[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[TeeHee]

Originally Posted by LuckySovietStar

I was more interested on your take on "what repressed feelings\fears\goals\etc is Beatrice supposed to represents in Shannon's character?", to be frank. Like, that Natsuhi's delusions were in reality her desire for Kinzo's approval, etc.
Likely, what might all the LEAVE GEORGE DON'T TAKE HIS RING HE WILL TERRORIZE YOU IN BEDROOM deal symbolize? I know, this is kinda like trying to make sense out from magical crack, buuut...I always was thinking that this is purpose of supernatural scenes, not just our and Ryu's mindfu(ck/n).
Also, what, Beato forcing Kanon to lick her shoes is Shannon forcing him to help her agenda? If so, this is kinda sad, because poor Kanon get betrayed in the end...

If you want a more proper answer, you will need to give me a day or two to review. I think you might be taking some of these too literally, but I might be able to generate some theories nonetheless. (I'll keep a note book open from now on.)

I will say that I am seeing more and more signs that Shannon could be the mastermind culprit, though I am not 100% convinced. I can hypothesize that perhaps Shannon had a chance to study the occult either as a student of Kinzo or independently (hence the magic circles). After all, she always had access to the entire library of Kinzo's stuff in some form or another. It is also possible that she was in charge of making Kinzo's body disappear... Retrieving Kinzo's ring and writing Beatrice letters would be too easy for her.

I will also explore the possibility of Jessica as the culprit. To me, it's really a matter of picking a culprit and testing a hypothesis to see how it could possibly work.

Edit: Of course, Shannon would only be able to enter Kinzo's room to access his occult library as long as Kinzo allows it, unless Genji decides to lend him a key. But if Shannon is Kinzo's (secret) student, it would make sense.

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

Honestly I don't believe it either. It's just the only other even slightly plausible theory to explain who could have appeared as Beatrice at the end of Episode 1.


And, I don't things are gonna be that easy regarding Beato. Battler didn't recreate the illusion of the witch, he just made up a new human theory. He himself realized that since the crimes were solvable, magic couldn't have been used to commit them.

That doesn't mean he can't build up a new illusion over the course of Episode 6 though.

But thoughout the whole trial, Beatrice was arguing for a human theory that was different than Erika's. It was said that as long as there wasn't one single human truth decided upon, the illusion of the witch still had space to exist.

As for episode 1. Is it really that impossible for it to be someone other than Shannon? I think people fall into the trap of assuming "Beatrice" is always the same person... The "Beatrice" that shows up at the end doesn't necessarily have to be the culprit, it could be anyone who is still alive and isn't one of the cousins.

Why does it have to be a woman? From what I remember of the ending of episode 1, the person they found was never really described. Just, Maria ran up to someone in the darkness, calling them Beatrice. Then "Beatrice" laughed loudly.

So for starters, I don't think Kanon is out of the question, and he is widely speculated to have survived his twilight.

Personally, I think it was Eva or Hideyoshi. I just posted my ideas for episode 1 in a post in the general spoilers/speculations thread which includes details for how that could work. (I've only read up to episode 5, no new spoilers here.)

But to summarize... Honestly it's always confused me why people are so eager to point to someone in the first twilight as the culprit. It's a sketchy claim in multiple ways.

1. "Unidentified corpses"... If you ask me, Shannon's corpse fits this more than anyone. It's not like Battler couldn't see the corpse at all, he just couldn't see her face.

2. The brand-new lock on the shed door, with the only key given to Natsuhi. It's not an insurmountable obstacle, but still, the red truth is not the only thing in the way of a first twilight victim coming back and killing someone else.

3. The idea that Shannon was actually alive puts a heavy importance on Battler's viewpoint. But, is there even a "detective" yet in the first game? I don't think this is a trivial question.

Personally, I try to avoid anything that requires "interpretation" of the red truth. If I know the answer, I should be able to go back and look at things with no objections, and Shannon surviving fails that test for me.

In comparison, I think there is a simpler and more viable candidate for a fake in the second twilight. Some people (seemingly including Battler) don't even look in the room, and even the people who looked in the room would not have been able to see Hideyoshi even if they went inside, so his death especially is fairly easily falsified. Furthermore, someone drew a magic circle on the door during the short time it took Kanon and Kumasawa to go grab a wire cutter. In other words, before anyone entered the room, someone who knew there were "corpses" inside went up and painted a magic circle on the door during a tiny time-frame in which they could have been discovered by multiple people. And if they were real murders and the painter was the culprit, getting caught drawing a magic circle on the door would have been basically saying "I killed them" after people found what was inside.

So, the magic circle seems like a big clue that the second twilight was faked, at least in part.

A couple other questions for the assumption that Shannon = Beatrice: If that's the case, who is the person who wrote in Maria's diary, wrote the bottled messages, and had the cash to send out the PIN envelopes before the conference started (and how did they know Ange wouldn't be there?) Also, who was responsible for episode 3 and 4?

[TeeHee]

I have a new blue truth, and I need help evaluating it. It has nothing to do with Shannon. And sorry if someone else came up with this first.

Ready?

Spoiler for Blue truth:

It seems possible that Rudolf the Womanizer had encountered Beatrice - who bore a SON. And if he did, he really needed to keep his mouth shut.

(I will hereafter refer to this SON in capital letters.)

"This is the world of 1967."
1986 - 1967 = 19

At the time, Rosa, the youngest in the family, was 15 if I recall. I bet that Rudolf was well older than that... old enough to get into trouble like that.

This SON, who was initially given to Natsuhi, would have been guaranteed to inherit the family's name. She rejected him, so the BOY's death was staged - though he was kept alive in secret.

Then the actual Beatrice dies in an accident.

Kinzo, who realized that his most valued GRANDSON needed a family, got word that Rudolf womanized Asumu. They were forced into marriage... but their child actually died in a miscarriage (as did Kyrie's son/daughter, coincidentally). Kinzo secretly made them accept his GRANDSON and name him Battler, the original name they actually intended for their actual son.

Kinzo's dying wish, for whatever reason, is for his favorite GRANDSON (Battler) to receive the Gold, but only if he passes the trial by fire.

Anyways, this seems possible, but I need to evaluate this some more.

[Arkwright]

That's an interesting concept to explain the 19-years baby. Although it might be stretching things a bit too much to say that both Asumu's child and Kyrie's child died at birth... Also, I have a hard time imagining how and why Rudolf got to where Beatrice was, unless Kinzo arranged it, which seems unlikely.

As far as I can think of offhand, there aren't any hard contradictions, unless you take "Ange is my little sister" inflexibly.

[TeeHee]

Originally Posted by Arkwright

As far as I can think of offhand, there aren't any hard contradictions, unless you take "Ange is my little sister" inflexibly.

Half-sister still counts as a sister in my book, anyways.

Edit: Just as a reminder:

Publicly acknowledged relationships:
Rudolf x Asumu = Battler
Rudolf x Kyrie = Ange

My theory:
Rudolf x (real) Beatrice = Battler

[Kaiba]

Personally, I think it was Eva or Hideyoshi. I just posted my ideas for episode 1 in a post in the general spoilers/speculations thread which includes details for how that could work. (I've only read up to episode 5, no new spoilers here.)

Possibly, given how you described the second twilight, it's possible, but I personally dislike suspecting either one. Eva is way too obvious of a choice after all of Episode 3, and I really don't going like after her, and there's just nothing in the case of Hideyoshi. There is absolutely no evidence for and against him, and we still know pretty much nothing about him. There should really be some evidence or hints, which while they are there in the case of Shannon, don't exist in his case.

[Knicknevin]

I'l be back later with some more detail, but I looked over your theory Arklight, and it's pretty interesting. I've got a spin of my own for it.

Episode 5 showed us a lot of things; That Eva and Hideyoshi suspected that Kinzo was dead for one. Kyrie had some shady contacts digging up dirt on the family too. The siblings and their spouses, other than Krauss and Natsuhi, met up to plan strategy. And from what happens later, we can see that it's not impossible to stage a 'mass murder' scene and fool the islands guest detective. And, the people that are a part of planning this can keep their mouths shut so the detective doesn't catch on.

I think the same plan in Ep5 was what happened in Ep1 as well. In the original plan, the cousins were going to be kept out of the loop to provide testimony about everyones 'deaths'. But in Ep5 it got altered to make Erika the witness and the cousins were brought in to the loop.

Assuming the plan to fake the family's deaths and make off the money is right, I think Eva and Kyrie have their own agendas though.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Arkwright

But to summarize... Honestly it's always confused me why people are so eager to point to someone in the first twilight as the culprit. It's a sketchy claim in multiple ways.

1. "Unidentified corpses"... If you ask me, Shannon's corpse fits this more than anyone. It's not like Battler couldn't see the corpse at all, he just couldn't see her face.

2. The brand-new lock on the shed door, with the only key given to Natsuhi. It's not an insurmountable obstacle, but still, the red truth is not the only thing in the way of a first twilight victim coming back and killing someone else.

3. The idea that Shannon was actually alive puts a heavy importance on Battler's viewpoint. But, is there even a "detective" yet in the first game? I don't think this is a trivial question.

1. George asked Hideyoshi if there were only five victims, so Shannon's corpse apparently wasn't visible at all from where the cousins were standing.

2. As we saw in Episode 4, breaking the lock is not the only way to get through the shutter. Shannon could have used a tool from inside the shed to cut through the shutter herself.

3. Battler was the detective in the first four games.

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

3. Battler was the detective in the first four games.

Piece Battler was not granted detective authority on the level of Erika in those games. He only took the mere position of anti-fantasy in the meta-world.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Piece Battler was not granted detective authority on the level of Erika in those games. He only took the mere position of anti-fantasy in the meta-world.

I'm not really sure about that... although he doesn't ABUSE the authority like Erika does, people have a tendency to listen to him and his theories.

Additionally, Battler might not use the detective's authority simply because he doesn't know that it exists.

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I'm not really sure about that... although he doesn't ABUSE the authority like Erika does, people have a tendency to listen to him and his theories.

Additionally, Battler might not use the detective's authority simply because he doesn't know that it exists.

Well while I won't outright deny that he didn't have some of it, there are a few factors that lead me to believe he was not granted the detective's authority.

1. As shown with Erika, a game piece that is granted the detective's authority, when they are speaking a theory everyone who is accompanying them at the time ALWAYS has complete fixated attention on them. Noone can resist and rarely anyone ever disagrees. This didn't always happen with piece Battler.

2. You are granted the ability to use the blue truth outside the game board. Battler didn't gain this ability until partway through EP4 and even then it was meta-Battler and not piece Battler

And lastly I believe Erika even said something similar herself in the game in red: The detective cannot be killed in the game. Piece Battler died in all four of the first games in the final twilight.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Well while I won't outright deny that he didn't have some of it, there are a few factors that lead me to believe he was not granted the detective's authority.

1. As shown with Erika, a game piece that is granted the detective's authority, when they are speaking a theory everyone who is accompanying them at the time ALWAYS has complete fixated attention on them. Noone can resist and rarely anyone ever disagrees. This didn't always happen with piece Battler.

2. You are granted the ability to use the blue truth outside the game board. Battler didn't gain this ability until partway through EP4 and even then it was meta-Battler and not piece Battler

And lastly I believe Erika even said something similar herself in the game in red: The detective cannot be killed in the game. Piece Battler died in all four of the first games in the final twilight.

1. I can't think of any scene where a theory Battler proposed was ignored. Do you have an example? (This was never stated to be part of the detective's authority though.)

2. Blue truth isn't something granted by the detective role. Beatrice, Ange, and Bernkastel have all used it too, and Battler used it in Episode 5 even though he explicitly wasn't the detective in that game.

3. Sorry, I'm pretty sure no such red truth exists.

There is some evidence that the detective's authority only works if you assert it. When Hideyoshi's body was found, Erika should have been able to search the whole crime scene, but Battler was able to prevent her from searching the closet.

[Knicknevin]

The detective cannot be the culprit is what you're probably thinking of.

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

1. I can't think of any scene where a theory Battler proposed was ignored. Do you have an example? (This was never stated to be part of the detective's privilege though.)

2. Blue truth isn't something granted by the detective role. Beatrice, Ange, and Bernkastel have all used it too, and Battler used it in Episode 5 even though he explicitly wasn't the detective in that game.

3. Sorry, I'm pretty sure no such red truth exists.

1. While it wasn't stated by any of the characters that it was an asset it was definetly stated in the scenes when it happened. I have a hazy memory when it comes to details so I could've sworn didn't happen to Battler sometimes but then again he is a pretty smart and respected fella. Ah well, I'm to lazy to go back and check so I'll give you that one

2. Ah right, piece Battler used it in the text battle with Dlanor. My mistake.

3. Once again I have a hazy memory for details so yeah I was probably thinking of the Detective can't be the culprit. I had doubts but I though I'd give it a go anyhow. I'll give you this one too.

Hnnn, there's no concrete evidence whether he had detective's authority or not in EP1-4.

Based on your argument it certainly is possible for him to have the detective's authority, however the possiblity of him not having it is still there as well.

[Knicknevin]

You're thinking about this backwards. The 'killings' were all an act. Erika can't have any kind of 'authority' in the real world. The times when she exerts her 'detective's rights' the family is just stringing her along as a part of their act, resisting just enough that she doesn't catch on when they back down.

[cheesie]

Originally Posted by zorahk

-snip-

I hope it won't trouble you too much to keep Episode 6 theories and assumptions OUT of the Episode 5 thread because I didn't know about the likelihoods of the Shannon theory, nor do I need to know about it, thank you.

[Amegashita]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

1. While it wasn't stated by any of the characters that it was an asset it was definetly stated in the scenes when it happened. I have a hazy memory when it comes to details so I could've sworn didn't happen to Battler sometimes but then again he is a pretty smart and respected fella. Ah well, I'm to lazy to go back and check so I'll give you that one

2. Ah right, piece Battler used it in the text battle with Dlanor. My mistake.

3. Once again I have a hazy memory for details so yeah I was probably thinking of the Detective can't be the culprit. I had doubts but I though I'd give it a go anyhow. I'll give you this one too.

Hnnn, there's no concrete evidence whether he had detective's authority or not in EP1-4.

Based on your argument it certainly is possible for him to have the detective's authority, however the possiblity of him not having it is still there as well.

In the episode 4 Tea Party, before Battler and Beatrice face off. Battler goes around the entire mansion area exploring and examining the dead bodies of all his family members and forming theories on how they possibly were killed, processing what Kyrie and Jessica had told them before they died.

Erika said in Episode 5 that the Detective is allowed to examine the vicitims dead bodies because it's in her authority. In episode 4 that's exactly what Battler did, proof that he was the detective in that game, and I say he was the detective for the earlier games also... since it wouldn't make since to all of a sudden make him the detective without him knowing it.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

Erika can't have any kind of 'authority' in the real world.

The gameboard is the real world?

[moldy_tomato]

Originally Posted by Amegashita

In the episode 4 Tea Party, before Battler and Beatrice face off. Battler goes around the entire mansion area exploring and examining the dead bodies of all his family members and forming theories on how they possibly were killed, processing what Kyrie and Jessica had told them before they died.

Erika said in Episode 5 that the Detective is allowed to examine the vicitims dead bodies because it's in her authority. In episode 4 that's exactly what Battler did, proof that he was the detective in that game, and I say he was the detective for the earlier games also... since it wouldn't make since to all of a sudden make him the detective without him knowing it.

But in episode 2, Rosa stopped him when he was examining the dead bodies (Shannon) in Natsuhi's room.

[Amegashita]

Battler did the same thing to Erika, the only difference is that Erika used her right as the detective to while Battler did not.