[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[TW25]

He lies about the chain being set on Eva and Hideyoshi's door. As well as the existence of a child between Kinzo and Beatrice, even when it's clear that everyone is going to die in less than an hour.

Genji is clearly the type of person who is loyal to the end. So if Yasu ordered him to kill a few people, I don't think he would refuse.

Think of the reget he must feel also. The child that he saved and brought to Rokkenjima screamed at him about being furniture. He probably blames himself for a lot of Yasu's pain.

[AuraTwilight]

Again, there are rules. Beato's Heart. Rule X, Y, Z. THESE SHOULD BE ABSOLUTE.
The setting and the characters should always be the same.
You are essentially saying that Yasu is trapped in her own fan-fiction of made up stuffs that don't have anything to do with reality.

You are suppose to be able to see the TRUTH from Ep. 1-4. Whodunit, Whydunit, and Howdunit. You are suppose to realize the rules that governed Rokkenjima... but apparently they don't have anything to do with what really happened but are just made up stuffs.

We're not told what these X Y Z rules are, and according to Bernkastel, she can't figure out rule Z because it's always changing like a shifting labyrinth. Even with the X Y Z rules in Higurashi, situations kept ending up being WILDLY different. Again, you're talking out your ass.

In Ep. III she solved the Epitaph and so she did in Ep. VII Tea Party.
They don't solve the Epitath = They die, it's CLEARLY stated.

And yet When the seagulls cry, no one will survive, but you're just fine with assuming all reds are always valid.

Actually, you are. Will solved Ep 1-2 and part of ep 3-4 using Shkanontrice as the culprit.

Of the first four games. Will doesn't investigate any further, and according to Bern, Yasu's not even the culprit in the end; she tries to pass that it's actually Rudolf and Kyrie, which isn't deducible from the first four games at all.

Out of context? I'm sorry, but that's what happened. Kyrie and Rudolf are DEAD. They can't blackmail anyone. That's red text. Eva and Hideyoshi had a fucking huge stake in their head/body. THEY ARE NOT PLAYING DEAD.

Yasu lied about the chain. Yasu faked her death. Yasu shot Natsuhi. Yasu stabbed Jessica in the back. Yasu killed Gohda and George and then shot herself in the head. These are facts. Yasu activated a bomb, "an absolute fate" that would kill everyone in the end if the epitaph was not solved. IT'S STATED, SHE CLEARLY SAID THAT, AND NOT ONLY IN BERN TEA PARTY.

Again, you're not fucking getting it. No one is saying that the Second Twilight onward is faked. You are deliberately misunderstanding what people are actually proposing and beating against a Strawman that NO ONE supports because it's easy for you to argue against; you've yet to give anything that actually attacks the Fake First Twilight theory as actually presented by the people here.

Now calm the fuck down, grow the fuck up, and stop pitching a little bitch fit. I'm getting sick of your attitude.

I wasn't try to compare the two, i was just saying that R07 made us feel sorry for a killer before. Geez, now that i think about it, there is Shion too.

There's a difference between making us feel sorry for a killer and portraying a "killer" as an innocent victim.

@TW25

It's easy to construct a theory for this. Yasu enlists the help of Genji, they go to the dining room and kill Kyrie, Rudolf, Rosa, and Krauss by shooting them in the head. Now Genji can either carry the bodies, or they can load them onto the serving cart and roll them out to the shed.

Aside from not having a motive for Genji, and ignoring that there should only be one killer under Knox and Dine and whatnot, this doesn't work. They can't be killed before placed in the shed because there's not enough blood and there's no signs of the bodies being moved and handled. EP5 also tries to pass off as a certainty that dead bodies don't move, for what it's worth.

Gohda is all alone in the servant's room, so killing him wouldn't be difficult. Once they're at the shed, you just smash their faces and that takes care of the "no bullet wounds" problem. Shannon's body is then prepared and killed as well.

It would still be possible to deduce that a gun was used even if the face was smashed. They cannot be killed and then dragged to the shed, and I wonder what force could gather six people in the shed so they can be murdered. Genji's only one dude. "Wait here, I'll be back with the rest of the victims?"

Kanon is still alive, so Shannon's corpse does not exist.

It's not that impossible that Hideyoshi and everyone would assume that the bloody female servant clothes inside of a shed with five other dead bodies is Shannon's corpse. No one would ever say "Something looks off about that, let me check to make sure there's a person under those clothes" after they've discovered a brutal murder.

Hideyoshi sees a hand with a diamong ring on it, along with half of a face. If you're going to assume he's lying, you might as well say there's nothing there at all; Battler doesn't see it either way. Also, body doubles aren't allowed.

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

We're not told what these X Y Z rules are, and according to Bernkastel, she can't figure out rule Z because it's always changing like a shifting labyrinth. Even with the X Y Z rules in Higurashi, situations kept ending up being WILDLY different. Again, you're talking out your ass.

It's a labyrinth that constantly change its shape because of the roulette. Will the adults find the gold? Will Eva? Or Kyrie? If they don't, then Yasu enters in action, and that can again produce different results. That's why Bernkastel is weak against it.

The other rule is the bomb.

And yet When the seagulls cry, no one will survive, but you're just fine with assuming all reds are always valid.

But it's not even red text. It's a CHARACTER making a CONFESSION about the bomb and why she was going to use it.

Of the first four games. Will doesn't investigate any further, and according to Bern, Yasu's not even the culprit in the end; she tries to pass that it's actually Rudolf and Kyrie, which isn't deducible from the first four games at all.

Of course, she didn't kill on Rokkenjima prime.

Again, you're not fucking getting it. No one is saying that the Second Twilight onward is faked. You are deliberately misunderstanding what people are actually proposing and beating against a Strawman that NO ONE supports because it's easy for you to argue against; you've yet to give anything that actually attacks the Fake First Twilight theory as actually presented by the people here.

I'm sorry, but "Yasu wanted to do a fake first twilight" automatically leads us to "Yasu wanted to make a fake murder mystery". You are essentially saying that she wanted to make a fake first twilight and then she started to kill for real.
Do you realize this doesn't make any sense?

Now calm the fuck down, grow the fuck up, and stop pitching a little bitch fit. I'm getting sick of your attitude.

There's a difference between making us feel sorry for a killer and portraying a "killer" as an innocent victim.

BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T KILL ANYONE ON ROKKENJIMA PRIME.

[Chron]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

It's a labyrinth that constantly change its shape because of the roulette. Will the adults find the gold? Will Eva? Or Kyrie? If they don't, then Yasu enters in action, and that can again produce different results. That's why Bernkastel is weak against it.

The other rule is the bomb.

That's 2 out of 3.

I'm sorry, but "Yasu wanted to do a fake first twilight" automatically leads us to "Yasu wanted to make a fake murder mystery". You are essentially saying that she wanted to make a fake first twilight and then she started to kill for real.
Do you realize this doesn't make any sense?

For the love of god, stop with the straw mans. They're obvious, and frankly painful to read. It seems pretty clear (to me) that you're just being intentionally antagonistic, so stop.

BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T KILL ANYONE ON ROKKENJIMA PRIME.

It's like you're not even listening.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by TW25

Are there any problems with this theory?

Yes.

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
The red applied specifically to this case. It could have been the case that Hideyoshi saw a corpse that wasn't Shannon's and lied about it, but it's impossible for him to have been mistaken.

There is also "no corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story", and although that doesn't apply specifically to this case I think the reds towards the end of episode 5 are meant to give hints for earlier episodes (like "There have been no hints suggesting that someone had disguised themselves as Rosa!" could be read as a hint for ep2).

[AuraTwilight]

Of course, she didn't kill on Rokkenjima prime.

Then why are you insisting that Yasu is the culprit?

I'm sorry, but "Yasu wanted to do a fake first twilight" automatically leads us to "Yasu wanted to make a fake murder mystery". You are essentially saying that she wanted to make a fake first twilight and then she started to kill for real.
Do you realize this doesn't make any sense?

Do you realize this isn't what anyone is arguing? The idea is that before a "Fake Second Twilight" could begin, the culprit hijacked things and used the atmosphere as an opportunity to get away with actual murders, including possibly killing for real the people who were faking.

Do you realize that you are arguing over a viewpoint that only exists in your own mind?

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Then why are you insisting that Yasu is the culprit?

I never said she was Rokkenjima Prime culprit. I only said she was the culprit of the stories. Ep. VII made this very clear.

Anyway, if the adults hadn't hijacked her, she would have followed the roulette.

Do you realize this isn't what anyone is arguing? The idea is that before a "Fake Second Twilight" could begin, the culprit hijacked things and used the atmosphere as an opportunity to get away with actual murders, including possibly killing for real the people who were faking.

Do you realize that you are arguing over a viewpoint that only exists in your own mind?

But it doesn't make sense. Because, after the first twilight Yasu is without a doubt the only culprit. She shot Natsuhi. She stabbed Jessica. She killed Eva and Hideyoshi. She killed Gohda and George and then killed herself. There is no second culprit. She did the things.

[Leafsnail]

There is something odd going on in episode 2 though, since Rosa claims to have been with Shannon the whole time during which the second twilight could've been committed. That fails on two levels with unaided Shkannontrice culprit.

And I still think "a coffin" implies that it was "nailed shut" from the outside. And "Rosa did it" seems like the Earth to Earth solution to me, considering she had all the master keys on her.

[Chron]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

I never said she was Rokkenjima Prime culprit. I only said she was the culprit of the stories. Ep. VII made this very clear.

Anyway, if the adults hadn't hijack her, she would have followed the roulette.




But it doesn't make sense. Because, after the first twilight Yasu is without a doubt the only culprit. She shot Natsuhi. She stabbed Jessica. She killed Eva and Hideyoshi. She killed Gohda and George and then killed herself. There is no second culprit. She did the things.

No, what doesn't make sense is why she set up the fake first Twilight (which we've had hammered into our heads since Chiru first started) and then proceeds to murder the rest of them for real.

The logical assumption is that the individual who orchestrated the fake first twilight and the actual culprit are two different people/persons/entities. The only person revealed to have the capability to orchestrate the fake first twilight/murder game, indeed, the only person who's given a means and motive for doing so is Yasu.

Therefore, by that very logic, Yasu is not the murderer in the games.

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by Chron

No, what doesn't make sense is why she set up the fake first Twilight (which we've had hammered into our heads since Chiru first started) and then proceeds to murder the rest of them for real.

Ep. V Fake First Twilight doesn't have anything to do with Yasu's roulette. The gold was already found.

The logical assumption is that the individual who orchestrated the fake first twilight and the actual culprit are two different people/persons/entities. The only person revealed to have the capability to orchestrate the fake first twilight/murder game, indeed, the only person who's given a means and motive for doing so is Yasu.

Therefore, by that very logic, [I]Yasu is not the murderer in the games.

Then, explain who killed everyone in Ep 1. Please, i'm waiting.


What i'm saying is: there is no Fake First Twilight, Yasu was simply abiding to her roulette.

[Chron]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

Please. Ep. V Fake First Twilight doesn't have anything to do with Yasu's roulette. The gold was already found.

How childish.

Explain Episode 6's fake first twilight before claiming to have debunked the theory in it's entirety. Come, take that assumed wit of yours and put it to some use!

Then, explain who killed everyone in Ep 1. Please, i'm waiting.

Beatrice.

What i'm saying is: there is no Fake First Twilight, Yasu was simply abiding to her roulette.

Explain Episode 6, then. Please, I'm waiting.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

There is something odd going on in episode 2 though, since Rosa claims to have been with Shannon the whole time during which the second twilight could've been committed. That fails on two levels with unaided Shkannontrice culprit.

What's more, it's very cleverly disguised by the dialogue, but did you notice that Rosa knew where to find Kanon and Jessica even though nobody actually told her?

[TW25]

Are there any problems with this theory?

Thanks. I can't believe I didn't see those issues when writing the post.

I'll try to be a bit more careful next time.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Chron

No, what doesn't make sense is why she set up the fake first Twilight (which we've had hammered into our heads since Chiru first started) and then proceeds to murder the rest of them for real.

That actually makes perfect sense.

"I...really can't kill 6 people at once. I mean I'm a frail thing. So guys just wait there and look pretty. Pretend to be dead."

That way the first twilight victims are basically out of the game since they don't leave the crime scene and never know that actual murders are going on. Then, they die with the bomb.

Faking the first twilight does not contradict Yasu culprit in any way.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Sherringford

That way the first twilight victims are basically out of the game since they don't leave the crime scene and never know that actual murders are going on. Then, they die with the bomb.

It's not like they're going to wait in the same place for 12 hours though. For instance, faking the EP1 first twilight works because the "victims" just have to stay in the shed for maybe an hour before being discovered, and then nobody will check on them again.

[Chron]

Originally Posted by Sherringford

That actually makes perfect sense.

"I...really can't kill 6 people at once. I mean I'm a frail thing. So guys just wait there and look pretty. Pretend to be dead."

That way the first twilight victims are basically out of the game since they don't leave the crime scene and never know that actual murders are going on. Then, they die with the bomb.

Faking the first twilight does not contradict Yasu culprit in any way.

On a purely logistical level, yes. But the motivations are pretty different. For the murder game, we have Battler's deductive skills being tested, but for the sake of acknowledging Yasu on rekindling that romance between them. The bomb is the "bad end" that marks her bet. It's a pure gamble.

On the other hand, the actual murders themselves are something done by a shrewd mind that wants to ensure the deaths of the family members. Essentially, hedging their own bets.

Considering how often she talks about "abandoning herself to the roullette", the actual murders simply isn't consistent with the pure gamble Yasu is claiming to let herself be caught up in.

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by Chron

How childish.

Explain Episode 6's fake first twilight before claiming to have debunked the theory in it's entirety. Come, take that assumed wit of yours and put it to some use!

It was already explained in the game. They did if for Erika. Both the pieces and Meta-Battler.

Beatrice.

ahaha.wav
No, seriously. If you are going to claim someone hijacked Yasu fake murder mystery you will have to explain who.

Kinzo is dead.
Krauss is dead. (First Twilight)
Natsuhi is dead. (Shot by.. someone)
Eva is dead. (killed by.. someone. Yasu and Genji lied about the chain)
Hideyoshi is dead (same as Eva)
Rudolf is dead (First Twilight)
Kyrie is dead (First Twilight)
Rosa is dead (First Twilight)
Gohda is dead (First Twilight)
Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo were probably faking it, but they couldn't kill Natsuhi and they follow Yasu orders.

# Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

We are left with: George, Jessica, Battler, Maria and Yasu. I'm going to exclude Jessica, Battler and Maria for obvious reasons. We are left with Yasu and George.

How did George kill everyone? He was with Battler and Jessica the whole time. Why did Yasu lie about the chain? Please, i'm waiting.

[AuraTwilight]

I never said she was Rokkenjima Prime culprit. I only said she was the culprit of the stories. Ep. VII made this very clear.

Anyway, if the adults hadn't hijacked her, she would have followed the roulette.

On this part, we don't disagree, and I didn't say otherwise. So I'm not sure why you're arguing this point. You were implying earlier that Yasu was somehow responsible because the games can't contradict reality or whatever.

But it doesn't make sense. Because, after the first twilight Yasu is without a doubt the only culprit. She shot Natsuhi. She stabbed Jessica. She killed Eva and Hideyoshi. She killed Gohda and George and then killed herself. There is no second culprit. She did the things.

Prove it. Moreover, there is a difference between "Yasu" and "Shannon and/or Kanon" as she defines it. She can put in hints of what happened in the reality (or what she planned at least) and mix it with fictions where she is capable of murder.

Ep. V Fake First Twilight doesn't have anything to do with Yasu's roulette. The gold was already found.

Yasu has other motives for faking the First Twilight other than her roulette. She has nothing to gain from people solving the Epitaph, as stated in red.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

It's not like they're going to wait in the same place for 12 hours though. For instance, faking the EP1 first twilight works because the "victims" just have to stay in the shed for maybe an hour before being discovered, and then nobody will check on them again.

They could go somewhere else. But if Yasu said "you have to stay there so that you won't risk being caught if you disobey me you are out of the running for the heir game" they would obey.

Even if they did go somewhere else, they would stay hidden from everyone else, which would give Yasu the chance to kill them separately instead of taking them all on at once.

Originally Posted by Chron

On a purely logistical level, yes. But the motivations are pretty different. For the murder game, we have Battler's deductive skills being tested, but for the sake of acknowledging Yasu on rekindling that romance between them. The bomb is the "bad end" that marks her bet. It's a pure gamble.

On the other hand, the actual murders themselves are something done by a shrewd mind that wants to ensure the deaths of the family members. Essentially, hedging their own bets.

Considering how often talks about "abandoning herself to the roullette", the actual murders simply isn't consistent with the pure gamble Yasu is claiming to let herself be caught up in.

On the pure motivational level, Yasu wrote those stories. She's so sweet she gives off diabates. She wouldn't want to write her family members as criminals. So she picked herself(or a fictional version based on herself).

The bet is "if George came to look for Shannon's body, he would see it wasn't there, making everyone reveal the murder game."

Hideyoshi knew about the game, as did Eva. They were killed off for real in the second twilight.

No contradictions, unless you REALLY want to claim that Yasu is okay with portraying a family member as a killer.

[Chron]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

It was already explained in the game. They did if for Erika. Both the pieces and Meta-Battler.

And yet Battler came up with that idea only after he discovered the entire truth. In addition, that very game has an individual go around and commit the murders for real. Which is, once again, "the entire truth". Episode 6 is a confession, after all.

ahaha.wav
No, seriously. If you are going to claim someone hijacked Yasu fake murder mystery you will have to explain who.

Kinzo is dead.
Krauss is dead. (First Twilight)
Natsuhi is dead. (Shot by.. someone)
Eva is dead. (killed by.. someone. Yasu and Genji lied about the chain)
Hideyoshi is dead (same as Eva)
Rudolf is dead (First Twilight)
Kyrie is dead (First Twilight)
Rosa is dead (First Twilight)
Gohda is dead (First Twilight)
Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo were probably faking it, but they couldn't kill Natsuhi and they follow Yasu orders.

# Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

We are left with: George, Jessica, Battler, Maria and Yasu. I'm going to exclude Jessica, Battler and Maria for obvious reasons. We are left with Yasu and George.

How did George kill everyone? He was with Battler and Jessica the whole time. Why did Yasu lie about the chain? Please, i'm waiting.

Ho-hum, easy enough.

Battler never confirmed anyone's death. He simply saw a bunch of mutilated corpses. Therefore, if any of them were not corpses, but simply people pretending to be dead, then that red is irrelevant. Boom.

The true culprit of the First game was actually Ushiromiya Krauss. He was dragged into the fake murder game by Yasu, and faked his death with the rest of the shed group. He was in on it, and therefore knew that the other adults would go along with it.

How did he get out of the re-locked shed? Simple. Genji simply came by later with snacks meant for the people posing as corpses since that's what Butlers do, Krauss said he needed to use the restroom or some other excuse, and Genji let him out. From there, he proceeded to commit the other twilights. Eva and Hideyoshi never did lock the chain, Krauss just went in, killed them with his manly fists, and then re-set the chain. Or didn't, Genji probably just assumed that the corpses of Eva and Hideyoshi were also part of the murder game.

Krauss at this time then proceeded to stuff Kinzo's corpse in the boiler. When Kanon came down to investigate, he saw what Krauss was doing, and then prepared to kill him in retaliation. Thinking quickly, Yasu killed the Kanon personality for the act of self-preservation and then played dead on the ground in order to avoid Krauss finishing the job.

Then Kanon got up after Nanjo pronounced him dead. The study thing happens, and then Yasu meets up with Maria and the servants. Yasu realizes that Krauss probably won't harm the cousins because he hasn't targetted them yet, and tells her to play dumb. Krauss then comes in and punches the three old people to death. Yasu confirms, and Krauss leaves a letter informing Natsuhi of the situation, or Yasu does. Either way, natsuhi barrels into the hall, confronts Yasu, and prepares to shoot her. But Yasu kills Natsuhi in self-defense, and Krauss dies off-screen with everyone else from the bomb going off.

Easy.