Nanoha Manga Discussion

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Well, yes, but this also had the unintended sideffect of showing that without those powers, there's absolutely no way Cypha would have won. Signum was outclassing her throughout the entire fight, and was only taken by surprise at the end.

As an attempt to show the new villains are total badasses, it falls short.

Well, IMO I think the fight was more to showcase how badass the new villains are with their weapons, respectively, instead of how badass they are on their own. Because as you said, Cypha is pretty much equal to Signum, if not being completely outclassed by her during the whole fight. So I think the point was to show that if it had continued as it was, Signum would have won; Cypha just pulled out her cheat code and took control of the fight. I honestly get the impression that the Hucks aren't that strong without their weapons.

Of course, I could be wrong, we haven't fully seen what they can do yet.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Well, yes, but this also had the unintended sideffect of showing that without those powers, there's absolutely no way Cypha would have won. Signum was outclassing her throughout the entire fight, and was only taken by surprise at the end.

As an attempt to show the new villains are total badasses, it falls short.

Don't forget that Signum was Unisoned during that portion of the fight.

And even with Unison, Laevantine was still cracked after cutting off Cypha's arm.

[Akiyoshi]

To be fair Cypha at first made the mistake of taking Signum lightly, once she reaches her face in a split second Cypha went "Oh Crap!" and start fighting accordingly, then they seem to be on a similar scale before Signum unisons with Agito and proceed to curbstomp Cypha, then she shows regenration capabilities that would make Wolverine envious and proceed to activate her "lolwin" button. On Cypha's behalf at least i think Tsuzuki thinks the same as me and feels that is too soon for her to be defeated(wich tranquilizes me because if Cypha gets easily defeated right after her battle with Signum the latter will be get on the danger of suffer from "Badass Decay") she gets completely owned by Divide Zero but so are everyone else so that doesen't count. At first i was dreaming of a rematch with Signum but probably will be Fate the one who handle her so my hopes are not really high right now.

Still hoping for Cypha to live up to her villany and don't go the befreinding route(she's like Tre turned up to eleven).

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Don't forget that Signum was Unisoned during that portion of the fight.

And even with Unison, Laevantine was still cracked after cutting off Cypha's arm.

Wich is a good trade, a cracked sword in exchange for your enemy's limb that subsequently leads to it's defeat, it's worth the price, too bad Cypha is the lost daughter of Wolverine and Claire Bennet ...you can't get more "God Mode Sue" than that ...oh wait *remembers about Mr. Divide Zero* you can xD.

[00-Raiser]

I wish people would stop referring to Cypha's Eclipse abilities as "cheat codes" or "lolwin button." Using the abilities you have at your disposal isn't cheating. If that were the case everytime Nanoha fights some one weaker than her she's 'cheating' by using her powers. Is the only way to not cheat lowering your level to that of your opponent's? That's just stupid and nobody does it. Did Signum look at Cypha and go "My opponent doesn't have a unison device, so I won't use Agito either"? Hell no. The only people who whine and demand 'fair fights' are usually the weaklings that know they'd lose otherwise.

It's certainly not a 'lolwin' button either, as the recent chapter showed. Cypha, Veyron, and Deville all fought with their powers active, but did Fate, Subaru, and Erio instantly lose? No.

So yeah, you're not doing anything for Signum's reputation by saying "Signum only lost because Cypha cheated!!!"

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

It's certainly not a 'lolwin' button either, as the recent chapter showed. Cypha, Veyron, and Deville all fought with their powers active, but did Fate, Subaru, and Erio instantly lose? No.

So yeah, you're not doing anything for Signum's reputation by saying "Signum only lost because Cypha cheated!!!"

I'll gladly want to add the fact that they're armed with plot armor(aka the AEC Equipement and, in Bardiche's case, the 5th Gen upgrade) that prevents them from being pwned instantly(and even with said armor they have a hard time fighting those guys, wich like i already sayed, is a good thing). I think Signum's defeat supposedly means that anyones withouth said copuntermeasures is dead meat against the Huckebein. about Signum's reputation it only rest to remeber the days when she was awesome.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I'll gladly want to add the fact that they're armed with plot armor(aka the AEC Equipement and, in Bardiche's case, the 5th Gen upgrade) that prevents them from being pwned instantly(and even with said armor they have a hard time fighting those guys, wich like i already sayed, is a good thing). I think Signum's defeat supposedly means that anyones withouth said copuntermeasures is dead meat against the Huckebein. about Signum's reputation it only rest to remeber the days when she was awesome.

You misunderstand what plot armor is...

The wiki which shall not be named states...

Note that this is specifically about cases where it's suggested (by way of Informed Ability, generally) that something should happen that would be very bad for the hero - but it tends to fall short as soon as he gets involved, for no given reason besides luck.

Novice viewers will often confuse plot armor with more justified survival explanations. If Superman survives a bullet to the eye, that's just him using his powers. Superman is invincible. If Indiana Jones survives a nuclear explosion by hiding in a refrigerator, that's plot armor.

[prescience]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

about Signum's reputation it only rest to remeber the days when she was awesome.

So Signum's reputation as a skilled mage is destroyed, due to her losing a single battle against a vastly better-equipped opponent? I'm not following your train of thought here...

[Koveras Alvane]

It seems that some people are simply irrational about anything bad happening to their favorite character, while others are unwilling to put themselves in the former's shoes and treat them with understanding. There are some things a fan just can't get over, and Signum's defeat is one such thing for her fans (yours truly included). Any attempt to reason with them/us is futile by definition until (and unless) the author somehow manages to redeem himself in their/our eyes. So yeah, I'm not happy about Signum losing to some smug bitch. So why raise the topic again and again?

PS: Oh, and we Signum fans shouldn't read the Claymore manga. Force ch.7 pales in comparison to Claymore ch.107.

[prescience]

I understand being unhappy about Signum getting her ass kicked; I'm not exactly over the moon about it myself. What I'm not getting is that Aki seems to think that Signum is somehow no longer an awesome character, because of this loss. That seems quite unfair; it feels like a (completely unwarranted) attack on her as a character...

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

You misunderstand what plot armor is...

The wiki which shall not be named states...

Superman's shoot in the eye is a very bad example(Sam Raimi fails boilogy forever xDU), but i take your point, still lays the fact that they're equiped with new artifacts that let them survive(apparently barely) the Huckies's game breaker powers(i'm interested in how Tsuzusuki plans to deal with the crazy regeneration powers and adamantium skin, sure, the heroes can attack them now but they still can regenerate and be hard as freaking titanium). Erio looks like a suitable victim but Subaru and Fate are more or less well protected by plot.

Originally Posted by prescience

So Signum's reputation as a skilled mage is destroyed, due to her losing a single battle against a vastly better-equipped opponent? I'm not following your train of thought here...

It's not completely destroyed ...yet, but has received a ver huge blow that's for sure. If she losed but retreats or was saved by someone before being made into a meat skewer by Cypha(like by Fate for example, in fact, that would be a much better way to worf Signum, stablish the Huckebein as threatening and show the 5th Gen upgrade, all at the same time! xD) things will be better accepted, she went from utterly awesome to utterly pwned on the course of a single battle, and that is a little bit depressing.

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

It seems that some people are simply irrational about anything bad happening to their favorite character, while others are unwilling to put themselves in the former's shoes and treat them with understanding. There are some things a fan just can't get over, and Signum's defeat is one such thing for her fans (yours truly included). Any attempt to reason with them/us is futile by definition until (and unless) the author somehow manages to redeem himself in their/our eyes. So yeah, I'm not happy about Signum losing to some smug bitch. So why raise the topic again and again?

Actually i've been recently asked on that on my TV Tropes account xDU. I made the promise to not whine over this without provocation, Evil Rick and Comartemis raise the topic and i responded accordingly, maybe the day when i can finally read Ch. 007 again is not so distant, but for now you're right about me, i'm very sensible about the topic and maybe it's better to talk of something else.

Originally Posted by prescience

I understand being unhappy about Signum getting her ass kicked; I'm not exactly over the moon about it myself. What I'm not getting is that Aki seems to think that Signum is somehow no longer an awesome character, because of this loss. That seems quite unfair; it feels like a (completely unwarranted) attack on her as a character...

Maybe it's my way to cope with this xDU, you know "reverse psychology", i'm trying to not have high expectations on Signum to avoid being more dissapointed than i'm now.

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

PS: Oh, and we Signum fans shouldn't read the Claymore manga. Force ch.7 pales in comparison to Claymore ch.107.

Man! i'm also a fan of Claymore(i didn't read the manga but the anime was great!) what happen, don't say that Claire or someone cool gets "lolpwned" even worse than Signum T-T(i don't remeber much but Galatea was one of my favourites xD).

[Nanya01]

If you want a comparison...

Compare Signum vs Cypha in Force to Fate vs Signum in A's.

Signum might not have had the "smug smirk" on her face when fighting Fate, but her entire attitude screamed "I'm superior to you."

ESPECIALLY when she decided to go "Laevantine, my armor" and tanked those attacks from Fate.

Really, Signum's been asking for this since A's.

And, no, I don't dislike Signum, I'm just pointing out that her doing that back in A's REALLY bothered me.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Just saw the latest chapter of Vivid and I can say these.

Caro gets revenge on Lulu for calling her chibi.

Erio that damn pervert. He always wanted to do that to Fate didn't he?

There's a reason why Nanoha is called the White Devil of the TSAB.

In the end double KO.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

There's a reason why Nanoha is called the White Devil of the TSAB.

I think Teana is getting pretty White Devil-ish herself, meyse she'll get her own nickname in the future xD

[Comartemis]

Spoiler for Remember this?:

Direct hit. From Blaster One Divine Buster and Nanoha's Shooting Star Assault. At point-blank range. And she's "unharmed". Now look me in the eye and tell me she's not a badass.

If Signum doesn't fight Cypha again, it'll be because Cypha's not enough of a challenge. We've already seen that Signum is the superior warrior and that Cypha only won because of her Divider; as soon as Signum gets her AEC equipment, that stops being an advantage and all Cypha can do that Signum can't is regenerate. I foresee the Big Bad appearing somewhere down the line and when Signum goes after him/her, Cypha tries to get in her way and just gets swatted aside.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Well, yes, but this also had the unintended sideffect of showing that without those powers, there's absolutely no way Cypha would have won. Signum was outclassing her throughout the entire fight, and was only taken by surprise at the end.

As an attempt to show the new villains are total badasses, it falls short.

By that logic, the Wolkies were no more badass considering it was their cartridges that let them dominate their first fights. Yes, Cypha won because of her Eclipse abilities. And that's the point. Showing how powerful the Eclipse is against mages.

[al103]

Originally Posted by Keroko

By that logic, the Wolkies were no more badass considering it was their cartridges that let them dominate their first fights. Yes, Cypha won because of her Eclipse abilities. And that's the point. Showing how powerful the Eclipse is against mages.

Most funny thing about this is that searching for blog post about that fights in Aces that were posted at time when it first showed or from people that know nothing about franchise are full of rage about how 'ritters are stupid wanked cheaters that should die.

[Comartemis]

Originally Posted by Keroko

By that logic, the Wolkies were no more badass considering it was their cartridges that let them dominate their first fights. Yes, Cypha won because of her Eclipse abilities. And that's the point. Showing how powerful the Eclipse is against mages.

Bad example. The cartridge system had definite flaws revealed as early as episode 2 (Vita worrying about running out of cartridges, implying that there's a serious drop in performance when a Knight runs out of shells). The Eclipse has no such weaknesses so far as we've seen.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Bad example. The cartridge system had definite flaws revealed as early as episode 2 (Vita worrying about running out of cartridges, implying that there's a serious drop in performance when a Knight runs out of shells). The Eclipse has no such weaknesses so far as we've seen.

Actually, not really...

The point was "without the cartridges, the Wolkies wouldn't have beaten Nanoha and Fate".

Which was mostly confirmed the INSTANT that Nanoha and Fate got their own cartridges...

Course, then we find out, via manga and sound stages that 1: The Wolkies were holding back and 2: Fate got her butt kicked by Signum in every re-match.

Of course, we don't get to SEE those re-matches, so...

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Bad example. The cartridge system had definite flaws revealed as early as episode 2 (Vita worrying about running out of cartridges, implying that there's a serious drop in performance when a Knight runs out of shells). The Eclipse has no such weaknesses so far as we've seen.

That and the fact that the Wolkenritter demonstrate to be awfully strong even AFTER Nanoha and Fate get the cartridge system, thus justifying themselves as legitimately Badass.

On a side note, if Tsuzuki plans on going full mecha with the franchise the next anime can maybe get an opening singed by JAM Project, that would be cosmically awesome beyond the stars(but appareently 7arcs is too fond of Nana Mizuki to ever consider this u_u).

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Bad example. The cartridge system had definite flaws revealed as early as episode 2 (Vita worrying about running out of cartridges, implying that there's a serious drop in performance when a Knight runs out of shells). The Eclipse has no such weaknesses so far as we've seen.

Yeah, and the Eclipse virus totally doesn't have any flaws. Except for becoming a homocidal maniac with an inevitably short lifespan and all.

And while the Wolkies were capable fighters even after Nanoha and Fate got cartridges of their own, suddenly they couldn't curbstomp them anymore either. Which is exactly what happened here. Main cast get weapons that can fight Eclipse, suddenly battles are on equal ground again. It's A's all over again, which ironically might be a complaint on its own. Heck, even Touma going crazy can be paralleled with Hayate going Yami no Sho on everyone. He's even wielding a book when he goes Divide Zero to boot.