[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[izmosmolnar]

Hm maybe i misinterpreted that, gonna check it out.

[Jan-Poo]

You are not the first person that says this, so i'm wondering if i missed something. However the description in the first episode didn't leave any doubt on me. This is a fan made picture of the dining room:



With the exception of Kinzo, Genji and Kanon (that never appear on this scene in any episode) this is exactly how I imagined it.

I also seem to remember that Battler says: "at the start of the dinner there where two vacant chairs". One of them is Kinzo's the other is Krauss's. If that's true then there's no vacant chair for Maria's father.

EDIT:

i checked and i found something that doesn't make sense:

I quote the important parts:

Next to Natsuhi oba-san, in the sixth row and in the final seat on the left-hand side, was Kyrie-san.

here we learn that on the left side there are only six seats. It would be safe to assume that the same goes for the right side.

The seat opposite to Kyrie-san was empty even though everything was set out. According to this ranking system, that spot was the seat where Rosa oba-san's husband should be sitting

So far it's not a problem. Rosa doesn't have a husband so Battler is talking hypothetically, he's not necessarily talking about Maria's father.

....Even though he wasn't supposed to be coming, his place was made up.

This is a problem. I don't really know why Battler says that. Obviously when the dinner comes Nanjo takes that very place, i think it's clearly stated. So why is Battler saying that place is reserved for an inexistent Rosa's husband?

But there's more. Later we see Krauss and Nanjo trying to make Kinzo go down for lunch with no avail. Then Krauss says: Nanjo let's go eat. And that means Nanjo joined them for lunch, in fact a little later (after a long scene with Kinzo and Genji) he's there with everyone else, supposedly is eating too. Where the hell was he seating? It's been stated before that there are six seats on the left side and they are all occupied. Do the right side has seven? Very unlikely. Battler at this point mentions how sad is the empty seat of the family head, he doesn't mention any other empty seat.
Imho... Battler was on drugs when he said that seat was arranged for Rosa's husband. It was clearly arranged for Nanjo whom he still didn't meet.

EDIT2

I checked the manga. As expected it shows only six seats per side. Nanjo is shown sitting on the last of the right side (pag 37 first volume). Funny thing is Battler this time asks if he's Maria's father. Jessica then answers that "Maria's father didn't come". That's funny, did he even showed up in the past? Anyway there's no empty seat for him.

[izmosmolnar]

Well it seems my memory doesn't suck as much as I feared (huh what a relief in the glorious age of 24 ), even though my ability to find it again was indeed terrible. Thanks again Jan-poo .
I honestly dunno what to think, I remembered that Battler states they set a place for Maria's dad somewhere in the back, but I always assumed Nanjo must be sitting one place below somewhere that, ergo they leave that place intact for the whole time. Or I don't even find it entirely impossible that Nanjo would sit on the bottom end (facing Kinzo's place), so I'm a bit clueless now. As Jan-poo points out too, there is no clear details which place he's sitting down, when he comes back.

Anyway in case Battler wasn't on drugs when he stated about the setting front of Kyrie, and they indeed pointlessly set up a setting for Maria's dad, it's quite odd they don't set one for Ange, despite how she attended such meetings previously.
It's possible he didn't know Nanjo's background when he stated that, but can he really naively imagine Maria's dad to come? He'd expect him to be a resident of the island or what? Because he clearly didn't come with them on the boat, and no one mentioned him before neither.

edit

and in the final seat on the left-hand side

In my interpretation that only means, that the left side has no more seats next to it, but it doesn't necessarily means that the right side must be symmetric with it though (ergo it's possible there's two settings in front of Kyrie).

[Jan-Poo]

Well i don't think the manga would mess up so bad, it only shows 13 seats and it shows Nanjo in front of Kyrie. Then the place at the other side of the table is usually reserved for the important guest and Nanjo certainly isn't. That's the place that Beatrice would take. I'm almost positive that apart from that single line nothing has been said about a seat arranged for Maria's father, and I also seem to remember that when dinner comes Battler says that Nanjo takes the seat in front of Kyrie.

Maybe it's something Battler made up himself, i mean how he's supposed to know that the seat in front of Kyrie is arranged for Rosa's husband? Probably in the past he's always seen that place vacant (it looks like he never met Nanjo before) and his child mind always regarded it as Rosa's husband's seat.

[Graus]

Now this might be a bit odd question seeing how EP4 isnt fully translated yet but does EP4 look into Virgilia at all?

I'm quite curious as to what her

Spoiler:

role/relationship is with Battler after the big event of EP3

[Marion]

Spoiler for Virgilia, Unpatched:

Yes, Virgilia does come back. At some point in the game (after we get through the majority of the Ange scenes and finally return to Rokkenjima after a million years) "Kinzo" basically goes psycho-insane and summons Ronove, a new demon Gaap, three Siestas (00, 410 and 45) and Virgilia at the exact same time. Now according to Episode 3 summoning 410 and 45 was a big thing for Eva-Beatrice to do, according to Ronove, but here Kinzo summons six demons all at once.

Anyways, Virgilia does appear and does a lot more fighting than the last time.

Spoiler for Virgilia, Patched:

However, at the start of EP 4 when Ange and Battler have their first conversation, Battler talks a little about how he's going to be cautious with trusting Gretel because of the Virgilia incident after Ange cautions him not to be so trustworthy of anyone who lends him a bone.

[Nabiki Asakura]

Just for someone wha was talking about ange and maria's father, Don't think too much, actually the answer is:

Spoiler:

Ange is Maria's father, TADAM ò_ó

I'm waiting for the answer arcs when we will discover that maria's father is actually

Spoiler:

the servant that is said to had an accident in the first game

just a theory, but....


ok ok, so, I have a question, maybe someone have answered it before in the topic, but there are 39 pages, so please understand my situation o3o

I've not finished even the first 9 translated chapters, but i'm with a little problem to understand two things

Spoiler for is it a spoiler afterall?>XD:

is Umineko's Okonogi the same as Higurashi's one?

[Graus]

Originally Posted by Marion

Spoiler for Virgilia, Unpatched:

Yes, Virgilia does come back. At some point in the game (after we get through the majority of the Ange scenes and finally return to Rokkenjima after a million years) "Kinzo" basically goes psycho-insane and summons Ronove, a new demon Gaap, three Siestas (00, 410 and 45) and Virgilia at the exact same time. Now according to Episode 3 summoning 410 and 45 was a big thing for Eva-Beatrice to do, according to Ronove, but here Kinzo summons six demons all at once.

Anyways, Virgilia does appear and does a lot more fighting than the last time.

Spoiler for Virgilia, Patched:

However, at the start of EP 4 when Ange and Battler have their first conversation, Battler talks a little about how he's going to be cautious with trusting Gretel because of the Virgilia incident after Ange cautions him not to be so trustworthy of anyone who lends him a bone.

So let me get this straight, Virgilia is classified as an

Spoiler:

demon? or does she just belong into the same caste as Beatrice so that you can summon her?

[izmosmolnar]

I was thinking the same thing just yesterday, about Okonogi. Timeline-wise it might be possible. Higurashi is in 1983, so in 1986 he probably already came back from Hinamizawa. He survives every Higurashi scenario we have seen so far (I can't play all the games though, I might be wrong on that).
Of course that would assume he befriended Hideyoshi throughout the 3 years somehow, or they knew each other before, and got into the position of company-manager, but for some reason he kept the cover name for his company (might bring good luck or something, but it's also possible he only changed locations for the company and kept the name and everything possible).
My reasoning is due to, in 1986 Hideyoshi already regarded him as a company manager (at least I seem to remember that, I'm not 100% sure)

However I believe he is just an Easter-Egg character, and not the same Okonogi.

[Rias]

Okonogi is quite similiar to the one in Higurashi...he's still got the wink, the hairstyle, his first name being Tetsuro, and his self-protecting stance.

However, if this Okonogi is indeed the same Okonogi from Higurashi, then there's a high chance that Amakusa is indeed Hibari13 from Higurashi...

[Jan-Poo]

I'm more of the idea he's just a recurring character. Ryukishi is a Final Fantasy fan isn't he? Maybe Okonogi is just the "Cid" of the "when they cry" series.
At the same time Hibari13 and Juuza can be seen the same as Wedge and Biggs.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Graus

So let me get this straight, Virgilia is classified as an

Spoiler:

demon? or does she just belong into the same caste as Beatrice so that you can summon her?

Spoiler for Virgilia:

Yes. I have a personal theory that Virgilia's TIPs reveal she and Beatrice were in cahoots all along.

EP 3 TIPs: "At the same time that she was Beatrice's teacher she also served as the magician of Beatrice's house. Because of that, Virgilia had come in contact with her with the position of a servant."

It says that she's a servant, contracted with Beatrice. So, like Ronovoe, she's going to listen to Beatrice. Her power probably exceeds Ronove's though, but she's still probably considered Beatrice's furniture in a way. As far as her being a 'good witch' well...>__> Let's just say I doubt it~

[Kets]

What is Hibari13?

[Jan-Poo]

I'm not 100% sure but from what i gathered he is a member of the yamainu directly under Okonogi's command. A picture of him doesn't seem to exist, he's just a name (and a voice in Matsuri)

[rstrafford]

I have a strange question, if anyone can answer this, but what exactly is the point of the game between Beatrice and Battler? If it's to prove that witches exist, doesn't Beatrice's presence and the fact that there is a game itself prove that she exists? Why does it have to be a literal game situation where witchcraft is proven or debunked? *shrugs* Not that I mind, since I think the entire series is brilliant, but shouldn't the point then, of the games, be that Beatrice caused the murders instead of just whether witches exist.

Spoiler for Eva in the third game with spoilers from the second and fourth games:

Since Eva is declared the next Beatrice (Ushiromiya Head, Endless Witch, and Golden Witch), does it possibly mean that Kinzo once held that position? Since we know that Kinzo is dead before every game starts, could Beatrice start manifesting herself back as the Golden Witch after Kinzo dies? Could that mean that Kinzo died before when Shannon first sees Beatrice in the second game (while cleaning the portrait)?

Hopefully these aren't too stupid of questions...

[chronotrig]

There's a difference between magic existing in the meta world and in the real world.
Battler seems to have almost unknowingly accepted magic in the meta world, but that doesn't mean that magic exists in the real world. Since neither we nor he knows what the meta world is exactly, there's no contradiction there.

If we assume that all of the magic Battler sees, even the stuff that's supposed to be in the real world, is actually taking place in the meta world, then as long as Battler wins this game, it will be possible to show that magic does not exist in the real world.
Also the fact that Beatrice exists isn't a problem. As long as she can't use magic.

One last thing. Even though we hear the Travelers called witches, there's no proof that the ability to travel between kakera is magic, per se. So the fact that the game is happening (going between worlds) and magic appears to be happening (going to specially prepared worlds?) doesn't have to be true magic.

But yeah, one of the common theories these days is that magic exists but was not used to carry out the murders. That is also perfectly possible, I think.

[rstrafford]

Hn, I see. Thanks for clearing that up. It just seemed weird that he's arguing with someone that (apparently) shouldn't exist and debating whether something that shouldn't happen would happen.

[Jan-Poo]

Chronotrig gave a perfect explanation, however i'm not sure that Battler has thought that much. I'm recalling, for example, what happens on episode3 after the battle between Virgilia and Beatrice. Clearly at that point he never thought that what he was shown could be just a lie and that's why he's so desperate. Virgilia had to help him with the Schroedinger's cat theory to restore his confidence.

To be honest i can't really say that Battler is particularly smart, his best quality is his stubborness. He denies magic even if he knows himself that the whole situation is preposterous. Even if he keeps on stating that magic doesn't exist, the truth is he's not so sure as he'd like to be. In fact Beatrice tells him that after every game he's losing something and she gain power. Imho Battler is not acting rationally, he probably understands that if he let himself thinking too much about where he is and what is happening around him he will definitely lose the last confidence that he's been left with and that will be end. Battler only thinks about winning, no matter what no matter how irrational his claims are. In fact he's ready to use even the most wacky theories in order to deny magic.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

In fact he's ready to use even the most wacky theories in order to deny magic.

That's so true for the tea party... but it's also tragic when we reach the ??? section...

[chronotrig]

Spoiler for up to the tea parties:

True, Battler did miss a lot of good opportunities, like asking if people can leave or come onto the island during the game, or whether body doubles are allowed for EPs after 1. Either of these can easily break almost all the closed rooms, so if he said them in blue, Beato would be forced to counter with the red if that is indeed possible for her to do. At the very least we would get some important clues about the series.

Also, I wonder what would happen if he tried to say 'Witches don't exist' in red. Unlike Beato saying the opposite to Battler, that couldn't lead to a stalemate even if he succeeded, because Beatrice cannot deny all red text and hope to have a chance at surviving. So if he is able to say it, either:

1. Both of them accept the red text and Beato is not a witch.
2. Beato denies that the red text always tells the truth, making the rest of the game a piece of cake for Battler since without the red text to counter it, the Devil's Proof is unbeatable. Plus if the red text was a lie, it's easy to argue that other things she shows him are lies.

Of course, if Battler ends up choking, that's probably pretty bad. Still, he could make the argument that such vital red text simply cannot be said until they 'look into the Braun tube', or that he choked for some other reason, like Ronove strangling him with his magic hands. (in the meta world, of course)