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Old 2012-12-15, 00:23   Link #11461
DawnEmperor
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Okay, why is it a given that he can't understand what they go through? There's a difference between not liking something, and not understanding what others go through. Not saying he's right in his methods, but I just wanted to clarify this semantic point.

While I agree that he can be overly stubborn, I don't think his methods are inherently "wrong" per se.
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Old 2012-12-15, 02:42   Link #11462
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
Okay, why is it a given that he can't understand what they go through? There's a difference between not liking something, and not understanding what others go through. Not saying he's right in his methods, but I just wanted to clarify this semantic point.

While I agree that he can be overly stubborn, I don't think his methods are inherently "wrong" per se.
Haha. Well, to clarify I was not really talking about Zenkichi's "methods", but moreso his beliefs or attitude. Alternatively his perspective.

I mean, for the first example, do you think it was realistic for Zenkichi to believe that the Student Council could reach/save Medaka without Team Loser? Reasonable that he should refuse their help because it might hurt Medaka's emotions? Zenkichi did, and it was this attitude of aiming too high while at the same time not looking at realistic consequences of failure which describes Zenkichi's attitude as false/empty optimism. Zenkichi believed/hoped he could do something, which was not only impossible but pointless to do.

Actually, to be more accurate, I guess you could call this "false" Plus, or "trying too hard" Plus.

So with regards to what I said about "understanding" what Medaka, or other Abnormals/Minuses had seen, I wasn't really talking about hardship or experiences. "Gone through" wouldn't quite be the right words. It was just more like, a realistic/accurate understanding of reality. Of what's actually possible, what their limits are, stuff like that. Also, what's worth doing in the first place. In general, the reason why other types of characters would be more likely to understand this kind of stuff (realistically achievable things) would either because they have a higher capacity to understand things quicker (i.e. Abnormals) or have more experience fighting against not being able to achieve them (Minuses).
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Old 2012-12-15, 05:20   Link #11463
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On that note, I find it interesting that apparently Zen now has the skill to see his own limitations. Which actually explains something I had been wondering about.
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Old 2012-12-15, 07:08   Link #11464
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
On that note, I find it interesting that apparently Zen now has the skill to see his own limitations. Which actually explains something I had been wondering about.
What does it explain ?

I also thought zens new skill is intresting since when people know their limits they can grow up . I think zenkichi is pathetic since he is the normal human who went to a magical world because he fell in love with future owerlord of that world . Zenkichi has potencial to become president if he doesnt blindly follow medaka but in the end nothing changes even after election .

Sad thing is no matter how much zenkichi tries medaka can overcome that in instant with no effort so i really wonder whats the point of trying , as long as zenkichi dont accepts he will never be with medaka like professor fukurou he will never be happy and i hope this arc will serve that purpose .
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Old 2012-12-15, 14:28   Link #11465
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Well there has to be some sort of trick, it would just be too random to have Zenkichi disappear for a chapter to piss off Shiranui then have Kumagawa and Shiranui fight for a couple of pages and then bring Zen back 2 chapters later, that'd just be too lame~
especially with the buildup from the beginning of the chapter saying Kumagawa probably has something planned,

And it's Kumagawa, he doesn't go down without screwing you over a bit first~
I think the trick is by loseing Kumagawa wins
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Old 2012-12-15, 15:08   Link #11466
ccie20012
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I am very surprised to read this.
Why are all (or some sort of an active part of the forum) are convinced that Zen must be change.
He subjectively (for himself) looks as fine.
He is satisfied with his life.
He loves the most important character of this manga (Medaka). I have the proof.
She loves him. I have the proof.

It reminds me time when any assured me that the Medaka never admits his love for Zen.
"Medaka not likes Zen". (c) I remember this moment in the forum.
The impression is that people follow the rule:
"If the facts are contrary to my opinion, so much the worse for the facts."

Quote:
he will never be with medaka
Proof please. At the moment Medaka plans to marry him (in due time). Zen no doubt in this. Other manga characters to doubt? No one.

Last edited by ccie20012; 2012-12-15 at 15:21.
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Old 2012-12-15, 15:12   Link #11467
Dr. Casey
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This series has a pretty awesome fanbase right here. ~11,500 posts of enthused, in-depth analysis and discussion, and a minimum of "omg this series sucks sooooo much it's totally jumped the shark"-style rage that infests so many other AnimeSuki discussions. Kinda makes me want to read the manga just so I can join in.
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Old 2012-12-15, 15:14   Link #11468
Tyabann
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
On that note, I find it interesting that apparently Zen now has the skill to see his own limitations. Which actually explains something I had been wondering about.
Wait, what exactly?
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Old 2012-12-15, 17:06   Link #11469
kagato3
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Originally Posted by kenjtr View Post
What does it explain ?

I also thought zens new skill is intresting since when people know their limits they can grow up . I think zenkichi is pathetic since he is the normal human who went to a magical world because he fell in love with future owerlord of that world . Zenkichi has potencial to become president if he doesnt blindly follow medaka but in the end nothing changes even after election .

Sad thing is no matter how much zenkichi tries medaka can overcome that in instant with no effort so i really wonder whats the point of trying , as long as zenkichi dont accepts he will never be with medaka like professor fukurou he will never be happy and i hope this arc will serve that purpose .
I wouldn't say Zen follows Medaka blindly He follows her for what I think is 3 reasons.
1) she will drag him along whether he wants to go or not and it's too much of a pain to fight with her about most things that as long as it doesn't conflict with his belifes he will grugeingly go along with it snarking all the way (basicly the whole reason he ended up in the student council to start with is because she would not take no for an answear)

2) He understands just how much the normal world and Medaka don't mix well so he has made him self into a buffer zone to protect the 2 from each other. He's made it his goal to keep her human while at the same time keep her existance from crushing those around her. I think he's always had a good understanding of his and others limits and that is why he has been able to be around Medaka for so long and still be saneish.

3) He realy likes her. He may have just figured out he loves her but he has always known that being with her is intersting if not enjoyable on some level to him.
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Old 2012-12-15, 17:25   Link #11470
kenjtr
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Sad thing is all that caused by zenkichis pity for medaka , he couldnt stand medaka being all alone when she was a child and decided to help her but in the end he ended up the one who is suffering the most in medakas wacky verse .
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Old 2012-12-15, 17:29   Link #11471
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by kenjtr View Post
Sad thing is all that caused by zenkichis pity for medaka , he couldnt stand medaka being all alone when she was a child and decided to help her but in the end he ended up the one who is suffering the most in medakas wacky verse .
I think it was more admiration than pity that kept him around her when they were kids. To him she was super smart and cool and being around her was fun. The admiration kinda died down when he started to realize she was godlike 24/7 but by then he already had a strong relationship with her, she refused to let him get some distance and he had lingering feelings for her so just kept quiet and followed her lead.
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Old 2012-12-15, 18:52   Link #11472
kenjtr
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
I think it was more admiration than pity that kept him around her when they were kids. To him she was super smart and cool and being around her was fun. The admiration kinda died down when he started to realize she was godlike 24/7 but by then he already had a strong relationship with her, she refused to let him get some distance and he had lingering feelings for her so just kept quiet and followed her lead.
Its sad that zenkichi has feelings for medaka and that shows us how love destroys a shounen character , luffy is very clever in that department .
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Old 2012-12-15, 19:01   Link #11473
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by kenjtr View Post
Its sad that zenkichi has feelings for medaka and that shows us how love destroys a shounen character , luffy is very clever in that department .
Not really, love can be an extremely powerful tool for character development if done right.

Personally, I don't believe Zenkichi's love for Medaka harms the character in this case, he knows who he loves and isn't afraid of saying it out-loud...which is something many shounen heroes don't do at all. Then again I'm not part of the "Zenkichi is boring and useless" group and like him quite a lot as he is.
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Old 2012-12-15, 19:26   Link #11474
DawnEmperor
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Regarding Clarste's point, it seems like it would be a natural extension of Devil Style(though it really hasn't been mentioned much since the election). Because fate has no whims in his favor or against him, he has to rely on his own abilities. It's notable that even with Altered God mode Model Zenkichi, he gets cut up pretty badly but barely gets the win.

@Randrak Hmm, I'm left thinking back to Sol's point about "If Zenkichi stays with Medaka", then neither of them have really learned anything or progressed. What's your thought on that?
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Old 2012-12-15, 20:14   Link #11475
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
@Randrak Hmm, I'm left thinking back to Sol's point about "If Zenkichi stays with Medaka", then neither of them have really learned anything or progressed. What's your thought on that?
Hmmm...well, I do agree that Zenkichi's view of Medaka being a perfect being that is always right is quite the negative trait to his character, while I agree that his thoughts on this aided in making people perceive Medaka as a boring godlike MC, he only played a small part in it as Medaka's own actions took the front seat in telling people just how superior she is to everything (that...and he wasn't the only one that viewed her as such).

But he has since changed and developed, he hasn't been shown to agree with her in everything or just blindly following her reasoning. He doesn't seem to me as the old Zenkichi that believes Medaka is always right and always above everyone. This was a changed aided by two things, the realization of his love for her and the guidance from friends.

I believe that without Ajimu and other's Zenkichi would probably still be the same as before, after being told off by Medaka when he failed to solve the riddle and complained he would just revert back to the blind follower of the Medaka cult.
The OLD Medaka x Zen relationship was actually pretty poisonous to both characters since they fed off eachother in the worst ways, Zenkichi followed the one that was always right and Medaka never saw wrong in her actions either. But with the help from others this relationship changed, I don't see it as poisonous at all now they now feed off eachother but there's actual nutritious value in those meals.

So...no, I don't really agree that if Zenkichi stays with Medaka then neither of them have really learned anything or progress because they HAVE changed already, admittedly it was thanks for their friends and companions a lot of the time but that's something that happens a lot in real life as well.

This is a complicated issue to discuss, everyone has certain feelings about characters and everyone has certain feelings about those character's involvements in the story. Some people perceive some changes in characters as good while others perceive it as bad. It's not that it is impossible for people to understand eachother's view points, but this never happens completely and a full agreement is rarely seen.
I'm a simple man...I don't like to think too much about things when I'm reading manga or watching anime.
I tend to stay away from posts like Sol's who tends to dig too deep for my liking at times. I stay away from certain discussions because I see people often over-thinking things, over-complicating things but get angry at me for simply suggesting a simpler view on things. This is something I only see in a very few number of threads I frequent, it's good that people get in-depth discussions out of a shounen manga...but I like to stay simple, state a short opinion on the chapter when it comes out and then let the others think about the psychology of it all.
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Old 2012-12-15, 21:46   Link #11476
kagato3
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I don't think Zen ever thought of Medaka as someone that was always right. He rearly agrees with her methods other then they some how seem to work out. I think the reason people see it that way is because if you boil it down Medaka's belife system is based off of Zen's all-be-it in a more childlike way, so of course he is going to think what she is doing is right most of the time it's what he would do.
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Old 2012-12-15, 21:48   Link #11477
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
I don't think Zen ever thought of Medaka as someone that was always right. He rearly agrees with her methods other then they some how seem to work out. I think the reason people see it that way is because if you boil it down Medaka's belife system is based off of Zen's all-be-it in a more childlike way, so of course he is going to think what she is doing is right most of the time it's what he would do.
If I remember correctly Zenkichi actually stated that Medaka was always right near the beginning of the series.
But like I said, this seems to have changed for a long while now.
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Old 2012-12-15, 23:58   Link #11478
Sol Falling
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If you guys are following the anime he says the same thing again ("Medaka is always right", explicit words) during the Miyakanojou/Flask Plan confrontation. The most probable point you could note for when Zenkichi began wanting to disagree with Medaka is when Medaka decided to trust Kumagawa, and made him Vice President. In fact, that was the direct cause which lead Zenkichi to feel like he had to prove himself which lead to the Treasure Hunt incident.
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Old 2012-12-16, 02:35   Link #11479
Thth
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In fact, that was the direct cause which lead Zenkichi to feel like he had to prove himself which lead to the Treasure Hunt incident.
The direct cause of the Treasure Hunt incident was Zenkichi receiving Parasite Seeing more than anything else....
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Old 2012-12-16, 08:43   Link #11480
Ouverture
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Actually, to be more accurate, I guess you could call this "false" Plus, or "trying too hard" Plus.
In fact he's not a Plus, but a Zero
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