US Elections 2008

[Sazelyt]

Biden did a lot of puffs, or so it seemed. Since they didn't show his face a lot while Palin was talking, I assumed he was about to laugh or just feeling like slapping her (with his words of course)...In short, I think he held back a lot, in various ways. He also didn't seem as aggressive as usual. He was more like in a teaching mode for the most part of the night (and of course almost always targeting McCain, trying to teach Palin some unknowns about McCain). And, I think Palin tried to get away from the actual discussion (be it economy or something else) a lot of times (always going back to energy) so that even an ignorant watcher could have noticed the lack of knowledge there about her. McCain wasn't this apparent in his escapes.

Originally Posted by james0246

And Ifill...either she was on too many pain pills, or she was broken by the recent "controversy", but she did not moderate to the best of her abilities.

There was not much she could have done. If she would have made Palin cry, her career based on objectiveness might have seen a downward turn, even it may not have been true. But, didn't similar things happen even in the previoud debate? Thanks to the aggressiveness of Obama and McCain (to find an opening on the other's answer, or past), the moderator's duty was somehow reduced to initiate the discussion instead of pursuing the points. Here, Palin's lack of aggressiveness made the moderator (and the format) look bad.

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Biden did a lot of puffs, or so it seemed. Since they didn't show his face a lot while Palin was talking, I assumed he was about to laugh or just feeling like slapping her (with his words of course)...In short, I think he held back a lot, in various ways. He also didn't seem as aggressive as usual. He was more like in a teaching mode for the most part of the night (and of course almost always targeting McCain, trying to teach Palin some unknowns about McCain). And, I think Palin tried to get away from the actual discussion (be it economy or something else) a lot of times (always going back to energy) so that even an ignorant watcher could have noticed the lack of knowledge there about her. McCain wasn't this apparent in his escapes.

Ignorance doesn't have to be seen, it can be guessed. That is why they can't play with "escapes' really.

[cors8]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Biden did a lot of puffs, or so it seemed. Since they didn't show his face a lot while Palin was talking, I assumed he was about to laugh or just feeling like slapping her (with his words of course)...In short, I think he held back a lot, in various ways. He also didn't seem as aggressive as usual. He was more like in a teaching mode for the most part of the night (and of course almost always targeting McCain, trying to teach Palin some unknowns about McCain). And, I think Palin tried to get away from the actual discussion (be it economy or something else) a lot of times (always going back to energy) so that even an ignorant watcher could have noticed the lack of knowledge there about her. McCain wasn't this apparent in his escapes.

Well Biden had to deal with the perception that he would be "sexist" or "bullying" Palin. Unfortunately, that resonates among people and would hurt more than just holding back a bit.

[Sassarai]

Originally Posted by cors8

What "gotcha" questions? I'd like a list of "gotcha" questions the press has asked Palin that they wouldn't normally ask of a candidate.

Obama never cried about "Gotcha" questions when he was interviewed by O'rielly. Katie asked Biden some of the same questions she asked Palin and I don't see him crying about it. He didnt even bring Obama in to help him out too like how Palin brought McCain She can't expect every interviewer to be like Sean Hannity and just hump her leg. Reporters got to do their jobs.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by cors8

Well Biden had to deal with the perception that he would be "sexist" or "bullying" Palin. Unfortunately, that resonates among people and would hurt more than just holding back a bit.

And, I think Obama campaign made this decision, to not be aggressive, as they got some clue about her from the Couric interview. Even if Biden wouldn't have taken that road and be aggressive, the best that Palin would have done is to make it seem like even. I don't think anyone thought she had any chance to win in the debate, and that was a fact made clear during the debate.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Solace

Ifil: Sigh. Politics hurt this. I couldn't really call this a debate so much as a hour and a half interview.

I'm not sure if it was politics or the campaigns back when they were negotiating about the debates. Her handlers were fighting as much as possible to remove the "debate" portion of the debate and leave it with as much Q&A as possible.
(I didn't actually see the debate to see how this ended as.)

Originally Posted by Sassarai

John McCain will get it done because he's a Maverick! WHY? Because he's a Maverick. John McCain has a Maverick reputation because he's a Maverick.

Jeez it's like Rudy Gigglianis "blah blah blah 9/11"

McCain is (Noun) (Verb) POW.

[mg1942]

I saw Biden almost cracking a tear. What was that all about? I was at the gym during the debate.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by mg1942

I saw Biden almost cracking a tear. What was that all about? I was at the gym during the debate.

I'll just give you the specific transcript (since the section is pretty self-explanatory), and highlight where Biden became emotional:

Spoiler for Transcript:

IFILL: Let's talk conventional wisdom for a moment. The conventional wisdom, Governor Palin with you, is that your Achilles heel is that you lack experience. Your conventional wisdom against you is that your Achilles heel is that you lack discipline, Senator Biden. What id it really for you, Governor Palin? What is it really for you, Senator Biden? Start with you, governor.

PALIN: My experience as an executive will be put to good use as a mayor and business owner and oil and gas regulator and then as governor of a huge state, a huge energy producing state that is accounting for much progress towards getting our nation energy independence and that's extremely important.

But it wasn't just that experience tapped into, it was my connection to the heartland of America. Being a mom, one very concerned about a son in the war, about a special needs child, about kids heading off to college, how are we going to pay those tuition bills? About times and Todd and our marriage in our past where we didn't have health insurance and we know what other Americans are going through as they sit around the kitchen table and try to figure out how are they going to pay out-of-pocket for health care? We've been there also so that connection was important.

But even more important is that world view that I share with John McCain. That world view that says that America is a nation of exceptionalism. And we are to be that shining city on a hill, as President Reagan so beautifully said, that we are a beacon of hope and that we are unapologetic here. We are not perfect as a nation. But together, we represent a perfect ideal. And that is democracy and tolerance and freedom and equal rights. Those things that we stand for that can be put to good use as a force for good in this world.

John McCain and I share that. You combine all that with being a team with the only track record of making a really, a difference in where we've been and reforming, that's a good team, it's a good ticket.

IFILL: Senator?

BIDEN: You're very kind suggesting my only Achilles Heel is my lack of discipline.

BIDEN: Others talk about my excessive passion. I'm not going to change. I have 35 years in public office. People can judge who I am. I haven't changed in that time.

And, by the way, a record of change -- I will place my record and Barack's record against John McCain's or anyone else in terms of fundamental accomplishments. Wrote the crime bill, put 100,000 cops on the street, wrote the Violence Against Women Act, which John McCain voted against both of them, was the catalyst to change the circumstance in Bosnia, led by President Clinton, obviously.

Look, I understand what it's like to be a single parent. When my wife and daughter died and my two sons were gravely injured, I understand what it's like as a parent to wonder what it's like if your kid's going to make it.

I understand what it's like to sit around the kitchen table with a father who says, "I've got to leave, champ, because there's no jobs here. I got to head down to Wilmington. And when we get enough money, honey, we'll bring you down."

I understand what it's like. I'm much better off than almost all Americans now. I get a good salary with the United States Senate. I live in a beautiful house that's my total investment that I have. So I -- I am much better off now.

But the notion that somehow, because I'm a man, I don't know what it's like to raise two kids alone, I don't know what it's like to have a child you're not sure is going to -- is going to make it -- I understand.

I understand, as well as, with all due respect, the governor or anybody else, what it's like for those people sitting around that kitchen table. And guess what? They're looking for help. They're looking for help. They're not looking for more of the same.

This point (in fact Biden's entire answer) was considered by almost everyone (on Fox, CNN, or MSNBC) as the highlight of the night, and it was the point that won over many independent voters (at least from the CNN viewer response indicators, which received the highest numbers for this answer).

Just to make a brief comment on those CNN indicators, it seems no one in Ohio (amongst the 33 democrats, republicans and independents) really responded to Palin's "folksy" mannerisms, since the indicators generally showed a disfavourable rating whenever she resorted to speaking in such a manner.

[mg1942]

Palin mentioned 2 words you will never hear from a democrat, Personal Responsibility. Those scored high with the polls.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Phantom-Takaya

From a small business owner stand-point, there was one thing that struck me from Biden. He kept referring to what he saw as "rich." $250,000. $250,000 isn't hard to reach for a small business. It concerns me greatly since the moment I reach that or more, I'll be taxed greatly as a business, even when I pay myself no more than $2,000/mo due to overhead. My only hope would be that my tax write-offs will soften the blow.

Apparently, it is hard to reach for a small business if only the top 2-3% make that.

The facts: The liberal Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, citing 2003 data from the non-partisan Tax Policy Center, said in a report that 436,000 tax filers with small-business income — 1.3% of the 32.8 million filers with small-business income — were subject to the top income tax rate. Another Tax Policy Center analysis concluded that "roughly 97% of small businesses would not be affected at all by increases in the top two tax rates."

Len Burman, who runs the Tax Policy Center, said in an interview Thursday: "The vast majority of small businesses would not be affected by the Obama tax increases" because they are not in the top two tax brackets. He added, "Most small business owners have relatively modest incomes."

Source

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by mg1942

Palin mentioned 2 words you will never hear from a democrat, Personal Responsibility. Those scored high with the polls.

Actually, Obama gave an entire SPEECH about that on father's day, directed squarely at the black community and especially at black deadbeat fathers. (Which he was even somewhat criticized for in some circles).

Excerpts: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/...ca/fathers.php

The address was not Obama's first foray into the issue. On the campaign trail, Obama has frequently returned to the topic of parenting and personal responsibility, particularly for low-income black families. Speaking in Texas in February, Obama told a mostly black audience to take responsibility for the education and nutrition of their children, and he lectured them for feeding children "cold Popeyes," a reference to a chain of fried-chicken restaurants, for breakfast.

In fact, as far as I'm concerned Obama has spoken about personal responsibility more often than McCain has. Doing an extremely unscientific google poll, we get these results:
search: Obama "personal responsibility" = 490,000 hits
search: McCain "personal responsibility" = 397,000 hits

[Green²]

Originally Posted by mg1942

Palin mentioned 2 words you will never hear from a democrat, Personal Responsibility. Those scored high with the polls.

Originally Posted by Palin

Let's do what our parents told us before we probably even got that first credit card. Don't live outside of our means. We need to make sure that as individuals we're taking personal responsibility through all of this. It's not the American peoples fault that the economy is hurting like it is, but we have an opportunity to learn a heck of a lot of good lessons through this and say never again will we be taken advantage of.

Blame Canada. Damned you Canada!!!!!!1

[Vexx]

Its become an American tradition in the last two decades to Blame Anyone Else in some form of delusional self-denial.

However --- its not everyone. Some mitigating statistical analysis that goes beyond the 'average debt = $10K' soundbite.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...rts/P74808.asp

Its overly optimistic .. .but then its MSNBC -- and their interests are corporate and status quo.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by james0246

This is, more or less, how I felt as well. Palin was great when it came to image, but there was next to nothing substantial about her (which is ironic considering that initial concerns for Obama was that he had no substance, but has, mostly, shown that meme to be false). Biden, on the other hand, had some very good points (hopefully the "Maverick" meme will die now that Biden has easily shown how his Maverick status can be shown to be bad) but lacked the depth needed to crush McCain/Palin (I had similar complaint concerning Obama last week). And Ifill...either she was on too many pain pills, or she was broken by the recent "controversy", but she did not moderate to the best of her abilities.

Well it is what it is, Palin in a push equals what amounts to a victory…I mean she totally lost the debate on substance and content, but she won the debate on the fact her head didn’t explode on national television…It’s indeed a sad state when just not being horrible basically gives you a “push”, but welcome to the USA where a Disney movie hockey-mom politician can win with her folksy hometown attitude, to hell with answering the questions...I mean she’s somebody “Just like you…” (As if I’ve ever seen any Sarah Palin’s growing up in the inner-city of New Orleans, Louisiana where I live), but I guess the same can be true about Biden (accept for the fact he actually sounds like someone I could trust with this country to a good extent and he’s not exactly selling his personality as all or nothing)…As for Gwen Ifill, her lack of any kind of seriousness or moderation (as it were), let Palin off of the hook and did the country at large a decent enuff disservice…But again this moment in time is just a snapshot and I doubt it will have any significant bearing, however just one day ago the entire election seemed to be doubt if Palin had just been as bad as she had been in every moment since her convention (A challenge from Ifill indeed would have revealed more, but we’ll never know)…

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by mg1942

Palin mentioned 2 words you will never hear from a democrat, Personal Responsibility.

What? That statement doesn't seem to have any basis in reality.

"An Unscripted Barack Obama Preaches Personal Responsibility In Texas"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mayhil...m_b_89127.html

Cincinatti Crowd applauds Obama's call for personal responsibility
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politic...bama15.article

"Barack Obama is telling Black people they need to take more “responsibility” for their lives."
http://revcom.us/a/138/CD_personal_r...bility-en.html

"And Democrats, we must also admit that fulfilling America's promise will require more than just money. It will require a renewed sense of responsibility from each of us to recover what John F. Kennedy called our "intellectual and moral strength." Yes, government must lead on energy independence, but each of us must do our part to make our homes and businesses more efficient. Yes, we must provide more ladders to success for young men who fall into lives of crime and despair. But we must also admit that programs alone can't replace parents; that government can't turn off the television and make a child do her homework; that fathers must take more responsibility for providing the love and guidance their children need." - Barack Obama, Democratic National Convention Pres. nomination acceptance speech

[Theowne]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Actually, Obama gave an entire SPEECH about that on father's day, directed squarely at the black community and especially at black deadbeat fathers. (Which he was even somewhat criticized for in some circles).

Excerpts: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/...ca/fathers.php

Don't pester us with facts. It is much more comfortable to drone on and on about how Democrats are the root of all evil.

American politics sometimes reminds me of children fighting with each other, covering their ears during an argument screaming "naa naa, can't hear you".

[Sugetsu]

Too funny to pass out... Why is this woman still popular for the V.P ticket?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLhVGDy-ZXc

[Sassarai]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Why is this woman still popular for the V.P ticket?

Only in America, only in America.

Spoiler for nsfw:

Republicans need to remove their republican hats and wear their American hats. Seriously this lady cant be one heartbeat away from the POTUS.



lol oh man funny stuff


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnFTatCpNO8

[cors8]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_131655.html

Of course it's annoying when you can't respond with talking points.

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by cors8

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_131655.html

Of course it's annoying when you can't respond with talking points.

It's more like not not being able to respond "correctly", as for Palin, it is redundant, no matter which way it is asked or phrased.