Gama later, whether or not he is aiding Jairaya or Naruto.

I guess you might be thinking, where the hell is he going with this... and the answer is, no where. I am just trying to get a good debate going and I really have no idea how to analyze this situation thorougly. All I do know is that I was a little disappointed in Gama - I mean he had the energy to spend 24 hours trying to get Naruto off of his back but he can only fight for 5 minutes? Whats going on here?

[NaOH]

the bad guy's side:
the badger was fully awaken, which means he had consume gaara's mind n soul which gives him more power.

the good guy's side:
naruto summons gamabunta, but its just the frog fighting by it self. naruto just sits there and chill with gamabunta's son.

i would have tap into some manga details relating summon+summonor fighting styles, but since this new bastard rule for noobs prohibits me for doing that, so i ll just play dumb. (note to ppl, if u spoil manga stuff, even with tag you will get ban for 3 days, i learn that the hard way...)

[Palani]

Gamabunta is a very large frog with a lot of chakra. But he's just like any ordinary nin when it comes to fighting. When you get hit you drag down and when you battle on such a high level you wear down pretty easily. The reason why he didn't seem that strong in your eyes was probably because of the strength of Shukkaku. This was the same as watching Zabuza and Kakashi fight. Both were very strong but compared to each other they were on par. In my eyes tha Gamabunta fight had this same effect. I was watching it and when I saw the jutsus I was like WOW I wouldn't want to be hit by one of those. But that'sjust how it was for me.

And why can't we spoil here?? It's not because we aren't allowed, he put SPOILER in the thread name so we are allowed to talk to manga in tags. Just not openly. We don't do it because he requested not to. Still don't get why putting spoilers in the title then though. Try reading the CoC

[EbonySeraphim]

Originally Posted by Lexander

1. Gamabunta was out of chakra, which shows that he does not have nearly as much as Shukaku.
2. Gamabunta said that he'd be out if he took another chakra ball from Shukaku
3. Gamabunta did use special moves. His water balls jutsu was his special move and it wasn't a strong enough counter
4. Waking up Gaara was the only way, Gamabunta realized he's outmatched so he looked for another way.
5. Just because the Sannin summon them it doesn't mean that they are stronger than Shukaku. Nothing indicates that Shukaku is a level below the Summon lords, if fact all the facts show that he is above Gamabunta.

The reason why you think Gamabunta didn't show his full potential is because he's so arrogant. Just because he says he doesn't want to bother with Shukaku doesn't mean that if he did bother with him he would win. He doesn't even have respect for Jiraya!

This is perhaps the most wonderful set of arguments I have seen against me. Absolutely justified in context and to the point (unlike me who writes way too much).

I will still argue though. Just not on a factual basis, so you can still say that I'm flat out wrong. I believe that a lot of stuff that happens in this show happens for reason's other than what is directly shown or told.

1. Maybe this is a bit of a factual counter-argument, but I may have to rewatch the anime or re-read the manga. I never really recall him saying that he was "out" of chakra. He did say "just about" which when people use terms like that...you generally assume that they mean, "more than I'm willing to spend effort on." Of course, we can never affirm this, so he could have really been out - I choose not to believe this though.
2. Err...you're almost completely right. According to ANBU's translation - he said "Even I wont last long if I get hit by another one of those." It arguably doesn't say that he will lose if he does get hit, but it will severely affect his performance. Personally I think that the fact that he knows this and thinks of other ways to win the fight, makes Gamabunta better.
3. Here, I do believe is an issue of fact against fact. Gamabunta didn't give a one for one hit against the wind chakra balls from Shukaku. For some reason or another, he only decided to shoot two to counter two of Shukaku's and took a hit from the third one. Perhaps he didn't want to spend energy in a way that wouldn't win the fight? Nothing was said - other than later statements of "running low on chakra" - on why Gama-bunta didn't fire more water cannon shots. Really, if he was that low on chakra to the point of almost losing a fight, I think he would stop moving, breathe heavily, or something.
4. I argue that waking up Gaara was not the only way. Just the most reasonable with the least amount of effort, so of course that would be the logical approach to choose.
5. I don't think just because the Sannin summon them that they are better. Rather, taking a part in their fights and battles(obviously high level), I believe gives them experience kind of like all of the other ninjas in the Naruto world, and makes them more capable of knowing how to win a fight. Same notion on why Shikamaru shined so much relative to the other Genin despite being "weaker." He just knows how to win. One notable experience of Gamabunta is part of the fight against Kyuubi. Of course we don't see him doing anything, but assuming he didn't, at least witnessing it means something right? (you can say no of course)

Originally Posted by Lexander

The reason why you think Gamabunta didn't show his full potential is because he's so arrogant. Just because he says he doesn't want to bother with Shukaku doesn't mean that if he did bother with him he would win. He doesn't even have respect for Jiraya!

Nice speculation. Even I think that this could contribute to why I think he is more powerful. But other factors that I mentioned in this post are a part of it too. Related to the second sentence you said - you also can't infer to the opposite outcome as far as a serious fight between them would occur.

EDIT: Fixed some really crappy grammar. There are probably still errors left.