Penguin Drum - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

For most of that time it was the Momoko fantasy, and now - rather than try and face an uncertain future - she's transferred that faith to something else (Shouma).

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think she's talking about her encounter with Shouma in the context of fate because she's unable to face an uncertain future. Rather, I think her congratulating his father makes a strong point that she's decided to face reality, a reality that includes Shouma.

But let's wait and see what happens

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I'll stick to my guns on Ringo, because for her entire life she's felt the need to use the crutch of believing that her decisions were unimportant, that she was just following a chosen path. For most of that time it was the Momoko fantasy, and now - rather than try and face an uncertain future - she's transferred that faith to something else (Shouma). There's nothing wrong with faith or belief, but I think she's also afraid of anything she can't explain away.

Ah, now I see where you're coming from.

You think that Ringo doesn't want to take personal ownership of her own decisions, and wants to chalk everything up to "fate" as a way of skirting personal responsibility.

That's possible, I suppose.

I'm inclined to see her in a more positive light myself, but then I've always liked Ringo a bit more than yourself, so that's probably to be expected, lol.

[Sugarless Ocean]

^ The opening sequence has him in front of what looks like to be a caged bird. The scar might have to do with his obsession for birds. Just throwing it out there.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by creb

Maybe when younger, but I don't think Kanba would have so many playmates of the female variety if they were still being ostracized. My guess is very few kids around them in the present know how they are tied to those "terrorists" (like how Ringo didn't; and if there was a person who would have had reason to realize, Ringo is it). I'd also say the only real reason Sho seems to have no friends is because he's so fixated on guilt over what his parents did that he's his own stumbling block when it comes to making friends, and not because the students around him know what his parents did and shun him for it. Again, in the present. Flashbacks seem to indicate in the past, when it was all fresh, their peers may have had some idea.

Fair points. I do think the brothers have taken their sense of guilt over the actions of their parents too far, yeah. I was mainly just trying to explain how somebody could feel tied down by the standard set by their parents.

As an aside, it's kind of amusing how they've only seemingly gone to school...once? twice? this season. I admit to knowing next to nothing about the Japanese school system, but my own highschool flunked anyone absent more than five days a quarter.

Anime is frequently very funky this way, yeah.

We actually saw the scars on him in the flashback an episode or two ago. As the "incident" was unfolding, so it's always been something that had to have occurred prior to it.

Part of me can't help but see these scars as being due to young Tabuki being a victim of the yakuza (i.e. he had his fingers cut off and then re-attached). I'm probably being too imaginative here though, lol.

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I do think that the brothers are taking this to a bit of an unhealthy extreme, but sociologically speaking, it really can sometimes be difficult to escape character presumptions based on what your parents were like (this is particularly true for teenagers, I think). It can feel like you're being punished for the crimes of your parents, or have lofty expectations thrust upon you based on what your parents are like.

Of course people would treat them differently after the case broke. But being ostracized for a time because your parents are terrorists have nothing to do with a girl who dies of a long term disease.

Since common sense doesn't work to explain that reasoning, maybe it's religious.
But is there any religion out there who teach that Fate (clearly, God) makes you pay of your life for your parents crime if those are terrible enough? I've been raised in a Christian family and never heard of such things.
Whatever the brothers believe in, I'm glad I'm not sharing their views. Looks pretty messed up to me...and then I remember Kanba is working hand in hand with the group his parents belonged too. Organization which launch terrorist attack in the metro in 95 ->Aum Shinrikyo->sect 'orz No wonder...

[mellomarie]

great episode, definitely more laidback than last week's.

pretty shocked that momoka is the PotC! I was definitely part of the camp that believed that the hat was an extension of himari, but i'm cool with being wrong!

confused about one thing though, when did sanetoshi meet momoka? after her death? i know the sequence hinted toward it but i'm curious if they had met before. i guess her rejection of him might mean she's already in love with tabuki.

not to mention, how DID she even become the penguin hat?

the vial sanetoshi used look like the same red life force that was pulled out of kanba. i wonder who's it might be--her fated one? hmm.

ringo's growth was palpable this episode but i felt like it's been happening for awhile now. ever since she put sho's life before the diary, i felt like she's been changing for the better.

now i'm curious as to why PoTC wants the diary. her interactions with Ringo now are even more interesting, she was quite rude to her little sister!

[YayPepsi]

I've been raised in a Christian family and never heard of such things.

Here's something from the Bible..

(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

Basically it's a long version of the saying "the sins of the father will be revisited upon the son."

[Archon_Wing]

Shall we initiate our survival strategy? But what price is this gonna come with?

I didn't know that penguindrum could have emotional impact. But apparently it can. And the ending song... wow.

9/10. I'm glad Himari's still around.

[molitar]

Ok I'm completely lost 100%.. After episode 10 I lost it. Can someone please explain what PoC stands for? And please explain what the current theory is? Why did Satenoshi the librarian bring back Himari? And what does Natsume want to crush? And from the phone call she also paid a price for Himari appears she contacted Satenoshi. She won't give them the diary but she pays a price and has Satenoshi go to Himari. I'm even more confused. And anyone have an idea of WHAT their parents did exactly? He hears they have a healthy baby boy than initiate a plan called the Survival Strategy and kills many?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by molitar

Ok I'm completely lost 100%.. After episode 10 I lost it. Can someone please explain what PoC stands for?

PotC = Princess of the Crystal. The hat, the spirit possessing Himiari. She's really Momoka, who died 16 years ago during the attacks.

Originally Posted by molitar

Why did Satenoshi the librarian bring back Himari?

He himself said this is a secret, so we don't know why he did it... yet.

Originally Posted by molitar

And what does Natsume want to crush?

Some people say Kanba, but we don't know yet...

Originally Posted by molitar

And from the phone call she also paid a price for Himari appears she contacted Satenoshi.

She paid a price for Mario (her brother), not Himari. And yes, she was talking to Sanetoshi.

Originally Posted by molitar

She won't give them the diary but she pays a price and has Satenoshi go to Himari.

No, Sanetoshi went to Himari out of his own accord, not because Natsume asked him to. And she won't give the diary to the Takakura because she needs it for Mario.

Originally Posted by molitar

And anyone have an idea of WHAT their parents did exactly?

They led a bombing to the Tokyo subway.

[maplehurry]

Many people around the world believe things happen for a reason. It's part of the Christian doctrine, at the very least, and it's probably the same for other religions too. Are all these people kidding themselves for thinking this way? I don't really think the series is trying to make such a point.

That's the problem. I am worried the series' going to idolize this belief more than it deserves to be...

Oh well, for every steins gate anime, there's something like this to balance things out...

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

That's the problem. I am worried the series' going to idolize this belief more than it deserves to be...

I disagree. I think the series is neither going to idolize nor demonize this. Believing in fate is not a problem. The problem is using this belief to avoid facing reality. I think that's the actual subject matter of the series rather than "fate" itself. At the very least, Ringo's situation goes along those lines.

[molitar]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

PotC = Princess of the Crystal. The hat, the spirit possessing Himiari. She's really Momoka, who died 16 years ago during the attacks.



He himself said this is a secret, so we don't know why he did it... yet.




Some people say Kanba, but we don't know yet...



She paid a price for Mario (her brother), not Himari. And yes, she was talking to Sanetoshi.



No, Sanetoshi went to Himari out of his own accord, not because Natsume asked him to. And she won't give the diary to the Takakura because she needs it for Mario.



They led a bombing to the Tokyo subway.

Thanks.. ok and why would she want to crush Kanba she admitted she is targetting him for love? Does seem right she wants to crush him if she loves him. BTW is Mario in the same position as Himari? I thought she meant the one possessing the hat was named Mario because that is the first time I remember hearing his name mentioned.

Natsume, is an idiot and should give up on Kanba if she loves him because if she has any damn brain in her head.. if Himari dies than Kanba will never forgive her and it will be foregone conclusion she could never obtain him. She is just another stalker but unlike Ringo who stalked without doing much she is using her penguin balls to remove their memories as well as kidnapped his younger brother. She is the dangerous one.

Thanks for the info.. gives me some perspective and knowing what is going on now I totally lost it after episode 10 before this summary.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by molitar

BTW is Mario in the same position as Himari?

Yes, and he has a penguin hat too.

[Tyabann]

Did... did anyone else absolutely FREAK at the revelation that the 'subway' is actually an underground hanging monorail system?


That's like the biggest twist in the show so far.

[Sol Falling]

"Those who are born wealthy, those born of beautiful mothers, and those born into war or poverty." Such is fate. Such is the law of cause and effect in our world. Some things are lost whose spaces can never be filled again. Some things are desired which can never be known. A human being is indeed shaped by the things which made and surround him. Those are his limits, those are his path. Shouma asks: if our lives are written before they've begun, then why were we ever born in the first place?

If Himari's death is not actually punishment for holy ash being sprinkled at the foot of the apple tree, so what? From Shouma's perspective, it is the simple truth that Himari is fated to die. And if so, why was she even born? Why did she or anyone struggle? This defeatism comes from the same human root of Ringo's statement "I'd have rather never found out about Shouma's parents."

Determinism is the logical conclusion of chasing after and believing in the laws of causality. One thing begets another; by understanding the cause, the reaction is elementary. Is there any happening or chance which the laws of cause and effect cannot summarize? What outcomes can rationality and the scope of human knowledge fail to know? Thus it is that people come to believe that the fate of the world is determined in the infinite, and accept the fact that human will and struggle will never amount to anything.

Shouma's fatalism, and Ringo's initial missions of "Destiny", presume the effect. Because the "cause" is known, the "Destiny" is inevitable.

Conversely, I believe in fate, and as such was attracted to Ringo's monologue from the outset. But it is not the 'effect', but rather the 'cause' that I believe in. I believe in the law of cause and effect, that everything happens for a "reason". Because there is a reason, that is why it can be said that everything experienced reveals some truth about the world. It is this continuous accumulation of knowledge that gives my life meaning. If I understand the 'cause and effect of the world, someday, I will be able to do something for someone else. In this sense, I am indeed following a "fate" of miraculous encounters changing my path and leading me forward.

I don't know how much the character Ringo really "embraces" fate at the moment, though. Tabuki comes off as a more consistent (but somehow less enthusiastic) proponent of "the meaning of things" than she does, imo.

If you look at the "miraculous encounters with somebody" aspect of Ringo's monologue, in fact it seems to apply more directly to Sanetoshi. What is his "love at first sight", "a person who sees the same view of me" but his own 'fated encounter'? What are "the world's cries of help" but the accumulation of knowledge which leads to his "optimal path", which gives his life meaning? Fate, that's what. Then, "Fate" will be the moment "Survival Strategy" succeeds and Sanetoshi achieves his destiny; the specimen in Sanetoshi's experiment to "determine the existence of Fate" is Sanetoshi himself.

To return to the original thought: Momoka rejected Sanetoshi because she knew she was not actually so special. A man who conjured up a narrative of fate around himself and was oblivious to the fact that Momoka could not see any of it.

Incidentally, this episode happens to be the first one I've given a repeated viewing. Maybe 'cause I'd forgotten something; maybe 'cause I was bored; maybe I wanted to hear the ED again? But anyway, a new speculation arises: the "futari to" Sanetoshi speaks directly to are the PotCrown and the PoCrystal. I also managed to have apparently missed that the Tokyo Sky Metro is an underground hanging monorail.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I'll stick to my guns on Ringo, because for her entire life she's felt the need to use the crutch of believing that her decisions were unimportant, that she was just following a chosen path. For most of that time it was the Momoko fantasy, and now - rather than try and face an uncertain future - she's transferred that faith to something else (Shouma). There's nothing wrong with faith or belief, but I think she's also afraid of anything she can't explain away.

You are assuming that she is going to become as dependent on whatever it is that you think she was referring to about Shouma as she was in her belief that she had to become her dead sister. That's a big assumption, especially when we don't even know what exactly she was talking about. The way I see it, she is happy to have met the Takakuras and feels that was fate but is she really going to use that as an excuse to go on with her life? I doubt it. You can see that things have changed for her. Not only is she no longer trying to be Momoka, but she also accepted her father's new life on her own stands. I really doubt she perceives Shouma as an object of fate the way she viewed her diary. Not even remotely.

A meh episode imo. Not much happened... the information that we were given, we already knew, more or less. It was slow, solemn and serene but it wasn't impressive like episode 10.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

But anyway, a new speculation arises: the "futari to" Sanetoshi speaks directly to are the PotCrown and the PoCrystal.

It can also be interpreted as "let the two of us (you and I) search for the Penguin Drum together".

So it's possible he was talking about Momoka (the hat) and himself.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It can also be interpreted as "let the two of us (you and I) search for the Penguin Drum together".

So it's possible he was talking about Momoka (the hat) and himself.

The whole dialogue, he was also talking about knowing stuff later etc. It's a bit unclear but I for one think he was definitely referring to the two hats or well, their respective personality.

Spoiler for best part about the episode, don't open spoiler without seeing episode:

Also, that "lolwut U MAD?" had me laugh for like three mins ^^

[Nina.Wolken]

Originally Posted by YayPepsi

Here's something from the Bible..
[...]Basically it's a long version of the saying "the sins of the father will be revisited upon the son."

Many thanks. Had honestly never been taught this... and think I'll pretend I never read it.
But it does give a bit more sense to the siblings way of thinking. If they were taught this, added to the story there mother red them, I guess Kanba and Shou words make sense.