Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Haak

And I also think a lot of people would be able to take Saber's death in HF much better if she was given a perspective similar to the one she was given after Emiya faced her one on one in that Bad ending.

I doubt it, the thing with Saber Alter was that she was actually given lots of exposure and looks into her internal thoughts in HF if you pay attention. That is why any time after the encounter in the forest, you see her warn Shirou to not get closer and what he should do to help Sakura. You *could* add more stuff, like her thoughts about being blackened, but it would unnecessarily add what we would already know. That AM is a strong curse and it affects negatively all who touch it. Moreover, Saber is also shown to be bonding with him much earlier and much quicker anyway, so that would be shifting the spotlight where it doesn't need to be shifted in an already dense plotline with a veritable ton to cover.

Also, there is really no reason to elevate Rin more than she already is as a character, because she gets plenty of it in HF. I would even say the same of Sakura too. It's not really that hard to adapt if you plan things carefully, there is just a TON of things to go through and explain in HF. That is pretty much the only problem. Too many very important perspectives.

[Thess]

They could add the monologue she has in F/UC as she darkens. It's perfect, because it's exactly the opposite to Gilgamesh's reaction in Fate/Zero.

[mAc Chaos]

I thought Gilgamesh didn't have a reaction other than his usual LOL GET OUT I AM AWESOME.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

I doubt it, the thing with Saber Alter was that she was actually given lots of exposure and looks into her internal thoughts in HF if you pay attention. That is why any time after the encounter in the forest, you see her warn Shirou to not get closer and what he should do to help Sakura. You *could* add more stuff, like her thoughts about being blackened, but it would unnecessarily add what we would already know. That AM is a strong curse and it affects negatively all who touch it. Moreover, Saber is also shown to be bonding with him much earlier and much quicker anyway, so that would be shifting the spotlight where it doesn't need to be shifted in an already dense plotline with a veritable ton to cover.

Also, there is really no reason to elevate Rin more than she already is as a character, because she gets plenty of it in HF. I would even say the same of Sakura too. It's not really that hard to adapt if you plan things carefully, there is just a TON of things to go through and explain in HF. That is pretty much the only problem. Too many very important perspectives.

I'm really only talking about a few extra scenes in key areas which i don't think would overburden the storyline. I don't think there was much given from Saber's perspective that connects with Fate Zero. I think it would be worth adding an extra few touches to when she's talking about Kiritsugu to Shirou or what she thinks of Ilyasviel, since I think it would help with the continuity. Now that I think about it, it would also help if there was maybe an extra scene of Sakura briefly recalling Kariya. That's essentially what I'm talking about. I've always felt there was a bit of a gap between Fate Zero and FSN where I sometimes feel like events in Fate Zero should've been given at least a passing mention from the characters in FSN. The anime could smooth things over a bit.

And I still definitely think there needs to be a perspective given near her death. The more people are aware of her acceptance of her own death like in the Bad end, then the less people will rage imo. Trying to achieve that from a 3rd person narrative is a bit difficult since you still never know for sure how much of Saber is still in Alter Saber but an actual perspective would make it much clearer.

And about Rin, the reason I think she needs a a status as a main character is because she pretty much deserves it. As you said she gets plenty of but I've always thought it was more than that. I've always thought she was practically a main character but without a proper POV.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Haak

That's essentially what I'm talking about. I've always felt there was a bit of a gap between Fate Zero and FSN where I sometimes feel like events in Fate Zero should've been given at least a passing mention from the characters in FSN.

Hard to do when Fate/Zero hadn't been written yet, and wouldn't be for almost three more years.

[Altima of the Gates]

I'm really only talking about a few extra scenes in key areas which i don't think would overburden the storyline. I don't think there was much given from Saber's perspective that connects with Fate Zero. I think it would be worth adding an extra few touches to when she's talking about Kiritsugu to Shirou or what she thinks of Ilyasviel, since I think it would help with the continuity. Now that I think about it, it would also help if there was maybe an extra scene of Sakura briefly recalling Kariya. That's essentially what I'm talking about. I've always felt there was a bit of a gap between Fate Zero and FSN where I sometimes feel like events in Fate Zero should've been given at least a passing mention from the characters in FSN. The anime could smooth things over a bit.

I suppose it would be fine to segue it, just as long as it is managed carefully. And there was a specific time she could be made privy to it, like when Shirou hears about Kiritsugu from Kotomine, or her hearing about Shirou meeting Ilya in the park might provoke it. As long as it isn't too much of a divergence from the plotline that it seems unnatural.

And the main reason this was done was due to FSN being made well before Zero, the prequel will obviously make things difficult when it comes to canon continuity, but Hollow had several Zero specific tidbits. Sakura not mentioning Kariya is understandable, given that all these things were rather a traumatic part of her life, and there are some things she wouldn't want to spill. Same with Ilya, she mentioned Iri and Kiritsugu, but not until way into the route did she really let Shirou in on much there. With internal monologue for them, sure.

And I still definitely think there needs to be a perspective given near her death. The more people are aware of her acceptance of her own death like in the Bad end, then the less people will rage imo. Trying to achieve that from a 3rd person narrative is a bit difficult since you still never know for sure how much of Saber is still in Alter Saber but an actual perspective would make it much clearer

She did in fact seem at many times to be like Saber, which was why it was so painful for Shirou, because, as I mentioned, she gave him warnings about Sakura and all that, so it was obvious there was for both Saber and Sakura pieces of themselves despite the madness(or at least I hope people got that..). I wouldn't begrudge her a stirring monologue for anime only people to assuage them, but for the rest of us, knowing she is pretty much always going to Avalon no matter what takes some of the sting out of it. And I like Saber.

And about Rin, the reason I think she needs a a status as a main character is because she pretty much deserves it. As you said she gets plenty of but I've always thought it was more than that. I've always thought she was practically a main character but without a proper POV.

I still don't see why she needs more than that over the other protagonists. She has a large amount of exposure, so I don't see how they could really do much more with that. Or how she deserves it.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by GDB

Hard to do when Fate/Zero hadn't been written yet, and wouldn't be for almost three more years.

¬_____________¬

OH GEE THANKS I TOTALLY DIDN'T KNOW THAT!!!!

Seriously, I'd much rather avoid explaining plot holes using Doylist explanations. Nor even Watsonian explanations like Altima provided.

I know why the gap is there. I'm just saying it could do with being filled up.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

I suppose it would be fine to segue it, just as long as it is managed carefully. And there was a specific time she could be made privy to it, like when Shirou hears about Kiritsugu from Kotomine, or her hearing about Shirou meeting Ilya in the park might provoke it. As long as it isn't too much of a divergence from the plotline that it seems unnatural.

That's what I'm expecting. I don't think any additional scenes are required. Just a more complete perspective on the scenes already there.

She did in fact seem at many times to be like Saber, which was why it was so painful for Shirou, because, as I mentioned, she gave him warnings about Sakura and all that, so it was obvious there was for both Saber and Sakura pieces of themselves despite the madness(or at least I hope people got that..). I wouldn't begrudge her a stirring monologue for anime only people to assuage them, but for the rest of us, knowing she is pretty much always going to Avalon no matter what takes some of the sting out of it. And I like Saber.

Wait...she does? I thought she only went into Avalon because she got the Avalon from Shirou near the end of Fate?

But still I'd much rather the anime be just as informative as the game. Watching the UBW film was frustrating as hell precisely because of this.

I still don't see why she needs more than that over the other protagonists. She has a large amount of exposure, so I don't see how they could really do much more with that. Or how she deserves it.

Well I'd personally like to see much more of her perspective into how she wants to handle Sakura. They could provide her perspective and still make her not stabbing Sakura at the last minute a surprise, if they do it right (It wasn't even much a surprise in game anyway). And I've always felt there were scenes triggered by her doing things off screen like how she decided not to press the issue when Shirou first refused to kill Sakura. It would've been good to have an extra screen of Rin wondering what to do and trying of think things out as she heads her way to Shirou's house.

As for how she deserves, well she does actually get a main character POV at both the prologue and the epilogue, is pretty much the only character that consistently serves as Shirou's ally in all three routes as well as having a final main character-ish confrontation with Sakura at the end. Not to mention the fact that she's based on the character that was originally meant to be the main character.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by sagdashin

Wouldn't every problem adressed for a new F/SN adaptation by Ufotable be solved simply by changing the narrative from 1st to 3rd person, like how Zero was written/told? Then everyone gets much screen time and inner thoughts for us to hear, not just from Emiya (1st person) as in the game/anime.

That would require them to overhaul the entire story to the point they might as well make a Super Route that just has a new storyline instead, since the game is specifically designed to be told through Shirou's POV, so changing that into 3rd person would mean they have to re-write everyones role, change a lot of the ''twists'', give closer to more of the cast etc.

Basically, it wouldn't be a Fate/Stay Night game at that point ...

Originally Posted by Haak

And I also think a lot of people would be able to take Saber's death in HF much better if she was given a perspective similar to the one she was given after Emiya faced her one on one in that Bad ending.

Well, you need to take into consideration that this is a game where you can only complete it by fully seeing every possible ending (Good, Normal, Bad and True) and taking everything you've seen through Shirou's eyes (and occasionally the other cast members) and then try to guess the other cast members thoughts. With Saber Alter, we do get the impression like she is intentionally limiting herself and trying to help her opponents win and kill her through the Sparks Liner High and the last bad end where she curses Shirou for the first time for not killing her and making her continue to be Evil, as well as praising him when he succeeds, not interfering or stopping during their fights or the fight with Berserk etc.

I agree such a thing can't pass by in an anime unless they add more to clarify it, but as it is in the game and the limitations that are inherent to eroge's, they did a good job with it.

Originally Posted by Haak

Wait...she does? I thought she only went into Avalon because she got the Avalon from Shirou near the end of Fate?

Her getting the scabbard back doesn't really make a difference, since in the legend even after the sheath is stolen from him(her), King Aurthur's injured body will be ferried away to Avalon (the actual location) where he will rest after the Battle of Camlann, until the time comes for him to come back (Basically, that the idea where they got Jesus' and Nero's resurrection from). It's inevitable that it will happen to Saber once she gives up on the contract for the Grail.

Of course, the question that was on my mind (and going by the lack of response in the Q&A thread, it seems no one knows for sure) is whether Shirou killing Saber means that she goes there directly or if she still gets another shot at getting the Grail again, and if she does get another chance what changes will her personality undergo, if any?

Originally Posted by Haak

Well I'd personally like to see much more of her perspective into how she wants to handle Sakura. They could provide her perspective and still make her not stabbing Sakura at the last minute a surprise, if they do it right (It wasn't even much a surprise in game anyway). And I've always felt there were scenes triggered by her doing things off screen like how she decided not to press the issue when Shirou first refused to kill Sakura. It would've been good to have an extra screen of Rin wondering what to do and trying of think things out as she heads her way to Shirou's house.

As for how she deserves, well she does actually get a main character POV at both the prologue and the epilogue, is pretty much the only character that consistently serves as Shirou's ally in all three routes as well as having a final main character-ish confrontation with Sakura at the end. Not to mention the fact that she's based on the character that was originally meant to be the main character.

I actually think that was still Shirou, they just genderbent the old main protag into a man :P As far as I'm aware, Rin wasn't meant to be the main player character in the game.

Yeah I agree on things not being all that surprising in the game. By the time you get to Hevean's Feel you realize there are little actual surprises in this game (I mean really, it wasn't that hard to figure out things like who was Rider's master and what the Shadow was, even if the game made both Rin and Shirou act all surprised about it -_-) but you sort of still have to give the scene a little bit of suspense and make the player doubt themselves to keep things from getting too predictable.

Mind you, it would've helped had they made it more clear what she was thinking when she said those things to her sister ...

As for the rest, well the thing is that no matter how important Rin is in the story, this is still a game where she is a more like a target the character you control gets to at one point sleep with or fantasize about (or in the case RN, just fantasizing), so ultimately they couldn't have given her much of a bigger role when Shirou, the player character, couldn't have any method of accurately knowing what she was thinking about.

Had this been a novel, then it would've made more sense for Rin to have a large sum of the narrative focused on her and what she does in the background, but this is a game where it's constructed to have her fall in love with what is meant to be partly an avatar of the player so ...

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Haak

¬_____________¬

OH GEE THANKS I TOTALLY DIDN'T KNOW THAT!!!!

Seriously, I'd much rather avoid explaining plot holes using Doylist explanations. Nor even Watsonian explanations like Altima provided.

I know why the gap is there. I'm just saying it could do with being filled up.

You said you felt like Fate/Zero events should've been mentioned in Fate/Stay Night. How would that even be remotely possible when Zero didn't come until almost three years later? Even the first anime came out a year before Zero did, so I really don't see how the events could have been mentioned, let alone should have.

If they do a remake (in, who knows, 7 years maybe...), I'd hope they take Zero into account, and if ufoTABLE does Heaven's Feel, I'd hope they do the same. But until then, there are inconsistencies that can't be properly linked in-universe.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by GDB

You said you felt like Fate/Zero events should've been mentioned in Fate/Stay Night. How would that even be remotely possible when Zero didn't come until almost three years later? Even the first anime came out a year before Zero did, so I really don't see how the events could have been mentioned, let alone should have.

I didn't mean that Nasu should've mentioned Fate Zero events in FSN. What I meant was the characters should've mentioned Fate Zero events when you'd expect them to be relevant.

@ Arabesque - I don't actually have any problem with how it was in the game. You're right in that it had to be like that. I'm just saying what would be good for an anime version.

[mAc Chaos]

Yes, but those events were probably not even conceived of at that point. At least in that amount of detail.

[Haak]

LIKE I SAID...

...I'd rather not use Doylist explanations to explain away plot holes, even if they're reasonable ones. I know why the plot holes are there but that still doesn't mean I can overlook them completely. It still feels weird, so I'd rather they'd be filled if they can. That's all. I'm not blaming the writers for it or anything. I'm just looking at it from a purely storyline point of view.

[BladeEntity]

I think a super route might work better to tie up all plot threads started in Fate/Zero. But that would be more work for Nasu and T-M to attempt

[Thess]

While I don't agree 100% with Haak. It's perfectly fine for Rin to get focus (since the Epilogue of HF and the Prologue are on her POV), just as long as Shirou, Sakura and Ilya get focus too. HF is the perfect route for that since it allows this.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

Had this been a novel, then it would've made more sense for Rin to have a large sum of the narrative focused on her and what she does in the background, but this is a game where it's constructed to have her fall in love with what is meant to be partly an avatar of the player so ...

I'm going to disagree a little. While the three heroines can fall Shirou, Saber doesn't always fall for him and Rin seems to fancy other people beside him (most of them are girls); Sakura's the only one who always loves him since the beginning. Likewise, Shirou's affections for them can remain platonic (or short lived crushes/admiration) and have no impact to their storyarcs: Saber found her answer in UBW without falling for the guy in True ending (and with Shirou not falling for her); Rin got more development outside her 'route' (her route is focused on Archer, even the 'opt in' option to get it is to save the guy or not even). The only romantic affection that does trigger plot from the beginning is when Shirou returns Sakura's feelings. You can remove the romantic chunk from Saber and Rin, but seems rooted in case of Sakura.

If you want to adapt for plot and remove the harem factor? You can do it very easily. Rin can be a ust best friend-mentor co-protagonist without falling into love interest slot. Same with Saber.

(Also Ayaka + Proto Saber were closer to Rin + Archer than Shirou and Arturia, according to the materials? There seem to be traits from many characters mixed in them).

[Altima of the Gates]

Well I'd personally like to see much more of her perspective into how she wants to handle Sakura. They could provide her perspective and still make her not stabbing Sakura at the last minute a surprise, if they do it right (It wasn't even much a surprise in game anyway). And I've always felt there were scenes triggered by her doing things off screen like how she decided not to press the issue when Shirou first refused to kill Sakura. It would've been good to have an extra screen of Rin wondering what to do and trying of think things out as she heads her way to Shirou's house.

It couldn't hurt I guess. Although what you are looking for is pretty much in the titled "Tohsaka Rin" interludes in HF (specifically II and III) where she tells Shirou how she feels and her motivations. To the wrong person perhaps, but that is all there.

(I mean really, it wasn't that hard to figure out things like who was Rider's master and what the Shadow was, even if the game made both Rin and Shirou act all surprised about it -_-)

The first I'd agree, but the second was actually something very hard to guess at. The Shadow was attached to Sakura, but it's inaccurate to say it *was* Sakura, given that it went around on it's own while she slept. Only later on, when the two entities had merged as she became the Grail (you see Sakura saying the dreams became "more familiar") did you have Sakura walking around in a zombie like daze around day 12. So it's no wonder the two of them had been confused, if you take away our, the audience's all-seeing eye, things were very confusing because of the purposeful manipulation of information by the villains or a certain part of the protag's party.

Shirou just has an excellent sixth sense, like when he found Rider's sigils for the Bloodfort. Don't look at it as if anyone would know the Shadow was connected to Sakura at first glance, he is just a freak at analysis and intuition where magic is concerned.

Of course, the question that was on my mind (and going by the lack of response in the Q&A thread, it seems no one knows for sure) is whether Shirou killing Saber means that she goes there directly or if she still gets another shot at getting the Grail again, and if she does get another chance what changes will her personality undergo, if any?

She has seen the true form of the Grail, so I'd say it is a 100% certainty that she doesn't have the same wish or desire, so, contract annulled. She's going to Avalon.

Originally Posted by Haak

LIKE I SAID...

...I'd rather not use Doylist explanations to explain away plot holes, even if they're reasonable ones. I know why the plot holes are there but that still doesn't mean I can overlook them completely. It still feels weird, so I'd rather they'd be filled if they can. That's all. I'm not blaming the writers for it or anything. I'm just looking at it from a purely storyline point of view.

Don't feel too bad, some of these would be holes are taken care of in Hollow(which, to get this out of the way, unless it is 4th wall breaking stupid comedy, consider what the characters say and behave canon and true information wise), but you'll just have to wait and see when it is finished.

[mAc Chaos]

But Saber's memory would be wiped, wouldn't it?

[Altima of the Gates]

Why would it be? She is technically still alive, so she'd have a vague memory, like we see in "Continuation of the Dream" but then she would pass on to rest in Avalon like her legend says, waiting for the appointed time. Same would happen in UBW Good when Rin, her master, passes on(if she took no one else as her contractor of course).

[mAc Chaos]

Do you think she would still be dark?

[GDB]

She'd have to be for the logic to stay consistent. She retains memories because her spirit goes in the container or whatever, rather than a copy of her spirit. She definitely retains the memories of the war, as shown at the end of Zero. Thus, if her spirit gets corrupted in the war, then she should, in turn, be corrupted to at least some extent when she returns to Camelot.

I like to think it'd be omake/Carnival Phantasm levels of corruption at that point though, rather than full on corruption as shown during Heaven's Feel.

[Allium]

Fate/Stay Night Realta Nua (PS Vita) OP Sequence [Vimeo.com]