2012-07-11, 20:15 | Link #61 | |||||
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I like this sort of ambition on the part of anime writers. Quote:
Mind you, when a writer swings for the fences and misses, that's when you tend to get your big trainwrecks. Quote:
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So I agree with you here as well. Quote:
To me, it would be like saying that for a Hollywood movie to be a masterpiece it needs to have cutting edge and top-notch graphics.
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2012-07-11, 21:50 | Link #62 |
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I know this is not a Madoka discussion thread but hey I believe this is relevant to the subject. I mean hey, if one can simply dismiss Madoka as simply "popular" and doesn't qualify as a masterpiece then I don't know what people are exactly looking for in a masterpiece. It's got tons of awards and garnered so much critical praise. What else are we looking for here? Again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece
"Masterpiece (or chef d'œuvre) in modern usage refers to a creation that has been given much critical praise, especially one that is considered the greatest work of a person's career or to a work of outstanding creativity, skill or workmanship."
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2012-07-11, 22:17 | Link #63 | |||
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He wouldn't be an artist otherwise. If he needs that validation to feel secure, then he's really no more than an attention seeker. That's somewhat immature, if not infantile. Quote:
They do say that artists become famous only after they die... I think we're belabouring the point. Great art is never an accident. All artists worth their salt aim to be great. Whether they will be remembered for posterity, on the other hand, is out of their hands. In the vast majority of cases, a master artist doesn't care much if he is immortalised. He would be very concerned, though, about achieving that one piece that he can be completely proud of before he bites the dust. |
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2012-07-11, 22:24 | Link #64 |
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We are talking about masterpieces. You are talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic
They are different. We don't need 10 years to recognize an exceptionally crafted work.
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2012-07-11, 22:24 | Link #65 | |
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But I disagree with that argument... at least where it actually matters. It's true that Madoka Magica has a very specific target demographic. But when Zac Bertchsy write things like this about an anime, it's doing more than just pleasing otakus. The fact is that Madoka Magica explores a lot of different ideas and themes. In its own distinct way, it explores the human condition, and its poses some pretty universal philosophical questions ("Is there anything truly worth risking your life for?" "Is there anything worth sacrificing for?" "When faced with a dangerous person that seems impossible to negotiate with, should you try a diplomatic route anyway, or should you try to stop that person by force of arms?") When you combine that with the overall quality of the work, I think it comes as close to a masterpiece as any other anime that's aired in the last two or three years. To me, it's a masterpiece. Time will tell if it is an "objective masterpiece" (as Pocari Sweat puts it), but it's certainly looking good so far, imo.
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2012-07-11, 22:33 | Link #67 | |
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Also, one small point about "accident" in the process of creation. Art is not a science. I can't create "art" on demand based on a standard template. I know the techniques of good writing. I have my command of the language to inform me, and my own sense of quality to guide my composition. But is that enough to make me an artist? I don't feel so. Sometimes, I know the words to use, but they just can't seem to come out right, no matter how I try. On other times, the sentences simply flow. I don't know how it works. It's serendipity. It's the joy of discovery. Often, it really is no more than accidental. That's just the way it is. |
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2012-07-11, 23:01 | Link #68 | |
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However I would like to point out that the definition I've presented is not exactly "my definition" of the word. More like it is the very definition of the word...a fact. The problem here is that setting your own definition of the word creates arguments that cannot be resolved because even though we're talking about the same word, in the end, we are arguing about 2 different things.
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2012-07-11, 23:11 | Link #69 | |
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If the winning of multiple awards were the key criteria, why, all the Oscar winners in Hollywood film history would be "masterpieces". Really? I don't think so and neither, I suspect, would many people. It's merely an indication of a lot of contemporary hype. It's only with the passage of time, after the dust has settled, that we can see more clearly if all the adulation was really justified. |
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2012-07-11, 23:49 | Link #70 | ||
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On the subject of awards, I'll simply say that... awards are given out every year. And yes, awards are primarily a popularity contest, especially where "art" is concerned. They see what people are clamoring for, and that factors into their decision (imagine the outcry if they gave awards to something that a lot of people disliked).
So, as was said, the only real factor is time. How does it hold up years later, and against everything else that won a lot of awards? For an interesting illustration of this, check out the rankings on a site like anime-planet.com. Gintama' is listed at #8, while Grave of the Fireflies is listed at #108. And yet, I think most of us would agree Grave of the Fireflies is a masterpiece, while the second season of Gintama wasn't so good (though it had its moments). Thus, popularity is not a good judge. Quote:
But per dictionary definition, it is something done with the utmost skill. And something produced that has visible flaws, isn't something that was done with the utmost skill. Something with flaws can still be good and have meaning, though. Quote:
And if you're going to look for a definition, then the dictionary is the best place to start. Spoilers Spoiler for The plot of the movie "The Sixth Sense" Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-07-12 at 20:33. Reason: Too late, but spoiler tag added... |
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2012-07-12, 00:04 | Link #71 |
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You say that as if it's a bad thing.
If you want to judge something objectively, no matter how you slice it, it's going to be a "popularity contest". Otherwise it's just your own damn opinion, and holds water only to yourself and those who agree. Also if you want to add a layer of objectivity to definition of masterpiece, "test of time" is pretty much an essential element.
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2012-07-12, 01:56 | Link #72 |
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This is off-topic but.........................................YOU JUST SPOILED THAT MOVIE FOR ME!!!!!
Dammit, and I was gonna see it tomorrow too. T_T
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-07-12 at 20:32. Reason: Removed the quote (now under spoiler tags), even if it is indeed, too late. |
2012-07-12, 03:21 | Link #73 | |
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And seriously it's not like said multiple awards Madoka won were MTV awards. Madoka won a lot of prestigeous awards and in multiple categories at that. These awards are far from simply just being popular. And if you're going to question the validity of these prestigeous awards then there would be no way to determine what is a masterpiece anymore. It's not like the ones who gave all these awards to Madoka didn't know how to judge. @Kaijo Sure wikipedia is not the most reliable source of information however that's pretty irrelevant here. It's not like the definition that was provided in the links I've posted is wrong. You can always just google the term and look up the definition and you can pretty much see they all say almost the exact same thing.
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2012-07-13, 16:23 | Link #74 | |
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If a message manages to light the fires of the people it was intended to reach, does it not mean it was a complete success? Therefore, there a number of works where I appreciate for what they do, even though it wasn't meant for me, so I personally don't care for it. Because the nature of entertainment is at least partially an emotional experience, plus people of different times and cultures have different opinions and mindsets, it can't be quantified so easily, except we can approximate in the reaction it generated. You can't appreciate Citizen Kane fully, unless you understand the context behind it, for example. Therefore, I would go with masterpiece to the degree of how it affected the medium overall. Mobile Suit Gundam has got to be one of the groundbreakers when it comes to anime I'd say. Finally, it's my personal opinion that if you try to please everyone, you will please no one.
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2012-07-16, 19:40 | Link #76 | |
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Also School Days is the greatest masterpiece in the anime world, topic over |
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2012-07-17, 10:08 | Link #77 | |
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I always try to remember that when my head grows too big. |
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2012-07-17, 12:57 | Link #80 |
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Naruto is quite entertaining though have some flaws, Bleach already had its final episode while the Manga is ongoing. Bleach had a lot of fillers, but nevertheless it was entertaining. While both are undoubtedly popular as Manga and anime, I wouldn't consider them masterpieces, close but not there. One piece is closer to a masterpiece than Bleach and Naruto, but it is not a masterpiece yet.
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