[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa

Well... But Asumu have died when Battler was 12 anyway, and Kyrie has waited for her to die for onyl 12 years, not 18, right?

But the matter is Battler's birth not Asumu's death I guess.

[Tibba]

I'm starting to think "Detective's Authority" is just the magical term for "charisma". In that sense, Erika has always had Detective's Authority, because she naturally has the charisma to manipulate others.

[luckyssol]

Instead of making a wild guess like others seem to be doing I will simply quote the game:

Spoiler for Episode 3:

".........I was the one who had been going out with Rudolf-san from the very beginning. ......Asumu-san blatantly cut in between us, ...and shrewdly got pregnant.

......I don't blame Rudolf-san. That woman used her body as a weapon to seduce him, and then acted even more repulsively, and cornered Rudolf-san so that he was forced to engage her."

Asumu-san had been carrying Battler-kun.

And at the same time, I was also carrying a boy.

...As fate would have it, our delivery dates were on the same day.

"Then, Asumu-san gave birth to Battler-kun. ...But I had a miscarriage. .........There's something I've thought about. What if Asumu-san had been the one to have a miscarriage, and I had been the one to give birth? ......Would Rudolf-san have broken off his engagement and married me? ......But I couldn't give birth to a child. So until Asumu-san died, and until I got pregnant with Ange, I cursed Asumu-san, and was jealous of her."

Asumu-san should just die.

And then I want him to remarry, with me. In my envy, I kept cursing like that, over and over, until Asumu-san finally died.

I was certain.

I was certain that I had possessed the power of magic, which had become a curse and killed Asumu-san.

But that did not quell the flames of my envy.

Don't tell anyone, alright?

Every time I look at Battler-kun, I remember that woman.

And every time I look at Battler-kun, ...I think that if only my child had been born, he would be the same age.

I am still jealous of her, tormented by her.
Even now, and from now on. In the future, for all eternity.

"You say that you were jealous of your sisters for seven days and seven nights...?"
"Th, ......that's right..."

Don't make me laugh, girl.

".........How could you understand the madness of a woman whose man was stolen from her, and who has burned with envy for 18 years...!!"

Please note the bolded part where it is stated in the game that Asumu's death did not quell Kyrie's flames of envy. The game says she continued to be jealous of Asumu after her death.

Well, you can have your opinions but I will follow what the game says.

[theplane2]

Originally Posted by DgBarca

But the matter is Battler's birth not Asumu's death I guess.

But wouldn't that mean her hell is still going on as long as he's around?

...Unless she's planning on killing him at the conference, which would indeed mean that her hell ended after eighteen years. Heyyy, I think we've found our culprit! -shot-

EDIT: Oh, so it's still going on. Thanks, Ssol.

@Tibba - It was stated ingame that she was chosen to be Bern's piece because she already was capable of stuff like manipulating crowds and sneaking around, right? She does have a natural charisma about her. However the Detective's Authority makes it so she doesn't even need to manipulate anyone or sneak anywhere, she can just barge in and do what she pleases, which is the difference. At least, that's the impression I got.

[Renall]

What if Rudolf told Kyrie - independent of whether he is able to tell Battler in any episode - that Battler was really her son all along, in every episode? Then she has a non-murderous explanation for why her hell ended; she discovered the truth.

Of course that somewhat implies Battler is her son, and that she would know this. Then again, maybe Rudolf doesn't need to tell her for her to know. Maybe it's something about Battler's behavior that convinces her.

I wonder too if Battler ever notices this at any point. Doesn't he call her "Mom" during the ep4 phone call? He never calls her that.

[LaplaceNoMa]

Oh damn, I didn't even notice it was the same '18' in episode 3.
She just repeated this number too much times in this scene.

Ssol's point of view is interesting, but this still looks very strange.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Mercurius

1) Again, I think any theory that diminishes the red truth from being 100% true should be highly suspect. If the seals only had 99% certainty, and there was a 1% chance that someone could forge Erika's signature, or someone is capable of removing and reapplying the seal without breaking it, then Erika would not have been able to use the red. If that really was the case, then all seals at all times should be subject to being not 100% certain. And the red text itself in all cases guaranteed that the seals did their job and were not tampered with.

I didn't mean to say anything of that sort about red truth. Red truth is simply the truth, but a red truth can only be used in the world of the witches not in the world of humans. this has been stated multiple times. So no matter how much a detective gets closed to an absolute truth it will never become a red truth unless in the world of witches.

Originally Posted by Ssol

Please note the bolded part where it is stated in the game that Asumu's death did not quell Kyrie's flames of envy. The game says she continued to be jealous of Asumu after her death.

Well, you can have your opinions but I will follow what the game says.

You are assuming that the envy she still has for Asumu having Battler is the same thing as her envy for Asumu stealing Rudolf from her.
I don't think that's the case. If you really follow what the game says than you should also consider this:

I was lucky. My hell ended after 18 years.

Women who don't do that are chewed to bits by the others and forced to crawl through the hell of envy and regret for the rest of their lives. .........My hell lasted 18 years. ......I was lucky to be pardoned after just 18 years. ......That hell is still filled with women......who will never get out until they die. ......Unless they execute themselves in their regret.

and this is from Rosa:

Though she had her man stolen from her, she persevered for 18 years. She never fell to despair, and instead continued to support Rudolf, hiding and waiting for a miracle.....

The hell Kyrie endured has nothing to do with Battler. Certainly Kyrie still envies Asumu, but it's nothing compared to the hell she lived before her death.

I will be only convinced of the contrary if it can be found anywhere a clear connection between "kyrie's hell" and the envy for "Battler".

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You are assuming that the envy she still has for Asumu having Battler is the same thing as her envy for Asumu stealing Rudolf from her.

I don't think that's the case.

I never made the assumption that those were one and the same. All I said that Kyrie continued to be jealous of Asumu after her death. This is what the game says.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The hell Kyrie endured has nothing to do with Battler. Certainly Kyrie still envies Asumu, but it's nothing compared to the hell she lived before her death.

I will be only convinced of the contrary if it can be found anywhere a clear connection between "kyrie's hell" and the envy for "Battler".

So 1962 is when her hell began? You have picked an arbitrary date that has never been mentioned in the game once. I won't say your opinion is absolutely wrong but the game mentions nothing of what went on around 1962.

However, 1967 and 1968 are busy years in the Umineko universe.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

I wonder too if Battler ever notices this at any point. Doesn't he call her "Mom" during the ep4 phone call? He never calls her that.

Yeah he did call her that at the end of the phone call. She might have told him about him being her son during it because the phone call is partly narration to make it shorter. That's probably not why he called her mother though. It's just that it was emotional for him.

Kyrie: "I'm still okay.It scratched , but it missed again. .... It looks like I won't get another chance. ......Thank you and good bye Battler Kun. I was once cold toward your for being Asumu san's son. ....Forgive me for that day."

Battler:"What do you mean forgive you? Right now, you ARE a mother to me Kyrie san!!"

[Jan-Poo]

I don't know how that can be arbitrary. It's as arbitrary as saying that Battler was born in 1968 because he has 18 years. Just because it was never said anywhere that 1968 is when Battler was born, it doesn't mean it is arbitrary to say he was born that year. I mean it's math... 1986 -18 makes 1968.

If both Kyrie and Rosa when talking about Kyrie's unrequited love claim that it lasted 18 years, simply by knowing that Kyrie married in 1980 should be enough to conclude her hell started in 1962. The only fuzzy thing is what exactly started that year.

Was the year Kyrie started loving Rudolf?
Was the year Asumu showed up?
Was the year Asumu "stole" Rudolf from Kyrie?

At any rate either Ryuukishi made a mistake or Kyrie's hell started in 1962

Yeah he did call her that at the end of the phone call. She might have told him about him being her son during it because the phone call is partly narration to make it shorter. That's probably not why he called her mother though. It's just that it was emotional for him.

Battler was supposed to call her mom. The strange thing is he never called her that not the other way around. This can be explained simply by the fact that Battler considering the circumstances decided to stop being a prick and accept Kyrie as his mother.

[LaplaceNoMa]

Ryuukishi made a mistake

That's what I wanted to think, but after being reminded by the same 'mistake' from episode 3, I believe there's something deeper behind it.

[theplane2]

Originally Posted by Renall

What if Rudolf told Kyrie - independent of whether he is able to tell Battler in any episode - that Battler was really her son all along, in every episode? Then she has a non-murderous explanation for why her hell ended; she discovered the truth.

Of course that somewhat implies Battler is her son, and that she would know this. Then again, maybe Rudolf doesn't need to tell her for her to know. Maybe it's something about Battler's behavior that convinces her.

I wonder too if Battler ever notices this at any point. Doesn't he call her "Mom" during the ep4 phone call? He never calls her that.

To expand on this -- what if she knew from the start he was her son?
Just throwing this out there, but regarding if Battler was Kyrie's biological son and she knew all along, eighteen years could make sense.

Asumu raised Kyrie's son as her own, then as soon as she married into the family he left. He'd just come back at eighteen. So her envy towards Asumu could not only be for getting to Rudolf first, but also for raising a son she knew/suspected to be her own and then him leaving out of respect for that woman.

Dunno, just a thought.

[Jan-Poo]

The fact that Rosa knows about the 18 years makes me think it's not a mystery.

The easier explanation is that Kyrie had been waiting 18 years before marrying Rudolf. There's no reason to think her hell started the day Rudolf married Asumu. Especially considering that they were already engaged prior to that.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Battler was supposed to call her mom. The strange thing is he never called her that not the other way around. This can be explained simply by the fact that Battler considering the circumstances decided to stop being a prick and accept Kyrie as his mother.

I don't find it strange at all. The person that married his father is about to die while on the phone. So he stopped being stubborn and called her mother. So your right I think it's circumstances. Everything else is speculation.

If people reread this scene Kyrie is very out of character for someone who people thinks is a jealous murderer. She panics at any loud sound and she acts caring while on the phone. And since episode 4 is the only chance she really has for murder I take it as saying that's not the case. Of course making her look like a good guy to put us off the trail would be something to do if she's the culprit, but I don't really think she's been shown to be capable of it.

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The fact that Rosa knows about the 18 years makes me think it's not a mystery.

The easier explanation is that Kyrie had been waiting 18 years before marrying Rudolf. There's no reason to think her hell started the day Rudolf married Asumu. Especially considering that they were already engaged prior to that.

Kyrie and Rosa seems ti be very close, like in the rose gardern in EP1 when she talks about Asumu too...
This makes me remember of the sprite error....

[luckyssol]

Well, I can understand Jan-Poo's point of view but it just doesn't match the dialog from episode 3.

Kyrie was going out with Rudolf first and then Asumu cut in and got pregnant. I never got the impression that Asumu had cut in between them for six years and then after those six years she got pregnant:

".........I was the one who had been going out with Rudolf-san from the very beginning. ......Asumu-san blatantly cut in between us, ...and shrewdly got pregnant.

......I don't blame Rudolf-san. That woman used her body as a weapon to seduce him, and then acted even more repulsively, and cornered Rudolf-san so that he was forced to engage her."

If Jan-Poo's theory is true then Kyrie actually envied Asumu (for various different reasons) for a total of 24 years. This doesn't sound correct to me, I'm sorry.

[Jan-Poo]

I find it strange myself, but how exactly am I supposed to explain the fact that Kyrie claims that her hell lasted 18 years and ended after 18 years? If you know how, please help me.

[luckyssol]

Assuming 1962 is the date Asumu cut in between them. Kyrie burned with envy between 1962 and 1980. So when Asumu died in 1980 she stopped burning with envy regarding having Rudolf stolen from her but became envious again because Battler reminded her of Asumu. So maybe it's an 18+6 scenario.

Otherwise, the end of her hell was in 1986 when Battler decided to accept his family and return. It's unclear though why this would be the end of her hell.

Why would Rosa know about this?

Given how easily Kyrie spilled her guts to Jessica I don't see any problem with that kind of conversation coming up between Kyrie and Rosa. In episode 1, Kyrie and Rosa were the ones on the outside during parts of the family conference. They probably had opportunities to chat with each other during breaks, etc.

Spoiler for Kyrie and Rosa:

Another point from episode 6. Kyrie had known Asumu before Rudolf and Asumu had even met.

Hachijou: "When did Asumu come into the picture?"
*scene switch*
Kyrie: "......She was one of those who swarmed around Rudolf-san. ...No, not even that. She was just one of his fans."
Jessica: "Did you ever talk with her...?"
Kyrie: "Of course. ......I knew her well. Ever since the very beginning, before Rudolf-san even knew her name. ........I'm sure she was quite intelligent herself. And cunnung. ......I tried to use my intelligence to stick out, ......but she did it in the exactly opposite way."

If we use the 1962 theory then things become even more confusing regarding how they could have known each other so long ago. Of couse, given their estimated ages (Using Oliver's timeline)

[Leafsnail]

Hmm... actually, it's very easy to solve Battler's closed room if we just allow Shkannon.

Sure, it's with a stupid method, but Battler does say afterwards that the solution is silly, and that it "might not be called a mystery". Also, it satisfies the condition that it's "part of Beatrice's heart" (Shannon and Kanon being the same person would, like Kinzo already being dead, be an important secret of Beatrice).

Spoiler for I'm sure someone else has already made this theory, but I'll lay it out myself anyway:

After Erika left the room, Shannon climbed out of the window and down to the ground (remembering that the seal on the windows of the room she was in were never confirmed to be still intact). She runs over to Battler's guest room, and (here's the silly bit) changes her personality to Kanon. She then walks in, meaning that Kanon "entered the room" and rescues Battler in the way described in the game. She then hides in the closet/ under the bed/ wherever and (second silly part) her personality changes back to Shannon. Thus, while Kanon has not left the room (in keeping with the red text about Battler being the only one to leave), he is no longer in it.

You can either say "since Erika was acting so illogically, Beatrice responded in kind and made the pieces act completely weirdly", or you could try and embellish it a bit while keeping it functionally the same.

Spoiler for Embellished slightly more sensical version?:

The first twilight was faked as a prank on Erika, and thus those still in the room are suspicious of what she is doing. They send Shannon out (perhaps they're already in on the Shannon/ Kanon thing, which was only ever a prank on Battler and Erika? Or something? I dunno) to make sure that the others are ok. She goes down... and finds that 5 of the victims of the first twilight have had their heads chopped off!

She runs over to Battler's room, and is horrified to see that Erika, who has apparently murdered 5 people, is in there. Hearing a strange commotion, she runs up to the door, and sees Battler there. Using her newfound confidence as her Kanon personality, she asks him what is wrong, and Battler explains the situation quickly. Shkannon realises that she is far better at hiding than Battler, so agrees to swap places with him. Once she's in the room, she reverts back to Shannon, who she feels more comfortable as while alone.

Yeah, it's still ridiculous. If there's a better sounding theory, I'd take it.

[Jan-Poo]

However while regarding Rudolf Kyrie talks as if the problem was resolved, and indeed it was. When she talks about her envy concerning Battler she doesn't say it as if it was something that ended, she talks as if she still is envious for Battler being born from Asumu and not her.

I have no problems with the idea that Kyrie told Rosa exactly what she told to Jessica. The problem is even to Jessica Kyrie never said that the envy caused by Battler ended, but she did say that her hell ended, and there are all the reasons to think she was talking about her not being able to be with Rudolf.

As for the problem of time. There isn't any real problem with my timeline.