[Jap-Manga] Claymore Statistics, Power Levels, and Theories

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Dunno about her ego, but like others, I don't think Clare sees Miria as her leader. And why should she? She never swore or agreed to it. Clare has only two Goals 1) Find Raki 2) Kill Priscilla, and seven years is long enough. Maybe it is Miria that needs the face Slam here. First she thinks she can make Clare fight her to allow her to leave. Then once Clare proves that she is capable enough, Miria is willing to drop everyone else and follow Clare, because she sees Clare as the most important component in her plans. All the other Claymores are Miria fan girls, so they follow, and so Miria is back under the assumption that she is some kinda boss to Clare, and even sends people to babysit her. Clare is sympathetic to Miria cause, but she has her own goals that are more important to her.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Talking about Clare and Miria, I was watching the Anime again and it had something that made me check the manga, a bit that confirms the theory about Yoki quality.

"quality of yoma energy... size.. Simply everything. Just how many of us will actually be able to survive?" -- Miria, Ch. 56, Pg. 21.

So that confirms that:

yoki_strength = Yoki_qualityYoki_size

This is very interesting, because if you pay attention, some characters are able to sense Yoki_size but not Yoki_quality, and that is how Clare is underestimated. For instance, Rigaldo picks out the leaders by their Yoki_size but is not able to see with his mind's eye their Yoki_quality because he does not pick out Clare as a strong one, and furthermore he calls her a weakling -- small fry. Now much has been made about Miata sensing that both Miria and Clare were far stronger than the rest of the ghosts, but she isn't the first person to say this about the two.

"! The remaining two are strong, much stronger than the other lights, so strong, but yet so fickle too." -- Priscilla, Ch. 61, Pg. 29.

That means that Priscilla, unlike Rigaldo, is able to see Yoki_quality besides just Yoki_size. In fact, Miria can distinguish between the two too, since she made the initial statement about the awakened beings yoki_quality and had mentioned the concept way back in the Slasher's arc. That is why she thought maybe the strongest of them was standing in front of her when she met Clare (at first I thought she meant how Clare held herself). I don't think Miria is as good at reading quality like Priscilla is; she's not really known to be one of the sensors, after all, but she can see it. I think seeing the quality of the yoki is a rarer ability than being able to see the size or amount there is. Most Claymores, maybe even great sensor types, can only see the size of someone's yoki, not it's quality. That is unless any of you don't think it was Clare Priscilla was talking about, but then all the single digit leaders had been killed, and who was left was considered to be a small fry by Rigaldo. So, there you have it.

Anyway, I apologize in advance if all this was already said before; I was not going to go through a hundred pages to see.

[Ryuken]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Lol, if Clare was the sole survivor of the battle of Pieta she would have had to awaken or abandon her friends, neither of which is a choice for the Main character; unless you want the "Bad Ending."

Clare being the main character saves her quite often, but that doesn't mean we should assume she would survive anything, that would be ignoring the story and just inserting (bad) plot devices to explain everything away.

The biggest reason anyone survived the battle of the north was Miria's plan. If everything went the same except without the pill plan, everyone would be dead.
If the pill plan existed but Clare wasn't; there would still probably be survivors (probably not as many, but I said that already)
If Miria's plan didn't exist they all die anyway, even with Clare around.

@Fenrir, let me as you something, lets say that Clare was not able to save Miria, but still the story would continue now wouldn't it? I didn't want Jean or Flora to die but they did, still the story continues.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Likelihood of a sad ending would be foreseeable in that case, one with all the ghosts dying.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Out of the people you listed Clare was only responsible for saving 2 of them, not counting herself. Rigaldo was only targeting the leaders and was completely uninterested in killing everyone else. The only reason he was going to kill Helen was because she was carrying the unconscious Miria around.

The people who survived were determined purely by chance after a certain point. Yuma, Cynthia, Tabitha, and Deneve would have likely still survived either way.

Oooh... okay i'll try to be more analytic.

Possible causal link between survival rates of claymores post removal of Ab army leadership structure due to intervention of character referenced as 'Clare'

15 of 17 casualties = 88.325% (pre rigardo casualties)
1 of 6 casualites = 16.667% (post rigardo casualties)

Now i know it could be because they are arguably the strongest but that apperently shouldn't make a difference.

Undine "strong ones and weak ones both have a chance to survive"

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Why even bring this point up? This doesn't even have anything to do with what I am talking about. I already said (three times now) that Miria only survived because of Clare's intervention. Your completely ignoring the point I am making here. Which is, in case you missed it, that none of them would have survived without Miria's plan.

Why? To begin with...
I was also replying with awakened statements in mind. However you also said at the end of your post.

"I don't think this is just because of her former rank or current strength, but rather because she was responsible for saving their lives in the first place and because of her leadership abilities."

which was a lot less colored way of saying this...
"The biggest reason anyone survived the battle of the north was Miria's plan."

Allow me to say i agree with what i thought you implied with the first statement, but not what i was led to believe after reading the second. Which you now reiterate with the contentious...(definitive statement?)

"that none of them would have survived without Miria's plan"

Undine's earlier statement could imply that without Miria's plan there's the chance that some of the stronger one's 'might' survive. I agreed with the 'not just' part of the first statement, which is what led me to the 'nothing's just a just' statement.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Yes, but you guys make it sound like they are blindly clinging to the old ranking system (determined by strength) instead of following their own system; which basically revolves around following Miria's plan (for 7 years infact) to survive. More recently they left the North due to Clare's decision to leave, and Miria's decision to go with her. (Thus avoiding a group split)

Perhaps i was too emphatic, if that was the case i apologise. They do indeed follow their own system which just so happens to be the old one. The indication of a pecking order is still intact down to the old number system with the anomaly of Clare who blatently isn't #47 or even Ghost#7. As i said it's relevent because the ghosts Helen and Deneve inparticularly are discussing which has the most right to lead through being the most powerful. Flora took Clare to task for apparently shirking responsibility.

Flora "whether they want it or not, those with power command those below themselves...that is the responsibility that befalls them"

Miria wasn't concerned with a group split, she allowed for that unlikely event when she gave the others their Hobson's choice. But to not be too harsh, does this benefit more towards Miria's plans or Clare's? That is to say Clare's plan was always to move alone, a)find Raki and b)kill Priscilla or die trying. Miria's plans on the other hand are a)eradicate the org b)make the org suffer, and she *needs* others for that plan, others she was prepared to leave behind, whilst she followed Clare.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

How is this a problem? Your assuming that Clare has ever listened to anyone's orders in the first place. Your acting like Clare is leading some sort of rebellion against a Tyrannical Leader, when it really is just Clare acting as usual and everyone going through to motions.

I didn't intend to make Miria sound Tyrannical, but if you will allow me some doubt, as i said it's a problem. The problem is basically an incompatibility of systems.

System A. Ghosts pecking order based on old ranking system #1 Miria #2 Cynthia #3 Deneve #4 Helen 5#Tabitha 6# Yuma and 7# Clare
System B. Clare does what she likes, because no-ones really gonna stop her, she killed an awakened #2 after all.

The others have got a choice to respond to each situation by either doing as they please much as Clare does, or by supporting whatever it is Clare is aiming at, or by following conflicting orders/wishes based on Miria's plans. The resulting chaos as you can see is far from Miria's plans. Don't encounter the soldiers or Ab's...
Clare/Cynthia/Yuma 3 soldiers, 3 mib's, 1 Ab
Helen/Deneve 4 soldiers,1 A0, 1ab, 8-11 AE's and counting

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Of course Clare was the reason everyone went South, I never once denied that, but that doesn't change that everyone still sees Miria as the leader figure (bar Clare, but she hasn't respected authority since the beginning of this Manga), even rebellious people like Clare/Helen/Deneve still respect Miria as a leader, even when they choose to disregard her orders.

erm disregarding orders is a sign of disrespect in a sense, but no i do agree with you see above.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Miria allowed the rest of the Ghosts to do as they wish, while Clare is, and always will be most likely, beyond anyone's ability to order around; the rest of the Ghosts follow her lead.

The safest decision considering the circumstances. Much better then letting Clare wander off on her own anyway. What would you recommend Miria do to try to ensure Clare stays out of trouble, much less Helen and Deneve?

I'll put these two together because they are pretty much about the same issue, i could easily be wrong but i don't think Miria is accompanying Clare for her wellbeing/concern for Clare's welfare.

Miria- "i will go south with her and together with her i will exact revenge for our comrades"
Cynthia- "Clare's the type that likes to act alone, so be careful she doesn't leave your side even once...were Miria's orders"

Miria is how to say a little too concerned with Clare staying out of trouble. I couldn't imagine anyway too keep her out of trouble, as it's not really in her interest to babysit Clare for life out of a feeling of responsibilty, but rather a expenditure of resources to ensure a superweapon doesn't wander off on it's own.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Your acting like I said there was no leadership order in the Ghosts at all, but I simply stated that they aren't following the Organization's ranking system, they are following their own system. Just because the people involved previously held those ranks doesn't mean they are still focused upon them.

So examples of orders passed from high ranking to lower ranking members in the exact same manner as the old system then would be an indication of focus surely?

Cynthias' statement above

Helen "i don't care about Miria's orders or yours Deneve"

Deneve " i made Yuma accompany her, to keep an eye on her just in case"
Clare "hmmphh Miria or Deneve are always behind this"

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

"Leash" is still an appropriate term here because any system were you follow someone's leads effectively "leashes" you to their decisions and orders.

When Miria declared they could go take care of some unfinished business as long as they travel in small groups, this was effectively a loosening of that "leash." or responsibility if you prefer, to the group.

She even gave them the option of not coming back if they wished, if the Ghosts didn't see Miria as a leader there would be no point in saying any of this, the Ghosts would just do what they wanted anyway. (Much like Clare already does)

Emphasis on the last sentence...
The whole situation can be in effect viewed as the exact opposite of what you state. And since what i'm gonna say is unconditionally harsh and coloured i'll use coloured font.

Miria again provides an example of Hobson's choice to the others, in a situation that yet again leaves little choice, the first by proposing abandonment in the frozen north, the second after telling them about the org creating yoma and the nature of the outside war. She in effect shackles Clare's movements by ordering yes ordering her second in command and the weakest member to accompany Clare in the hope that Clare will find no situation dangerous enough to get them killed. And won't be able to shake her 'companions' either.

Helen"not only cynthia but even uma, that way if things get dangerous Clare won't be able to run wild as she wants to"

And yet it's blatent about when they are gonna move against the org despite Miria saying she'd do it on her own...

Helen "i don't want to be on standby in this town while waiting for Clare to return"

Miria also threatens Clare "if you can't accept that i'll have you stay here" interesting how she waits until there in a city Clare doesn't want destroyed before she says that.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Clare is different from the other Ghosts in that while she considers Miria a friend and sympathizes with her cause, she doesn't see her as her leader and does not suffer from Miria fangirlism. Clare made the choice long ago to choose Raki over being a soldier, and she has never agreed to follow anyone since, so she is not bound or obligated to do so. Pretty much, she owes Miria nothing, and is not obligated to stay with her. Seven years have gone by and it is much overdue that Clare finds her family as in Raki, and pursue her own goals. There is something Miria sees in Clare that almost nobody else can see. For some reason, Clare is the single most important component in Miria's strategy to topple the org. Given Claymore power scales this may make sense, since it does seem that Clare and Miria have become so strong that it suggests that they are probably #1's. But yeah, Miria is trying to put a leash on Clare, someone who never agreed to follow her, and while Miria said that she understands that Clare has her own goal she must accomplish, she has setup roadblocks that would stop Clare from accomplishing goal #2 of Kill Priscilla, because going after Prisicilla would likely result in the death of those following that don't have a bone to pick with the Awakened being. Already, Miria has overstepped herself and is proving herself to be a troublesome friend. Clare is in the right here. 1) She never agreed to conscription. 2) She put her quest to kill Priscilla and postponed her search for Raki to save some fellow warriors, which ended up getting her into a mess, though it did provide a lead on Raki. 3) She goes north and along with Rubel's plans because that is where Rubel says Raki. 4) She doesn't want to get others involved with her trouble, like Jean who is following her around now.5) She fights the war in the north for the same reason she went to Riful's, not because she considers herself a soldier anymore, but because those are her comrades and she is unwilling to turn her back on them. 6) Clare who has never been conscripted into Miria's army gets delayed big time from her two most important objectives. 7) When she decides to go, Miria tries to force her to stay with a fight whose Results didn't matter to Clare anyway; she still would've left. 8) Miria all the sudden decides to tag along with Clare, something which Clare probably doesn't like. 9) Everyone decides to come and all the sudden things aren't as Miria said they would be, about her pursuing her own goals; no all the sudden, we're back to Miria's goals of destroying the org, which is something Clare is sympathetic with but which is something that is a distant third on her priority list. 10) Clare tries to leave to find Raki; Miria makes it sound like they are all free to go and if they really want to, to live their own lives, yet she assigns people to keep Clare out of trouble, hindering her from getting into dangerous situations, making it more difficult to find Raki, making it near impossible to confront Priscilla without getting anybody killed.

And Clare is the one who is labeled troublesome, when in reality it is some busybody who is being troublesome to Clare. Clare not having agreed to conscription is perfectly in the right here; she is being hassled by her self-appointed commander that she never asked to have.

[Ryuken]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Clare is different from the other Ghosts in that while she considers Miria a friend and sympathizes with her cause, she doesn't see her as her leader and does not suffer from Miria fangirlism. Clare made the choice long ago to choose Raki over being a soldier, and she has never agreed to follow anyone since, so she is not bound or obligated to do so. Pretty much, she owes Miria nothing, and is not obligated to stay with her. Seven years have gone by and it is much overdue that Clare finds her family as in Raki, and pursue her own goals. There is something Miria sees in Clare that almost nobody else can see. For some reason, Clare is the single most important component in Miria's strategy to topple the org. Given Claymore power scales this may make sense, since it does seem that Clare and Miria have become so strong that it suggests that they are probably #1's. But yeah, Miria is trying to put a leash on Clare, someone who never agreed to follow her, and while Miria said that she understands that Clare has her own goal she must accomplish, she has setup roadblocks that would stop Clare from accomplishing goal #2 of Kill Priscilla, because going after Prisicilla would likely result in the death of those following that don't have a bone to pick with the Awakened being. Already, Miria has overstepped herself and is proving herself to be a troublesome friend. Clare is in the right here. 1) She never agreed to conscription. 2) She put her quest to kill Priscilla and postponed her search for Raki to save some fellow warriors, which ended up getting her into a mess, though it did provide a lead on Raki. 3) She goes north and along with Rubel's plans because that is where Rubel says Raki. 4) She doesn't want to get others involved with her trouble, like Jean who is following her around now.5) She fights the war in the north for the same reason she went to Riful's, not because she considers herself a soldier anymore, but because those are her comrades and she is unwilling to turn her back on them. 6) Clare who has never been conscripted into Miria's army gets delayed big time from her two most important objectives. 7) When she decides to go, Miria tries to force her to stay with a fight whose Results didn't matter to Clare anyway; she still would've left. 8) Miria all the sudden decides to tag along with Clare, something which Clare probably doesn't like. 9) Everyone decides to come and all the sudden things aren't as Miria said they would be, about her pursuing her own goals; no all the sudden, we're back to Miria's goals of destroying the org, which is something Clare is sympathetic with but which is something that is a distant third on her priority list. 10) Clare tries to leave to find Raki; Miria makes it sound like they are all free to go and if they really want to, to live their own lives, yet she assigns people to keep Clare out of trouble, hindering her from getting into dangerous situations, making it more difficult to find Raki, making it near impossible to confront Priscilla without getting anybody killed.

And Clare is the one who is labeled troublesome, when in reality it is some busybody who is being troublesome to Clare. Clare not having agreed to conscription is perfectly in the right here; she is being hassled by her self-appointed commander that she never asked to have.

Pretty much agree with what you say @G.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Talking about Clare and Miria, I was watching the Anime again and it had something that made me check the manga, a bit that confirms the theory about Yoki quality.

"quality of yoma energy... size.. Simply everything. Just how many of us will actually be able to survive?" -- Miria, Ch. 56, Pg. 21.

So that confirms that:

yoki_strength = Yoki_qualityYoki_size

This is very interesting, because if you pay attention, some characters are able to sense Yoki_size but not Yoki_quality, and that is how Clare is underestimated. For instance, Rigaldo picks out the leaders by their Yoki_size but is not able to see with his mind's eye their Yoki_quality because he does not pick out Clare as a strong one, and furthermore he calls her a weakling -- small fry. Now much has been made about Miata sensing that both Miria and Clare were far stronger than the rest of the ghosts, but she isn't the first person to say this about the two.

"! The remaining two are strong, much stronger than the other lights, so strong, but yet so fickle too." -- Priscilla, Ch. 61, Pg. 29.

That means that Priscilla, unlike Rigaldo, is able to see Yoki_quality besides just Yoki_size. In fact, Miria can distinguish between the two too, since she made the initial statement about the awakened beings yoki_quality and had mentioned the concept way back in the Slasher's arc. That is why she thought maybe the strongest of them was standing in front of her when she met Clare (at first I thought she meant how Clare held herself). I don't think Miria is as good at reading quality like Priscilla is; she's not really known to be one of the sensors, after all, but she can see it. I think seeing the quality of the yoki is a rarer ability than being able to see the size or amount there is. Most Claymores, maybe even great sensor types, can only see the size of someone's yoki, not it's quality. That is unless any of you don't think it was Clare Priscilla was talking about, but then all the single digit leaders had been killed, and who was left was considered to be a small fry by Rigaldo. So, there you have it.

Anyway, I apologize in advance if all this was already said before; I was not going to go through a hundred pages to see.

It could be that clares yoki increased after the partial awakening of limbs against rigardo. Galatea seems to measure with yoki size too. Who knows what priscilla sensed. Size or quality? Normally it should be only the quality because miria said that the quality increases after half awakening.

I don't know how much miria knows about clare's past. I doubt that she knows something about teresa but i wonder if yuma and cynthia would questioning her about what rubel meant when he said "when you brought me teresa's head". It is very strange that clare in all those seven years never taught to anyone about her past and her intentions but that's how she is.
IMO soon or later clare will come to the conclusion that not priscilla killed teresa but the organisation and so she will change her main target.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

That is an excellent point about Galatea not being able to see Yoki_quality. So you can have someone who is one of the greatest sensors of all time not be able to see something someone who isn't known for her sensory capabilities -- Miria -- can see. This probably doesn't apply to Clare, since she her yoki_quality probably didn't get refined until her half awakening. But if the org. used Galatea to judge someone yoki_strength by reading the size of their yoki, then that analysis could be inaccurate since she can't see the quality. The quality of Clare's yoki also seems to have grown by a greater factor than the normal claymore's does upon half awakening.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Anyway, so far we know that every Claymore can sense Yoki_size

We also know that Miata is able to sense a Claymore's true strength by some means other than yoki sensing.

So far Priscilla and Miria are the only two confirmed beings that can sense Yoki_quality

[Sleepy Speculator]

I don't think Miria was reading quality, i'd be more inclined to attribute that to Galatea *if* anyone was just talking about that. Miria said it 'felt' as if the strongest was standing before her. I attribute that to random sixth sense the offensive types *may* have.

I think all the claymores read yoki quantity and yoki quality, and tend to group the two together to give the strength/power of a claymore. Helen isn't entirely surprised by the mention of yoki quality, and Clare asks because she's a sensing type that senses a difference in her own yoki, i don't know if she can sense her own quantity/size but that itself is probably noticeable through it's use, (like stamina). Though to be fair for Clare her quality jump was probably huge given that she's not a normal hybrid.

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Nope, Miria is one of two proven characters that can sense Yoki quality. I only found out about this because the Anime made me check the Manga. But Miria very specifically states when the second wave of awakened beings come to attack the town that both their Yoki quality and Size were greater than the first three that they had fought. So Miria is confirmed to be able to sense other beings Yoki quality. Now in the Slasher arc, when nobody seemed surprised that Miria mentioned yoki quality, if you put that in context with everything else, only suggests that the others are able to read/feel their own Yoki quality. Galatea when she spied on the fab 4 called Clare's yoki tiny, and Rigaldo thought she was weak, but Priscilla when reading Clare's yoki saw it as one of the two strongest ones there. BTW, both Miata and Priscilla seem to suggest that Clare and Miria are about at the same level, because they don't say something like: Two stronger than the rest, but one more spectacular than the other; there really is never anything said about one being that much more stronger than the other.

So modifying what I said, using something Sleepy brought up.

All Claymores are able to sense Yoki Size, and All claymores are able to somewhat sense their own Yoki Quality, but it is rare for a Claymore to sense the Yoki Quality of another being. Also further going on this point, if a Claymore's Yoki Quality doesn't regularly change, or if it only gradually changes, then they might not notice it. This maybe supported by Yuma being surprised at how much stronger she has grown; that her yoki quality only gradually increased in the seven years.

[irvinethearcher]

I don't know what priscilla sensed. It was after the partial limb awakening. This could mean that clare now has the same amount of yoki as miria and that priscilla sensed.
IMO miria saw clare the first time in that city. She had no idea who clare was and therefore she was unbiased against her. Perhaps she had a short moment of clar(e)ity in which she could watch beyond that layer of weakness from clare and saw only for a short moment teresa in her.
But i doubt that she ever felt it again. We don't know what it was but IMO miria can not sense someone always in that way. It was a onetime thing.
From Raciella and priscilla we know that yoki can be inside of a claymore/AB highly compressed and dormant. Withstanding even depth scans if the scanning claymore is not very skilled. Even tabitha who lived 7 years with clare felt anything despite knowing that something must be wrong with clare. How could a number 47 partial awaken only arms and limbs and tear an awakened number 2 to shreds within seconds? I think everyone of the 6 ghosts knows by now that clare is special but noone had the guts to ask her why.
I hope yuma and cynthia will now ask her about teresa.

[Fenrir_valindri]

As much as I agree with some of the stuff you said Gangsta, I do think your off the mark when saying it is none of Miria's business what Clare does.

First of all, Clare is still one of the people Miria feels she is responsible for keeping safe. Whether Clare truly sees her as a leader not is almost irrelevant at this point. I believe Miria is just doing her best to make sure Clare doesn't get herself killed off.

All the Ghosts seems aware that Clare might go off and go get herself neck-deep into trouble. Searching for Raki is fine but we all know that isn't the only thing Clare plans on doing.

and as much as Clare helps Miria's plan, it really doesn't feel like Miria isn't going to go through on trying to tackle the organization without her, so I think all this talk about her forcing Clare to help her is more paranoia/conspiracy talk.

Hell, if anything Clare should be grateful to Miria (and I feel like she is, as much as they have a love/hate relationship).
Clare's strength grew exponentially over the past 7 years, as did the other members of the Ghost. Miria does her best to keep them all safe and people seem to think she is the bad guy for doing it. Clare's goals are that much closer to reality due to the time she spent in the North, it isn't like all those years were for nothing.

I can understand people want Miria to just let Clare do what she wants, but Clare puts herself at risk constantly, even if she has her reasons. Sending people with her to keep her out of trouble is about the best thing one can do to ensure she stays out of (the worst kind) of trouble.

Friends don't let friends get themselves killed after all.

-----

From a view completely opposing yours, Clare is truly the selfish one here; she is searching for a single person that is important to her and desires revenge against a single individual, one that could probably tear her arms off and beat her to death with them.
She chooses to pursue her personal vendetta over taking down the Organization; which is responsible for basically everything that made her life that much more terrible;
Teresa's death? ordered by the Organization.
Yoma that killed her parents? created by Organization
Priscilla? ditto.
Death of her fellow warriors and friends in Pieta? sacrificial pawns of the Organization used to roadblock one of the Organizations bigger screw-ups so they could have enough time to create another weapon, which also lead to the creation of Abyssal Eaters (they may be monsters now, but they used to be human).

From how I see it, Clare's goals are far more selfish then Miria's, even if Miria started on her path for revenge with similar reasons. The enemy Miria is tackling is the source of the problem, Clare is just blaming one of their mistakes for hers.
----

Of course all of the above doesn't mean I don't understand where Clare is coming from, I like Clare a great deal, I just dislike it when people act like Miria is the selfish one here.

[irvinethearcher]

@Fenrir
Now that clare is responsible for yuma and cynthia she will probably soon feel the weigth of that responsibility.
A responsibility which miria had for more than seven years.
I think miria did the right thing in letting yuma and cynthia accompany clare.
It is ironic that clare will probably find raki with priscilla. It will probably hard for her but in the end reason will triumph over vengeance.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I'd hope so, but Clare's rage against Priscilla runs deep. It will be interesting to see if reuniting with Raki or her vengeance against Priscilla takes higher priority.

[Awakened]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

I'd hope so, but Clare's rage against Priscilla runs deep. It will be interesting to see if reuniting with Raki or her vengeance against Priscilla takes higher priority.

I don't think Clare has a choice. Raki is one of the main characters, and his goal is to take care of Priscilla, Clare can't take that away from him. She would have to turn her back on Raki to get her revenge.

Yagi painted Miria as one of the greatest leader. One thing a leader have to do is train the troops. Sending Cynthia and Uma with Clare will only force her to take responsibility for them.

Even if Miria is been a good friend, no one can deny that she wants Clare by her side.

I don't see how you could call Clare selfish. Clare has her goals, but she never abandon anyone in other to fulfill her goal. Miria forced herself on Clare, and Clare did not even put up a defense. Notice Miria did not ask Clare if she wanted to fight against the Org. She just said that together with Clare she is going to destroy the Org. I see that as selfish, not the other way around. Before Clare decided to go on her own, the ghost were just playing ninja in the North.

[Tempest35]

At Fenrir-taichou's behest, I have come back. v The #2 of the Miria Brigade has arrived!

Okay, needless ego-boost aside, it's been a while so forgive if my facts are rusty. Besides, Clare and Miria's relationship has always been a crackbaby pet of mine.

Clare naturally draws people to her, despite her loner personality. She wants to be alone but she can't leave people alone, especially if they are in trouble that she can help with. Despite great harm to herself, she'll stick with someone in order to help them, case in point - Teresa. This and all the little things that make up Clare is what draws Miria to her.

Even to this point, there's no indication that Miria knows of Clare's relation to Teresa and Priscilla. All the Ghosts know about Clare and Raki (probably thanks to a drunken Helen ) and Clare might have told them that she has the flesh of another warrior instead of a youma inside her, but as for who that is, she never delved further into her past. Now this is speculation but if Clare had told them that she was hunting Priscilla, Miria and the rest of the Ghosts are not above fighting her to stop her. Clare doesn't want to fight her friends to get a crack at Priscilla but she would fight them if they were stopping her. Priscilla is Clare's problem, no one else's. No one else is that suicidal - even Irene, the one who knew Teresa the best out of anyone besides Clare herself, wouldn't cross swords against Priscilla ever again. This leads to another reason why Clare won't tell the Ghosts about Priscilla - she doesn't want them to help her because of the sheer danger involved.

When Clare announced that the many souls and wishes she bears can't forgive her for the time she spent in the North, Miria probably assumed that she was talking about their fallen comrades as well. Miria didn't want her returning South JUST for the off-chance that her 'boy' might still be alive - it was crazy. Also, Miria wouldn't have said she was going with her if it was just for that.

Clare is the 'fire' to Miria's 'water'. They can both annoy each other with the little everyday things like Clare running off on her own, or Miria assigning one of the others to Clare to keep an eye on her but they both know they have reasons for doing such. Clare knows that she's important to Miria's plans to topple the Org and it has had to cross her mind that while killing Priscilla will make her rest easy at night, destroying the ones who made youma in the first place would make everyone sleep easier at night and prevent any more 'Priscilla' accidents from happening. She has to know at least this much. She doesn't mind taking on the Org, she just won't let it interfere with her personal quest.

Miria's probably hoping on the 'You scratch my back, I scratch yours' deal with Clare. If she lets Clare fullfill her desire, when she comes back to Rabona (with allies in tow), Clare will not be distracted by anything else. Miria doesn't want Clare distracted by Raki or Priscilla - this is why she let her go off. This is also where I draw parallels between Miria/Clare and Guts/Griffith from Berserk - Griffith=Miria and Guts=Clare. During one ep, one of the captains made a remark to Griffith about Guts always making reckless charges into the enemy. Griffith chuckled and said that he could never stop Guts from making those charges, in fact, he plans his battle strageties around Guts' headlong charges. This can be also said of Miria's thoughts of Clare doing similar. Griffith made a huge mistake, however, one that Miria didn't make in letting their best person go off on their own. If Griffith would have let Guts go, Guts would have come back - there's no doubt in my mind. Just like now, Clare will join up with Miria again - not because she has to, but because she wants to.

[Sleepy Speculator]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

As much as I agree with some of the stuff you said Gangsta, I do think your off the mark when saying it is none of Miria's business what Clare does.

First of all, Clare is still one of the people Miria feels she is responsible for keeping safe. Whether Clare truly sees her as a leader not is almost irrelevant at this point. I believe Miria is just doing her best to make sure Clare doesn't get herself killed off.

All the Ghosts seems aware that Clare might go off and go get herself neck-deep into trouble. Searching for Raki is fine but we all know that isn't the only thing Clare plans on doing.

and as much as Clare helps Miria's plan, it really doesn't feel like Miria isn't going to go through on trying to tackle the organization without her, so I think all this talk about her forcing Clare to help her is more paranoia/conspiracy talk.

Hell, if anything Clare should be grateful to Miria (and I feel like she is, as much as they have a love/hate relationship).
Clare's strength grew exponentially over the past 7 years, as did the other members of the Ghost. Miria does her best to keep them all safe and people seem to think she is the bad guy for doing it. Clare's goals are that much closer to reality due to the time she spent in the North, it isn't like all those years were for nothing.

I can understand people want Miria to just let Clare do what she wants, but Clare puts herself at risk constantly, even if she has her reasons. Sending people with her to keep her out of trouble is about the best thing one can do to ensure she stays out of (the worst kind) of trouble.

Friends don't let friends get themselves killed after all.

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From a view completely opposing yours, Clare is truly the selfish one here; she is searching for a single person that is important to her and desires revenge against a single individual, one that could probably tear her arms off and beat her to death with them.
She chooses to pursue her personal vendetta over taking down the Organization; which is responsible for basically everything that made her life that much more terrible;
Teresa's death? ordered by the Organization.
Yoma that killed her parents? created by Organization
Priscilla? ditto.
Death of her fellow warriors and friends in Pieta? sacrificial pawns of the Organization used to roadblock one of the Organizations bigger screw-ups so they could have enough time to create another weapon, which also lead to the creation of Abyssal Eaters (they may be monsters now, but they used to be human).

From how I see it, Clare's goals are far more selfish then Miria's, even if Miria started on her path for revenge with similar reasons. The enemy Miria is tackling is the source of the problem, Clare is just blaming one of their mistakes for hers.
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Of course all of the above doesn't mean I don't understand where Clare is coming from, I like Clare a great deal, I just dislike it when people act like Miria is the selfish one here.

hooray... you see surely that characters aren't just black and white right? But consist of their own motivations.

The only thing i can add is i don't think any of the ghosts know about what sort of experiment Clare is. In the very last chapter it was revealed a line of research came to an end that let them come up with the AE's. And whilst Alicia and Beth were completed, they aren't really that sort of research (though they are an example of humanity less claymores). Clare however was, so the idea of using different donor material than just yomas may be tied in to Clare. The pressure on her secrets is mounting...

[Fenrir_valindri]

I really just drew the "Clare is acting selfish" card to draw a parallel with all this talk about Miria's plans being selfish. My point is that you shouldn't act like Clare is the victim in this scenario when she is pursuing her own goals regardless of Miria's intervention/help.

I agree, no one in Claymore is a black/white character in reality, everyone has elements of both. Jean was probably an exception though, she is missed.

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As for Clare keeping secrets, it will be interesting to find out if Clare actually told anyone about her past or not, unlike the Anime, Clare is rather unwilling to share details about her past. I don't know how the other Ghosts would particularly care about the fact Clare is an experiment, or hold her vendetta against Priscilla against her, but they would probably be even more worried if they realized Clare was wanting to tackle a AB more powerful then the Abyssal Ones.

I have a feeling Miria might know that Clare is an experimental warrior, she did know about Alicia/Beth after all, but then again, she may not since the Organization considered it a failure at the time.