[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[scwizard]

There are hints that Shannon and Kanon are one and the same. The only hint about cross dressing I can find though, is the similarity of Kanon and Shannon's faces, and Kanon's feminine appearance.

[Mikachiru]

Originally Posted by scwizard

There are hints that Shannon and Kanon are one and the same. The only hint about cross dressing I can find though, is the similarity of Kanon and Shannon's faces, and Kanon's feminine appearance.

That doesn't mean s/he crossdresses. Similar faces =/= Crossdressing traps

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by scwizard

There are hints that Shannon and Kanon are one and the same. The only hint about cross dressing I can find though, is the similarity of Kanon and Shannon's faces, and Kanon's feminine appearance.

Had it been said something like "Kanon shared quite a resemblance with Shannon" by narrator or other characters? Had it been said that "Kanon does not look a man"? (Feminine is a subjective term, with vague meaning)


If not, it was either coincidence or red herring cooked.

The above are weak hint at best. Not something like written texts like "Beatrice had been suffering deeply before she was a witch". Or Battler's sin. These would be what I called hints.

What I understand as hints were - sentences or description which had a foreshadowing and substantive content. Central to the mystery.

Sometimes hints were just red herrings. The ability to distinguish red herrings from real hints test one's detective ability and mind-reading skills (read into Ryukishi07's mind)

[Kitsu]

That doesn't mean s/he crossdresses. Similar faces =/= Crossdressing traps

The problem here is if you want clues you'll find them. Kanon's pops up every time Shannon feels troubled or wishs someone to come help her. Gohda's tips in which Kanon forget the key in his pockets and someone still managed to open the door to shed and make a chaos /his other personality took over and did it that way the key was technically still hold by Kanon and noone had to sneak up to him and steal it (which he stated was impossible..I think because he says that he has a light sleep I dunno anymore). Everything Jessica for example teels Shannon knows Kanon etc. A lot of scenes make surprsingly more sense. Their weird close relationship even so they were parted when they were six. "They were originally a pair of furniture" And Episode 6 just throws Kshannon into your face so hard that you have troubles not accepting it.

[scwizard]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

The problem here is if you want clues you'll find them.

I disagree completely. I searched desperately for clues that Shannon and Kanon were different people. I couldn't find anything. Instead the more I searched, the more it became apparent to me that 07 planned Kanon and Shannon being the same people from the beginning.

I don't know what kind of reality some people live in, where every time they look for evidence to support your theory, they find evidence to support their theory and find no evidence that weakens their theory. That's never been the case for me.

[Kitsu]

I disagree completely. I searched desperately for clues that Shannon and Kanon were different people. I couldn't find anything. Instead the more I searched, the more it became apparent to me that 07 planned Kanon and Shannon being the same people from the beginning.

I don't know what kind of reality you live in, where every time you look for evidence to support your theory, you find evidence to support your theory and find no evidence that weakens your theory. That's never been the case for me.

Edit: I'll change my psot since I don't understand the post above

I don't know what you are talking about honestly. I was defending Kshannon saying that if you look for the clues you'll find them. If you have Kshannon in mind than a lot scenes become hints....I don't really get you and what you mean how you disagree....If you evene state yourelf that you find that Ryukishi seems to have planned Kshannon from the beginning

[scwizard]

Only problem with your post is the first sentence, where you assume that clues are meaningless, since anyone will be able to find clues to support an arbitrary theory of theirs. I was saying that in my experience that's never been the case.

Originally Posted by Mikachiru

That doesn't mean s/he crossdresses. Similar faces =/= Crossdressing traps

Why do Kanon and Shannon have the exact same jawline if they're different people and Kanon is male?

If Kanon was male, he would not have such a feminine jawline unless he's very very young or an eunuch or something. You may say it's not strong enough evidence, but you certainly can't say no evidence was given that Kanon isn't a male.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Archer

Actually, the statement is "Nothing outside the island can interfere." It doesn't say anything about outside forces, it just says that nothing outside the island. Furthermore, it doesn't necessarily have to cause a time paradox. I can easily explain that with by saying that it created a stable time loop where Battler dies because an assassin shot him, and the assassin shoots him because Battler was supposed to die.

By the way, for my proof, I can say that nothing in the game contradicts this theory, so it's a valid truth. Furthermore, there is no restriction that states that the blue truth needs a proof anyway, which adds to the legitimacy of my theory. QED.

Let's see. So you say future time isn't outside the island? In what sense do you mean it? If you mean by common sense, then, everyone believes that tomorrow is a different place from today. If you mean by technical sense, then as far as established science goes, time is a dimension, just like length is. Therefore, outside the island also refers to any future or past island. However, this still leaves open the room for other interpretations of "time" and therefore I will concede this point.

The stable time loop, the bullet from the future, the time paradox or the witch of Rokkenjima, whichever form you bring in, its a devil's proof. There is a red truth against those, the "Beato meant this mystery to be solvable by you." but it is still open to interpretations favoring pro-fantasy and therefore it doesn't completely deny the fantasy based theories.

But, here's the catch, its not about red truth or blue truth anymore, its hempel's ravens vs devil's proof. The basic premise of the game itself is this battle to begin with. It goes something like this:

1. There is a witch (or insert fantasy element x) in rokkenjima. Proof of her existence is the unsolvable epitaph murders. This is the devil's proof, that some witch or time traveling assassin or whoever caused the murders.

2. There are humans in the island. If the witch theory is true, then no human is the culprit.

3. As long as the humans are indeed not the culprit, the witch does indeed exist in the island and she did in fact kill the people in Rokkenjima.

4.However, if a human is proven as the culprit, the devil's proof that the witch (or time traveling assassin or bullet or aliens or whatever) caused the murders no longer holds. Therefore, simply by proving that the murders were possible for a human (in the form of Shkanon, Battler or Jessica, who it is doesn't matter), it has already been proven that no witch or alien or time traveler caused the epitaph murders. The witch side is free to claim in blue that they killed the people but simply by the existence of a human culprit theory that doesn't get shot down by any of the red, the blue has been denied. The only way for the witch side (and any other fantasy element) to prove itself as the culprit is now to either state in red that they did kill the people in the island or to give absolute proof that they did it or refute all possible human culprit theories (i.e, provide evidence that no human could have done it).

Do you feel upto the challenge? Prove the witch for me, venerable Mr. Archer. If you can indeed shoot down all of my (or anyone else's) human culprit theories, then I will concede that your fantastical murder method did in fact kill the people in Rokkenjima. But as long as I come up with any human culprit theory, no matter how absurd, you will have to keep refuting them. This is why Beatrice "certainly" can't win and this is why you "certainly" can't prove that something absurd like a time traveler killed the people in Rokkenjima. If you can, do it.

[Mikachiru]

Originally Posted by scwizard

-snip-

Kitsu means you can find many hints pointing to ShKanon early on. I personally don't buy it. It bothers me that no one who resides on the island would notice, like Jessie. :/

[k//eternal]

Arguments like "it's weird/unlikely" or "I don't like it" don't really fly. The whole crime is weird/unlikely from the start. If there are other problems then bring them up, maybe the theory can be deconstructed after all, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by scwizard

I disagree completely. I searched desperately for clues that Shannon and Kanon were different people. I couldn't find anything. Instead the more I searched, the more it became apparent to me that 07 planned Kanon and Shannon being the same people from the beginning.

I don't know what kind of reality some people live in, where every time they look for evidence to support your theory, they find evidence to support their theory and find no evidence that weakens their theory. That's never been the case for me.

My idea of the theory:

Kanon and Shannon were born as separate people. Twins quite possibly.

Kanon dies sometime before the game begins (we know it can't be in 1985, because we saw him with Natsuhi and I see no real for him to lie there, but it can be very soon before possibly) and Shannon takes his place, so nobody realizes it. She gets help from Genji and Kumasawa to do this.

Whole thing I don't like with Shkannontrice or Shkannon: I have not heard a single reasonable motive yet. In EP 5 it was made perfectly clear that using EP 1-4 you can find the solution to all three questions: whodunit, howdunit and whydunit. What is Shannon's motive for killing everyone. You can argue its to be with George, but think of it this way.

Spoiler for EP 6:

George kills Eva because he knows she will be the opponent to his marriage. But wouldn't others disagree, like his father maybe? The idea is that only Eva seems to care. Hideyoshi doesn't give off an air that he would care about who George marries (as long as he gets grandkids ) and even in EP 2 when Rudolf found out about it in the airport there was no sign he told Eva or Hideyoshi, because if he did then we know she would flip out like she did in EP 6.

So what is the motive then for her to kill everyone? Battler's sin? Okay, but that's only one part of it. Beatrice says in red that it is a reason why people die, but only part of the reason.

[Kitsu]

Only problem with your post is the first sentence, where you assume that clues are meaningless, since anyone will be able to find clues to support an arbitrary theory of theirs. I was saying that in my experience that's never been the case.

That has never been the case for you??
If I want Jessitrice to be I could give you a dozens of clues. For example her speech about seperate personalities, the fact that she freakin cackles, is the only character with taht "Mu-face". That she uses certain phrases that Beatrice uses (the talk about going off and to stage in Episode 2) This for example
"He apologized...
not to Milady...
nor to the witch but to Jessica"
If I look at it with the context of Jessitrice this sentece oculd mean that there are three personalities of her. The milday, the witch and her "real" self Jessica. Then there is the scene in which she helps Natsuhi throwing out the people out of the study in Ep 1. If she is Beatrice she helped throwing them out so her accomplice can kill them. You want more?

Arguments like "it's weird/unlikely" or "I don't like it" don't really fly. The whole crime is weird/unlikely from the start. If there are other problems then bring them up, maybe the theory can be deconstructed after all, and there's nothing wrong with that.

My arguments from the last site haven't been destroyed yet.And there is still his talk in the boiler room in Ep 1.
The children of the Fukuin House are supposed to look at each other as family, right? Means that they most likely know each other briefly. If ShKanon were true...then Kanon is not a actual Fukuin Child since he only was created three years ago. Means that one of the other Fukuin Servant must have noticed that a boy is running aorund who claims to be a Fukuin Child but in reality isn't.
And Battler heard Kanon mourning about Shannon being choosen as a sacrifice. If Shannon really didn't lay there and both were the same person that doesn't make sense at all. It was nowhere implied that Kanon or someoneelse knew that Battler was around so a fake talk would be a lame explanation.

[scwizard]

Originally Posted by Mikachiru

Kitsu means you can find many hints pointing to ShKanon early on. I personally don't buy it. It bothers me that no one who resides on the island would notice, like Jessie. :/

Ahh ok. I thought you were trying to say before that there was no crossdressing evidence in 1-4.

Anyways, that's implying that no one has noticed. As we learn in episode five, people have actually noticed that Kinzo is dead. They're just either hiding it for certain reasons, or haven't revealed their suspicions for certain reasons. More behavioral analysis is needed.

[ijriims]

Don't use the so called hints or clues to find the identity of real Beatrice. People just see what they believe and reaffirm it.

Use common sense, logics and facts(red texts) instead!!

[Archer]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

Let's see. So you say future time isn't outside the island? In what sense do you mean it? If you mean by common sense, then, everyone believes that tomorrow is a different place from today. If you mean by technical sense, then as far as established science goes, time is a dimension, just like length is. Therefore, outside the island also refers to any future or past island. However, this still leaves open the room for other interpretations of "time" and therefore I will concede this point.

The stable time loop, the bullet from the future, the time paradox or the witch of Rokkenjima, whichever form you bring in, its a devil's proof. There is a red truth against those, the "Beato meant this mystery to be solvable by you." but it is still open to interpretations favoring pro-fantasy and therefore it doesn't completely deny the fantasy based theories.

But, here's the catch, its not about red truth or blue truth anymore, its hempel's ravens vs devil's proof. The basic premise of the game itself is this battle to begin with. It goes something like this;

1. There is a witch (or insert fantasy element x) in rokkenjima. Proof of her existence is the unsolvable epitaph murders. This is the devil's proof, that some witch or time traveling assassin or whoever caused the murders.

2. There are humans in the island. If the witch theory is true, then no human is the culprit.

3. As long as the humans are indeed not the culprit, the witch does indeed exist in the island and she did in fact kill the people in Rokkenjima.

4.However, if a human is proven as the culprit, the devil's proof that the witch (or time traveling assassin or bullet or aliens or whatever) caused the murders no longer holds. Therefore, simply by proving that the murders were possible for a human (in the form of Shkanon, Battler or Jessica, who it is doesn't matter), it has already been proven that no witch or alien or time traveler caused the epitaph murders. The witch side is free to claim in blue that they killed the people but simply by the existence of a human culprit theory that doesn't get shot down by any of the red, the blue has been denied. The only way for the witch side (and any other fantasy element) to prove itself as the culprit is now to either state in red that they did kill the people in the island or to give absolute proof that they did it or refute all possible human culprit theories (i.e, provide evidence that no human could have done it).

Do you feel upto the challenge? Prove the witch for me, venerable Mr. Archer. If you can indeed shoot down all of my (or anyone else's) human culprit theories, then I will concede that your fantastical murder method did in fact kill the people in Rokkenjima. But as long as I come up with any human culprit theory, no matter how absurd, you will have to keep refuting them. This is why Beatrice "certainly" can't win and this is why you "certainly" can't prove that something absurd like a time traveler killed the people in Rokkenjima. If you can, do it.

...you've completely missed the point of this exercise. I'm not arguing for this theory, I'm arguing that your theory is absurd for the same reason that my time travel theory is. This entire argument is an exercise in absurdity.

Let me put it simply: Your argument makes no sense. It flies in the face of what we know, and creates a whole lot of contradictions that would require completely rewriting characterization to correct. You say that we shouldn't take anything for granted, but you take it to the point where 90% of the script literally holds no meaning. There is a limit to just how much we should doubt these things. This is the very thing that Ep. 5 emphasized with big bold neon letters to NOT DO.

Okay, I've exhausted all I had to say about this argument.

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by scwizard

I disagree completely. I searched desperately for clues that Shannon and Kanon were different people. I couldn't find anything. Instead the more I searched, the more it became apparent to me that 07 planned Kanon and Shannon being the same people from the beginning.

I don't know what kind of reality some people live in, where every time they look for evidence to support your theory, they find evidence to support their theory and find no evidence that weakens their theory. That's never been the case for me.

Oh, geez. I hope you also realize that there's plenty of evidence that Shannon and Kanon aren't the same person, especially in EP5, and that to interpret that evidence in a way that still allows Shkanon you have to look at it with eyes biased towards that theory . Not saying that all the evidence is 100% clear but...if you remember that Battler and Erika saw them in the same room in EP5 and you're not accepting that as evidence against your theory you're being kind of hypocritical.

Just because your theory makes some things easier to solve doesn't mean it's correct. And just because you demand instant alternative theories and people haven't finished them yet doesn't mean that there won't eventually be other ideas that work. The sixth game's been out for just a week (and most people took a few days to finish it) - it takes time to come up with good theories (especially with a crazy closed room like that), and I'm sure in time with second readthroughs there will be other ideas.

That's almost like what Erika did with making Natsuhi the culprit in EP5 just because it was convenient, I'm sorry :/.

EDIT: And I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong either. I just want to find other theories that could possibly be simpler and involve less people.

[Mikachiru]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Arguments like "it's weird/unlikely" or "I don't like it" don't really fly. The whole crime is weird/unlikely from the start. If there are other problems then bring them up, maybe the theory can be deconstructed after all, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I would, but I'm working with a PSP, so I can't write too much. If I remember correctly, EP5 destroyed this theory, right? I haven't read it yet so I dunno.

[Kitsu]

Why do Kanon and Shannon have the exact same jawline if they're different people and Kanon is male?

You might question if he was male with that but....don't try to argue KShannon with that cuz then you also have to argue that Kanon and Jessica are the same person..their faces and jaw lines are also identical to the same degree as Shannon's if not more.

Please consider that Ryukishi is not the best artist and when drawing young people especially shota it might happen fast that their faces look alike.

[scwizard]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

You might question if he was male with that but....don't try to argue KShannon with that cuz then you also have to argue that Kanon and Jessica are the same person..their faces and jaw lines are also identical to the same degree as Shannon's if not more.

Please consider that Ryukishi is not the best artist and when drawing young people especially shota it might happen fast that their faces look alike.

You're right. God damnit art.

However Jessica is a different height from the servants, while Kanon and Shannon are exactly the same height.

[Kitsu]

However Jessica is a different height from the servants, while Kanon and Shannon are exactly the same height.

The anime would like to have a word with you, everyone knows that Kanon can grow and shrink in seconds

Not quite if you look at the high than you also have to cnsider their shoes. Look at Kanon's huge heels and compare with Shannon (or what Shannon's shoes are supposed to be if it weren't for the art). If you think about that than Kanon is smaller than Shannon (poor him lol) So please don't look at the art to much.

Edit: Footwear? what the hell am I writing?