Penguin Drum - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

No, that's only the case if the person is not emotionally averse to having sex with someone they aren't romantically committed to. Had Tabuki willingly fucked Ringo only to find out she wasn't Yuri, maybe he might've been emotionally harmed after all. However, in general I do have much higher standards for what would count as rape against men than against women.

Some guys wouldn't exactly OBJECT to waking up and having a girl on top of him, but it still technically counts as rape if the girl did it full knowing that he was knocked out, and she was completely drug/alcohol-free. How someone is effected by the rape doesn't make it NOT rape, it just makes the event not as awful as it could have been for the victim.

If you punch someone in the dick, but the victim of the punch didn't care, it doesn't mean the punch in the dick never happened!

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Coercing another person into sex without their consent is rape - period. Ringo was about to rape Tabuki, Yuri was about to rape Ringo. I don't care to parse definitions for convenience when it comes to sexual assault.

And that was my point (before getting gang-rapped... metaphorically), Yuri was not coercing (rather seducing) Ringo, unless that drug was again magical and suddenly turned Ringo into a living dutch wife

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

If you punch someone in the dick, but the victim of the punch didn't care, it doesn't mean the punch in the dick never happened!

Which is different from asking to be punched

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Because the motivation, circumstances, and relationships were totally different. I am sorry to point out that these magical drugs that Ringo used and is necessary to turn an unwilling person into a living sex toy do not exist in real life.

Date rape drugs are not "magical drugs" they are real & very illegal. If someone is found using them on a person; Well I don't know about Japan but in the US it is up to a 20 year sentence.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

And that was my point (before getting gang-rapped... metaphorically), Yuri was not coercing (rather seducing) Ringo, unless that drug was again magical and suddenly turned Ringo into a living dutch wife

That's just wordplay. Whether you call it coercing or seducing, she put Ringo into an impaired state of consciousness in order to do it.

[Malkuth]

No it's not wordplay, they are two very different processes.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

No it's not wordplay, they are two very different processes.

No, it's wordplay. Explain the difference if it isn't?

[faburosumakusu]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

And that was my point (before getting gang-rapped... metaphorically), Yuri was not coercing (rather seducing) Ringo, unless that drug was again magical and suddenly turned Ringo into a living dutch wife

Even if she was trying to seduce her (which I disagree), she first had to drug her. I don't think that's a good definition of seduction personally.

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

And that was my point (before getting gang-rapped... metaphorically), Yuri was not coercing (rather seducing) Ringo, unless that drug was again magical and suddenly turned Ringo into a living dutch wife

So slipping someone a drug counts as seducing?

Uhhhh.... what the fuck kinda seducing is that!?

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

So slipping someone a drug counts as seducing?

Uhhhh.... what the fuck kinda seducing is that!?

The Quagmire kind.

But honestly, sure Ringo's an idiot and should know better-- It still doesn't justify anything else that's happening.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

When under certain drugs, you can be both aware but unaware. While not exactly the best example, take anesthesia for example. When on it, you understand what is going on, but your ability to really do anything is inhibited. My last time on anesthesia, I could walk, talk, and understand, but my brain was essentially idle. Its hard to object when you're like this, but its easy to spout nonsense. Everything just becomes limp. Your movements, your thoughts, and your feelings.

Besides, its entirely possible the drug Yuri gave her was part aphrodisiac, which would make it even easier for Yuri to take advantage of Ringo. Essentially dull all her senses except her sex drive. Yuri's intent was to sexually take advantage of Ringo, which to me, counts as rape, regardless of the process it's done.

As far as anesthesia or alcohol, I agree that any drug which makes a person less aware of themselves has the potential of being used for rape. The important point then becomes the threshhold of "awareness" between when we judge a person as in control or not in control of themself. How much alcohol, how much anaesthesia? I proposed a hypothetical standard of "able to comprehend the consequences/implications of sex" in my post before.

I vaguely recollect that anesthesia and alcohol fall under a category known as "depressants"?

In contrast, as to the aphrodisiac, isn't it true that some people make use of aphrodisiacs to increase stimulation consensually? I do think it is obvious that aphrodisiacs make bodily resisting difficult, but I do not think that they have the ability to make even mental resistance impossible. If someone is given an aphrodisiac, it may indeed make it impossible for them to prevent the rape; however, from the perspective of anyone watching, such as the audience of a work of television, I think it should still be possible for them to identify whether the victim is resisting.

Finally, as regards Yuri, my point was that I actually do not see that Yuri's true desire was to take advantage of Ringo sexually. That's why I said, if she had gone through with it, then the rape would have been a tragedy for both her and Ringo. Yuri simply wants to revive/switch the fate of Momoka and be close to someone she loves again. Ringo in that way was an escape for her. The sex was not important to her in itself (and even then, I think; because she loved Momoka, Yuri would have wanted to make sure Ringo was enjoying it). However, if Yuri had proceeded to in fact drown herself in pleasure with Ringo she would also be denying her own true happiness. So I don't think that Yuri was any less pitiable than Ringo here, especially in light of her backstory.

[faburosumakusu]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As far as anesthesia or alcohol, I agree that any drug which makes a person less aware of themselves has the potential of being used for rape. The important point then becomes the threshhold of "awareness" between when we judge a person as in control or not in control of themself. How much alcohol, how much anaesthesia? I proposed a hypothetical standard of "able to comprehend the consequences/implications of sex" in my post before.

I vaguely recollect that anesthesia and alcohol fall under a category known as "depressants"?

In contrast, as to the aphrodisiac, isn't it true that some people make use of aphrodisiacs to increase stimulation consensually? I do think it is obvious that aphrodisiacs make bodily resisting difficult, but I do not think that they have the ability to make even mental resistance impossible.

Finally, as regards Yuri, my point was that I actually do not see that Yuri's true desire was to take advantage of Ringo sexually. That's why I said, if she had gone through with it, then the rape would have been a tragedy for both her and Ringo. Yuri simply wants to revive/switch the fate of Momoka and again be close to her. Ringo in that way was an escape for her. The sex was not important to her in itself (and even then; because she loved Momoka, Yuri would have wanted to make sure Ringo was enjoying it). However, if Yuri had proceeded to in fact drown herself in pleasure with Ringo she would also be denying her own true happiness. So I don't think that Yuri was any less pitiable than Ringo here, especially in light of her backstory.

But how do we even know how aware Ringo truly was? We know that Yuri must've made the calls to Shoma since Ringo was tied up. Hence, Yuri could've easily just told Ringo what to say. Also, the way Ringo talked to Shoma over the phone seemed to be out of character so I don't think she was very aware of what was going on.

[mellomarie]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

And that was my point (before getting gang-rapped... metaphorically), Yuri was not coercing (rather seducing) Ringo, unless that drug was again magical and suddenly turned Ringo into a living dutch wife



Which is different from asking to be punched

how is it seduction if she had to drug her?

Finally, as regards Yuri, my point was that I actually do not see that Yuri's true desire was to take advantage of Ringo sexually. That's why I said, if she had gone through with it, then the rape would have been a tragedy for both her and Ringo. Yuri simply wants to revive/switch the fate of Momoka and again be close to her. Ringo in that way was an escape for her. The sex was not important to her in itself (and even then; because she loved Momoka, Yuri would have wanted to make sure Ringo was enjoying it).

more justification. whatever yuri's intentions were, such as using ringo as an escape, doesn't make the fact that she was about to take sexual advantage of ringo null. it doesn't even matter if she wanted ringo to "enjoy it" (which is crap really because how can you enjoy something you haven't CONSENTED to?). good on yuri for stopping herself but she was about to rape an underage girl.

i mean ringo's intentions for wanting to rape tabuki was to bring her family back together but that doesn't negate it still being attempted rape.

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

The Quagmire kind.

Through use of truly awful Paint skills, everything suddenly makes sense.

Spoiler for Safety for your eyes:

(Don't think too hard about it)

As far as anesthesia or alcohol, I agree that any drug which makes a person less aware of themselves has the potential of being used for rape. The important point then becomes the threshhold of "awareness" between when we judge a person as in control or not in control of themself. How much alcohol, how much anaesthesia? I proposed a hypothetical standard of "able to comprehend the consequences/implications of sex" in my post before.

Thats not exactly a good standard though. Clearly, Ringo was complete out of it, and it wasn't in her abilities to resist, so it should be considered rape.

In contrast, as to the aphrodisiac, isn't it true that some people make use of aphrodisiacs to increase stimulation consensually? I do think it is obvious that aphrodisiacs make bodily resisting difficult, but I do not think that they have the ability to make even mental resistance impossible. If someone is given an aphrodisiac, it may indeed make it impossible for them to prevent the rape; however, from the perspective of anyone watching, such as the audience of a work of television, I think it should still be possible for them to identify whether the victim is resisting.

People do use them consensually, yes, but in this case Ringo wouldn't have done it consensually. But the whole possibility of an aphrodisiac is just conjecture, who the hell knows. All I saw was Ringo being loopy as all shit being nonsensical, while Yuri remained completely aware and was taking advantage of the state Ringo was in.

Finally, as regards Yuri, my point was that I actually do not see that Yuri's true desire was to take advantage of Ringo sexually. That's why I said, if she had gone through with it, then the rape would have been a tragedy for both her and Ringo. Yuri simply wants to revive/switch the fate of Momoka and be close to someone she loves again. Ringo in that way was an escape for her. The sex was not important to her in itself (and even then, I think; because she loved Momoka, Yuri would have wanted to make sure Ringo was enjoying it). However, if Yuri had proceeded to in fact drown herself in pleasure with Ringo she would also be denying her own true happiness. So I don't think that Yuri was any less pitiable than Ringo here, especially in light of her backstory.

While her intentions might not have been purely for sexual reasons, it still stands that what she was trying to achieve involved raping Ringo.

I agree that Yuri is really pitiable, and I do understand her actions, but excuses don't always make up for the actions.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by faburosumakusu

But how do we even know how aware Ringo truly was? We know that Yuri must've made the calls to Shoma since Ringo was tied up. Hence, Yuri could've easily just told Ringo what to say. Also, the way Ringo talked to Shoma over the phone seemed to be out of character so I don't think she was very aware of what was going on.

I already laid out where Ringo's phone dialogue came from and why it made sense.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

lol, let's lay out three things:

1. Yuri intended to rape Ringo
2. due to the influence of the drug, Ringo didn't mind
3. due to knowing that even if she didn't mind, being raped was not a good thing generally, Ringo decided to blame Shouma and his rejection of her (as the reason she didn't mind falling under the influence of the drug).

Actually, I find that the idea that Ringo's dialogue in the phone scene was all lead on by Yuri as opposed to some loose and uninhibited confession of what she was really feeling (as often happens when people fall under a drug's influence) is more unbelievable than not.

edit:

Originally Posted by Tjfarmer

Thats not exactly a good standard though. Clearly, Ringo was complete out of it, and it wasn't in her abilities to resist, so it should be considered rape.

All I saw was Ringo being loopy as all shit being nonsensical, while Yuri remained completely aware and was taking advantage of the state Ringo was in.

This is the point where we apparently disagree. Due to her emotional state (having been tricked into allowing herself to be whisked off on a girl's night out due to her depression of being rejected by Shouma), I thought that what Ringo was saying/how she was acting actually made a lot of sense. That's why I came away with the impression that she was still at least somewhat in control of her faculties, and why she was thinking that if Yuri could make her feel good she might actually be better than that 'loser' (lol) who dumped her, Shouma.

[Malkuth]

Wow, three quotes, give me a break, I am being flamed in another thread too... at least you guys are not calling me a troll, hater, but rather a dangerous !d!ot...

Anyway, so seduction vs coercing, very cynically put the first requires from the object to be either neutral or willing, while coercing assumes at a bare minimum that the object is negatively predisposed to any suggestion.

BUT if you really want to ask if both morally wrong, I they both are. That's why I disagreed with one of the posters some pages earlier that supported that since Yuri did not have sex with Ringo she is redeemable, as well as why I try to explain that whether the subject is guilty or not is irrelevant to the victim's intentions.

Or to make it more simple... YES is YES, NO is NO, but also the "I have no fucking clue what I want, so let's see how it goes" is neither!

In my opinion, save for the magic pills case (not alcohol and sleeping pills, phobicly labelled date rape drugs) started with a neutral (bordering positive) disposition and ended acting like she was enjoying the whole set-up, especially while she was ridiculing Shouma. Now if next episode she is confronted by Shouma about it, and immediately puts all the blame to Yuri, I am pretty sure we are going to have even more pages of flames at me. On the other hand, she might be more critical of herself, and Shouma being empathetic and caring will understand, and we'll have a very interesting couple

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

The Quagmire kind.

But honestly, sure Ringo's an idiot and should know better-- It still doesn't justify anything else that's happening.

Me neither

Originally Posted by faburosumakusu

But how do we even know how aware Ringo truly was? We know that Yuri must've made the calls to Shoma since Ringo was tied up. Hence, Yuri could've easily just told Ringo what to say.

This has been addressed by other posters.

Originally Posted by faburosumakusu

Also, the way Ringo talked to Shoma over the phone seemed to be out of character so I don't think she was very aware of what was going on.

No Ringo is selfish, fragile, and vengeful... her behaviour is totally in character.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

No it's not wordplay, they are two very different processes.

No it's not. Using a drug to induce someone to "consent" to being raped doesn't mean it isn't rape. If the person is drugged, it's not consensual. If it's not consensual, it's rape.

[Malkuth]

Ah! those magic drugs again

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Anyway, so seduction vs coercing, very cynically put the first requires from the object to be either neutral or willing, while coercing assumes at a bare minimum that the object is negatively predisposed to any suggestion.

And exactly why I called it wordplay. You're using seduction in order to establish that she was either willing or neutral, which is extremely debatable and hasn't been establish at all, without addressing the use of drugs in order to make her that way. You'd have to address if a person in such a state could be deemed able to make such a distinction between actually be willing or unwilling. In fact she had to use a drug could just be justifiably said to be coercion because it was done without the other person knowledge and it having the same negative connotation applied.

[Guardian Enzo]

Where does this "magic" bullshit come from? Even if you discount getting someone drunk or high enough so that they aren't even aware of what's going on as assault (and I don't discount it - it is assault) date rape drugs exist. There are many of them and they aren't "magic" or some kind of PC fantasy, but a medical fact.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Ah! those magic drugs again

I don't know if you understand how drugs work on the brains chemistry and effect peoples judgement or if your just willfully blind to it. You seem to think the drugs have nothing to do with her actions afterwards which just doesn't make sense to me.