Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[saner]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

Acceptable.

I'm really happy that we both agree on this point

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by saner

I'm really happy that we both agree on this point

He sold out a lot of people that wanted to go to war, so yep, he's a traitor. The majority of Japan was willing to go through with it, so I really do pity him for being in the minority.

[saner]

I hope Lelouch won't end like Light Yagami. He can be a great ruler.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by saner

I hope Lelouch won't end like Light Yagami. He can be a great ruler.

I don't think Lelouch is physically inclined enough to teach swimming lessons.

[K3cT]

In the grander scale of things, Suzaku probably did the right thing when he killed off his dad. Otherwise, this whole rebellion would not have happened.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by K3cT

In the grander scale of things, Suzaku probably did the right thing when he killed off his dad. Otherwise, this whole rebellion would not have happened.

Why? What, because you think Brittania will kill every man woman and children in Japan?

Of course not. Britannia need the Numbers as slaves supporting the economy of the pure-blood immigrant colonists. That's why Kyoto Group survived; Britannia needed to keep the economy going, so even though they suspect the Kyoto business conglomerate might be funding resistance they couldn't afford to probe too deeply.

Suzaku didn't do Japan any favours; Just ask anyone in the Kyoto Group.

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by ashlay

I don't think Lelouch is physically inclined enough to teach swimming lessons.

Well, he was physically inclined enough to tug an underwater mine towards its mooring point...and God knows moving those things around isn't that easy, even with Archimedes' principle making it somewhat easier.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valliant

Why? What, because you think Brittania will kill every man woman and children in Japan?

Of course not. Britannia need the Numbers as slaves supporting the economy of the pure-blood immigrant colonists. That's why Kyoto Group survived; Britannia needed to keep the economy going, so even though they suspect the Kyoto business conglomerate might be funding resistance they couldn't afford to probe too deeply.

I was considering that as one possible reason why they wouldn't all be slaughtered. But it would've been likely that many of the Japanese resisting Britannian occupation would have been killed anyhow. If you look at it now, much of the population is divided into those who have accepted Britannian rule and those that are opposed to it, and even then, it appears to very balanced. They have no trouble killing off those opposed to Britannia (but that was primarily under Clovis's order). Certainly, I do believe many Honorary Britannians were all for a resistance... that is, until the Prime Minister was murdered. I do personally agree that Suzaku was probably not doing a favor for the majority of the Japanese people, but he did extend the lives of many of those who would otherwise been involved in the conflict. Live today, fight tomorrow.

I can't imagine how they would have been treated had they resisted. I'm perceiving something along the lines of slavery.

And besides, he wasn't referring to Suzaku as a noble character, he was looking at it from a viewer's standpoint and how Lelouch would've never jumpstarted his rebellion without the Prime Minister's murder.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

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And besides, he wasn't referring to Suzaku as a noble character, he was looking at it from a viewer's standpoint and how Lelouch would've never jumpstarted his rebellion without the Prime Minister's murder.

True, Suzaku left Lelouch with a rather good pool of strong soldiers to use for his rebellion. He gave Japan a fighting chance for the future.

Of course not. Britannia need the Numbers as slaves supporting the economy of the pure-blood immigrant colonists. That's why Kyoto Group survived; Britannia needed to keep the economy going, so even though they suspect the Kyoto business conglomerate might be funding resistance they couldn't afford to probe too deeply.

Then that would mean Area 11 is the only area that has any economy, considering from what Lelouch stated the other areas were throughly conquered (As in they didn't surrender so I assume many large portions of them were wiped out).

Just ask anyone in the Kyoto Group.

Where did they state this? I thought Kirihia was one of the people who defended and protected Suzaku.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Where did they state this? I thought Kirihia was one of the people who defended and protected Suzaku.

Kirihara can probably understand what Suzaku was trying to achieve which is why he had to protect him. Suzaku would have been a walking corpse otherwise had the truth come out.

The Kyoto group is nationalistic so they've donated funds and equipment to the Order. I believe that it is implied that they would've gone to war had it not been for the Prime Minister's death.

Though, it could be the other way around as well. If they were extreme nationalists, they would've smited Suzaku. But it seems Suzaku's interference gave them an chance to wait for something more opportunistic (aka, Lelouch). Given Lelouch's leadership and ability, he is just the right person to lead the rebellion against the empire, whereas they would've been massacred during the invasion (somewhere it mentioned that that was the first time Knightmare frames had been used in actual combat). The Prime Minister's death essentially might've allowed time for the Japanese to acquaint themselves with the frames and produce them to place themselves on a level battleground.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

I was considering that as one possible reason why they wouldn't all be slaughtered. But it would've been likely that many of the Japanese resisting Britannian occupation would have been killed anyhow. If you look at it now, much of the population is divided into those who have accepted Britannian rule and those that are opposed to it, and even then, it appears to very balanced. They have no trouble killing off those opposed to Britannia (but that was primarily under Clovis's order). Certainly, I do believe many Honorary Britannians were all for a resistance... that is, until the Prime Minister was murdered. I do personally agree that Suzaku was probably not doing a favor for the majority of the Japanese people, but he did extend the lives of many of those who would otherwise been involved in the conflict. Live today, fight tomorrow.

I can't imagine how they would have been treated had they resisted. I'm perceiving something along the lines of slavery.

And besides, he wasn't referring to Suzaku as a noble character, he was looking at it from a viewer's standpoint and how Lelouch would've never jumpstarted his rebellion without the Prime Minister's murder.

1. Where did you get the idea that there is a balanced amount of people accepting Brittanian rule and opposing it because of Suzaku? What, that somehow you can make resistance end by killing the half that resist? You get half-half because of differences in human opinion, and specifically of how they are treated. If you rule by fear, it is automatic that one half of the population will give in and the other half will resist. And it doesn't matter how many who resist you kill.
(Further, Brittania doesn't care if you resist or not, they will kill you anyway if they "think" you might resist. So to not resist isn't any safer)
Suzaku did not save anyone; it is confirmed that the scene when he, Lelouch and his sister walking around corpses was AFTER he already killed his dad.

Resistance is spawn from anger, racisim and suffering. Unless you think Suzaku created such things, he did resistance no favers.

Certainly, I do believe many Honorary Britannians were all for a resistance... that is, until the Prime Minister was murdered. I do personally agree that Suzaku was probably not doing a favor for the majority of the Japanese people, but he did extend the lives of many of those who would otherwise been involved in the conflict. Live today, fight tomorrow.

The prime minister was believed to have commited suicide. Regardless, you still haven't given any evidence why lives were extended. People fight because they don't want to be invaded, not because their leader is alive.
(Live today, fight tommorow? But if you don't fight when your country is being invaded, when are you suppose to fight? If you surrunder as soon as the enemy shows up, what makes you think you would be able to fight when the enemy is running your country?)

As I said previously, Brittania wasn't out to commit genicide. They need the country they invade to have an economy, otherwise it would be more work that its worth. And what keeps the resistance in Area 11 is NOT the old army, but the merchant families who Britannia can't touch. Even if Japan fought to the last soldier, the Merchant families (Kyoto) will still remain and be funding the resistance.

I can't imagine how they would have been treated had they resisted. I'm perceiving something along the lines of slavery.

And besides, he wasn't referring to Suzaku as a noble character, he was looking at it from a viewer's standpoint and how Lelouch would've never jumpstarted his rebellion without the Prime Minister's murder.

They are ALREADY slaves. They are Numbers for a reason.

Lelouch jumpstarted his rebellion because of CC, and because of Kyoto Group. Suzaku has no claim to assisting either.

[saner]

Suzaku didn't save anyone, he just thinks that he saved countless people.

He just did what was the best in his opinion, without taking into account the situation and results of his action.

He might have thought something like that: "If people continue to fight they will die, so killing my father whose objectives encourage people to fight will save everyone."

Thinking that without risking people's lifes there is nothing you can't do is just stupid. Sometimes it is necessary to risk everything to achieve something.

Suzaku is simple minded. He doesn't think about his action in long time perspective, he takes his action to achieve quick results therefore he can't defeat Lelouch in chess

[Juvyniled]

1. Where did you get the idea that there is a balanced amount of people accepting Brittanian rule and opposing it because of Suzaku? What, that somehow you can make resistance end by killing the half that resist? You get half-half because of differences in human opinion, and specifically of how they are treated. If you rule by fear, it is automatic that one half of the population will give in and the other half will resist. And it doesn't matter how many who resist you kill.
(Further, Brittania doesn't care if you resist or not, they will kill you anyway if they "think" you might resist. So to not resist isn't any safer)
Suzaku did not save anyone; it is confirmed that the scene when he, Lelouch and his sister walking around corpses was AFTER he already killed his dad.

It appears that there is an even balance between the people who have sworn loyalty to the empire and the people rejecting that notion. I won't deny that many of them would have initially been for the war, had it not been for Suzaku's deed. But as a result, many of the people became divided. Are there still people that are opposed to the empire within the ranks of the Honorary Britannians? Sure. But are they willing to sacrifice their health and well-being for their "country"? That is why they have taken up that title.

(Further, Brittania doesn't care if you resist or not, they will kill you anyway if they "think" you might resist. So to not resist isn't any safer)

But it'd be "safer" for them to hold up the title instead of being on the other end of the stick.

Resistance is spawn from anger, racisim and suffering. Unless you think Suzaku created such things, he did resistance no favers.

Like I said in my prior argument, the majority of people would be very unhappy with Suzaku's decision. I can't deny that he did the resistance no favor in preventing conflict, since they practically wanted to fight to the death. But in all honesty, they were fighting a hopeless battle (unless they had Knightmare frames as well, which I'm pretty sure they didn't). Sure, you want to give people what they want, but if you know it's simply going to hurt them, you might try to prevent it. That is probably much more complex than what Suzaku was processing, but that is the effect of it.

The prime minister was believed to have commited suicide. Regardless, you still haven't given any evidence why lives were extended. People fight because they don't want to be invaded, not because their leader is alive.

Unless I received some direct commentary from the directors, I wouldn't know why the Japanese are still alive. The emperor could've ordered mass genocide of all the Elevens. He could've simply enslaved them. But in fact, they were incorporated into the empire. Maybe the Emperor isn't as sadistic as we believed? Or he could be setting them up for something later. To understand why it all was, we'd have to be the person who's dictating the whole scenario. It all seems to be a matter of war: if you surrender, you may/may not possibly be killed, but if you fight, you will be shot at regardless.

However... people do in fact rally with major figures/leaders to "advise" them on what to do. If the Prime Minister was alive, he'd have called for an all-out war, and the people would've listened (that is until they've become so disillusioned that they surrender or commit some sort of seppuku). Unless they really knew that the invading force's leader was some sort of maniacal killing machine like Hitler, they wouldn't throw their lives away without some pivotal figure to tell them otherwise.

(Live today, fight tommorow? But if you don't fight when your country is being invaded, when are you suppose to fight? If you surrunder as soon as the enemy shows up, what makes you think you would be able to fight when the enemy is running your country?)

That is a very very rational statement considering that the people invading you would have given you no opportunity to retaliate. So as my only proof, I'd just have to use this whole anime and where it is right now. Yes, it's unrealistic, but given the situation and circumstances, many things are unrealistic but they just have to be acknowledged.

As I said previously, Brittania wasn't out to commit genicide. They need the country they invade to have an economy, otherwise it would be more work that its worth. And what keeps the resistance in Area 11 is NOT the old army, but the merchant families who Britannia can't touch. Even if Japan fought to the last soldier, the Merchant families (Kyoto) will still remain and be funding the resistance.

The country would have to have a decent economy if Britannia is doing what is doing now. But going back to the period of the invasion, they would have had to prepare for situations in which everybody retaliated anyway, else they would not have gone to war with the Japanese. We all know there are special ruins that the emperor sought in Japan (and he probably needed an "outpost" to prepare an assault on the Chinese). So why oh why are the Japanese still alive? Because as you said, Britannia isn't trying to commit genocide. Besides, they could have simply enslaved them and had them work cotton plantations (yeah it's a harsh reference but that is in fact the reality of it), and kill those who refused.

Unless there is some sort of evidence that the "merchant families", such as the Kyoto group, cannot be harmed, I will assume it is speculation that they wouldn't in accordance with your outline of the situation (the economy). If they ever found out what the Kyoto group was doing, I doubt they would simply threaten them.

They are ALREADY slaves. They are Numbers for a reason.

Lelouch jumpstarted his rebellion because of CC, and because of Kyoto Group. Suzaku has no claim to assisting either.

I don't know what the correct term is, but they aren't really slaves, they're just oppressed. They're not allowed to progress beyond the career limitations of Honorary Britannians (or possibly because of the racist views of Britannian employers, I'm not going to speculate that there is a law mandating that no Eleven is entitled to a professional career). But they can avoid living in meager conditions to living under the restrictive life of an Honorary Britannian. I'm sure they get paid, but slaves do NOT get paid. Quoting Merriam Websters Online Dictionary, the definition of slave is:

1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence

They are definitely not definition 1, and although they have subjected themselves to the treatment of the dominating force, they are not completely subservient. They are free to move about are they not? They don't have to accept their positions, although if they refuse, it will only be detrimental to them.

Suzaku did not contribute to Lelouch's rebellion, but Lelouch's rebellion is only possible thus far because of the Prime Minister's death (I don't want to speculate what would have/have not been, but the circumstances would have changed entirely and it took a specific situation for Lelouch to receive Geass, which along with C.C. is the major benefactor to his cause). I am not stating this because I believe Suzaku should be credited, but I am attempting to interpret what the original poster said.

Originally Posted by saner

Suzaku didn't save anyone, he just thinks that he saved countless people.

He just did what was the best in his opinion, without taking into account the situation and results of his action.

He might have thought something like that: "If people continue to fight they will die, so killing my father whose objectives encourage people to fight will save everyone."

Thinking that without risking people's lifes there is nothing you can't do is just stupid. Sometimes it is necessary to risk everything to achieve something.

I agree with the first three statements. Although the last statement, it'd be stupid if that is all you considered, but it would be even more foolish if you believe that you must risk everything to achieve anything. Regardless if there's a risky method of achieving things, there will always be a safer approach.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Unless I received some direct commentary from the directors, I wouldn't know why the Japanese are still alive. The emperor could've ordered mass genocide of all the Elevens. He could've simply enslaved them. But in fact, they were incorporated into the empire. Maybe the Emperor isn't as sadistic as we believed? Or he could be setting them up for something later. To understand why it all was, we'd have to be the person who's dictating the whole scenario. It all seems to be a matter of war: if you surrender, you may/may not possibly be killed, but if you fight, you will be shot at regardless.

As I keep saying over and over, the emperor doesn't want the Japanese wiped out because Britannia needs "Numbers" to support the Britannian way of life by being the serfs. That's also exactly why Cornelia commented on why Numbers are treated the way they are because it is governmental policy.

It has been mentioned already within the show that the Numbers are needed for maintaining a sustainable economy in conquered areas. Suzaku didn't save anyone because Britannia will not kill every man woman and children regardless, so he did not save his people.

There is absolutely no sign that Japan surrendered. Merely that the armies were defeated. So Suzaku's actions affected nothing, assuming as you said, the defeat was inevitable. Where is the lives Suzaku saved anyway?

Seriously, give me ANY sign that Britannia has a genicidal policy, then we can talk.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It has been mentioned already within the show that the Numbers are needed for maintaining a sustainable economy in conquered areas. Suzaku didn't save anyone because Britannia will not kill every man woman and children regardless, so he did not save his people.

Alright, I will concede to the matter of economic stability. I will have to say this on my behalf: I did not ever view Suzaku as a saviour of his people. He didn't go out and directly save people himself; it was as a result of his actions that more people lived than would have originally had the all-out resistance gone in effect. A lot of people were making an implication that Suzaku saved lives. He did not. But was that his intention? Probably. I suppose it's a matter of how you interpret "not wanting people to die".

I still don't know why you insist that ALL numbers are slaves. Maybe in another country, they might be. But these Japanese are not slaves. Compared to the African Americans on plantations, this is luxury.

There is absolutely no sign that Japan surrendered. Merely that the armies were defeated. So Suzaku's actions affected nothing, assuming as you said, the defeat was inevitable.

Then why was the show suggesting that Japan had surrendered?

Though about the armies, I supposed it would have made no difference. Would they have been more organized in their counter-offensive under the Prime Minister's leadership? Probably, in which case the war would have been dragged out and resulted in more casualties.

[K3cT]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Why? What, because you think Brittania will kill every man woman and children in Japan?

Of course not. Britannia need the Numbers as slaves supporting the economy of the pure-blood immigrant colonists. That's why Kyoto Group survived; Britannia needed to keep the economy going, so even though they suspect the Kyoto business conglomerate might be funding resistance they couldn't afford to probe too deeply.

Suzaku didn't do Japan any favours; Just ask anyone in the Kyoto Group.

Shinjuku ghetto.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by K3cT

Shinjuku ghetto.

a good point. but I would point out that they didn't go into the ghetto to kill everyone. Clovis did it to try and protect his name.

Cornelia similarly did it draw out Zero.


so while they don't care that they're genocidal and thus terrible terrible people, genocide isn't any of the Britannian leaders goal. (though who knows what Schniezel thinks )

[Juvyniled]

Yeah, like ashlay pointed out, it's really more of an isolated incident. It doesn't relate to the empire's overall methodology. Clovis called for that order because he wanted to retrieve his 'goods'. I still can't remember whether Cornelia was the one who ordered the ghetto slayings or not though, but I do remember that she sent in soldiers to exterminate the rebel forces.

[K3cT]

I guess my point is that if the Britannians can massacre an entire area, including the children and the elderly, just to retrieve something; who's stopping them to perform a genocide if the whole nation is opposing them? After all, they don't have a need for the Japanese as they are only after the Sakuradite in Japan. They can always import manpower from another conquered Areas to work in the mines.

Consider also the fact that Clovis is supposedly the 2nd most soft-hearted one among the successors so I honestly can't imagine what would Cornelia or Schneizel do if they are facing a similar situation.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by K3cT

I guess my point is that if the Britannians can massacre an entire area, including the children and the elderly, just to retrieve something; who's stopping them to perform a genocide if the whole nation is opposing them? After all, they don't have a need for the Japanese as they are only after the Sakuradite in Japan. They can always import manpower from another conquered Areas to work in the mines.

Consider also the fact that Clovis is supposedly the 2nd most soft-hearted one among the successors so I honestly can't imagine what would Cornelia or Schneizel do if they are facing a similar situation.

But the way they have already incorporated Elevens into their system, the empire needs them to sustain the economy. It could all essentially play out the way it did during segregation in America. African Americans were essential to the economy by means of paying for transportation. When they boycotted buses, that effectively ruined the economy. But I doubt the Japanese are considering that.

Genocide is always a possibility, but given that the empire doesn't simply consist of nobles, they have their own people to tend to as well. So they conquer foreign territory to expand their 'living space'. But they want to maintain a high standard of living for their people, so they can't simply send people over to conquered territories and just have them work the land. That is where the Numbers come in.

You're right though; why not just make the conquered into slaves? They don't do this possibly because their own people are humane at the very least (not soldiers). Somewhere someone will call for massive upheaval of the current system if there were slaves. So to keep everyone happy, they incorporate them as "faux-citizens" into their empire.