[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Renall]

We don't know. For instance, did Tohya's Alliance feature the 1998 scenes with Ange? Did they feature the meta-world scenes? Did Message Bottle #2 (assumed to be Turn) feature magic scenes, meta-scenes, both, neither? Did Tohya's Dawn feature herself, Ange, and Featherine?

It's as mysterious as the "real" world in the Umineko setting. Is the 1998 we see the real world or just another fiction? Is there only one future in the "Prime World?" Can the Rokkenjima Incident be prevented, or is it an absolute certainty and we're trying to peek inside the permanently sealed cat box? There's no clear explanation for that, but if it gets answered at all, it'll have to be in ep8.

[cmos]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

The author of the bottle letter killed Rudolph and Kyrie on the first twilight. -> Despite Rudolph and Kyrie dead, the killing in Episode 1 and 2 (bottle letters) continues. -> There is a murderer and a culprit in Episode 1 and 2.

Except these letters were prepared by Beatrice before the actual accident, so it really doesn't matter who's killed there.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by cmos

Except these letters were prepared by Beatrice before the actual accident, so it really doesn't matter who's killed there.

No, of course not. As I explained, it doesn't matter if they live or die, the killing continues.

So, there is something I thought about. I know multiple personality disorder is largely frowned upon, because it is difficult to pull off without being totally ridiculous.
But there is something in the fact that at one point or the other, Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon start fighting against each other. If we really asume Yasu-Shkannontrice, then there is something that came to my mind.

Each personality forms a pair with one of the cousins.
Battler - Yasu
George - Shannon
Jessica - Kanon
Maria - Beatrice

In Episode 4 there is a contest held, who becomes the next familyhead. Who is at the side of the next family head? Beatrice ... so couldn't it be, that similar to the pact of love from Episode 6, this is a battle to decide which personality has to right to exist?
In Episode 2 it is always dress-wearing Beatrice who kills Shannon and Kanon. Thinking back, dress-Beatrice NEVER kills anybody else than Shannon and Kanon, doesn't she? This excludes Zombie-Kinzo of course. And we have Beatrice's very angry reaction at Shannon in Episode 2 who talks about love.

In Episode 7, she also says that there would have been a small incident without Battler. So it could have been the battle of love between George and Jessica, but Battlers return triggered a greater battle. Maybe now Yasutrice also surfaced again and wants to have Battler...

Yes, I agree that my own theory does nowhere nearly explain why the adults were killed at all, nor by whom they were killed. But maybe this is something worth considering in the light of Episode 7

EDIT: It would even fit Kanon's strange insisting, that he CANNOT love Jessica. Maybe he is constructed in a way, that the Kanon personality always takes a step down, so that Shannon can be in love with George. That would also explain why they have to battle in Episode 6, why Shannon still wins, why Kanon vanishes ...

It would also explain Kanon's strange utterance in the basement in Episode 1, that, if Shannon was to die, he would take her place and crush Beatrice's game. Because now he has the right to become happy and be with Jessica.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

And Jessica was informed by about 24 hours notice, which can imply anything, but I suppose Natsuhi would have known only some hours earlier. I would say his presence on the island could have been known about 48 hours befor his arrival.

Then Yasu must be one hell of a writer, or something is seriously off here.

Originally Posted by Renall

We don't know. For instance, did Tohya's Alliance feature the 1998 scenes with Ange? Did they feature the meta-world scenes? Did Message Bottle #2 (assumed to be Turn) feature magic scenes, meta-scenes, both, neither? Did Tohya's Dawn feature herself, Ange, and Featherine?

Well, Ange did ask Featherine not to kill her in such a gruesome way next time. But, all the same, this one was a Meta scene.

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Thinking back, dress-Beatrice NEVER kills anybody else than Shannon and Kanon, doesn't she?

She choked Maria to death in EP3.

Originally Posted by chounokoe

In Episode 7, she also says that there would have been a small incident without Battler. So it could have been the battle of love between George and Jessica, but Battlers return triggered a greater battle. Maybe now Yasutrice also surfaced again and wants to have Battler...

I think a non-DID approach could involve Yasu creating Shannon and Kanon as roles, but at some point George and Jessica fell for them respectively. We know part of Yasu gave up on believing in Battler's promise. So, she probably decided to roll with those 2, as she probably just didn't give a fuck any more. However, Battler happened to show up for the 1986's family conference and Yasu went "off with you losers, here's my man". This works even better if George and/or Jessica have a hand in these incidents.

[musouka]

I love Yasu, so I'm happy to see the conversation has turned in her direction!

Originally Posted by Used Can

I think a non-DID approach could involve Yasu creating Shannon and Kanon as roles, but at some point George and Jessica fell for them respectively. We know part of Yasu gave up on believing in Battler's promise. So, she probably decided to roll with those 2, as she probably just didn't give a fuck any more. However, Battler happened to show up for the 1986's family conference and Yasu went "off with you losers, here's my man". This works even better if George and/or Jessica have a hand in these incidents.

I tend to move away from the DID perspective myself, but I think Yasu's feelings are a little more complex than that.

If you look at the conversation Battler, Jessica, and George had about Maria and her "personalities" in EP1, I think that gives us a pretty big hint as to what is going on with Yasu. Likewise, "Evatrice" is also a very big hint. I don't think any of us would say that Maria and Eva have DID, so I don't think the term fits Yasu either.

When we go through Yasu's story, due to the sprites, it might be sort of hard to keep in mind how old she really is, mentally, when all this is taking place. Claire is initially created when Yasu is probably around seven, eight, or nine years old, which is pretty normal. Think of Claire is to Yasu ("Shannon") as sort of like how MARIA is to Maria. It's not another personality, it's an idealization.

Yasu basically "creates" two different types of characters. She creates imaginary friends, like Gaap and (imo) the first version Shannon. And then she also likes to reinvent her own mental image of herself. This is exactly what Maria does. She creates a powerful "persona" known as MARIA, but she also creates friends like Sakutaro.

In EP6, it's mentioned that people eventually stop talking to and believing in imaginary friends. In Yasu's case, it's more like she mapped those two "friends" on to herself because she had reached their level. Remember, in the Claire scene, Yasu doesn't just become "Claire-Beatrice", she ALSO becomes "Shannon", usurping both the roles that used to be held by her "friends." This means she becomes capable of the "clever tricks" she used to assign to "Beatrice" and comes into her own "worth as a maid" she used to assign to "Shannon".

Taken as one person, we have a young girl that can now finally do her job with relative ease when compared to before, but who also likes to play pranks on people. Yasu's story still has a lot of magic weaved into it. It makes perfect sense to me that we're not seeing a "real" story of an underage maid trying to make her life beautiful by pretending to be other people when she works, but instead actually see visual representations of what's going on.

I think this also holds later in the story when it comes to love. If you look back in EP6, to the scene where Beatrice receives Battler's love, we see Yasu once again "shaping" a "role". Other people have mentioned that scene resembles the creation of a character. Imagine, if you will, a heartbroken Yasu in her room. We know she has some skill in drawing (well, compared to Maria), so she's sitting there drawing the person that is most worthy to hold Battler's affections. Drawing the blonde hair. Drawing the blue eyes. Imbuing this character with the rough and tumble personality that would suit Battler.

And then, can we assume, this "character", like "Beatrice" and "Shannon" before them, also becomes, subconsciously, something to strive towards like they were?

But the person that Yasu can become is limitless, right? There's no one path to happiness. Perhaps, Yasu will find a quiet sort of happiness with George. George seems interested, why not pursue that option? And, well, Jessica is sort of attractive, even if Yasu doesn't really want to admit it. Well, it might be best to close that avenue down...but, you can't clamp down on interest entirely, right?

So what we end up with is a girl that tends to change roles depending on what she's doing and who she's with. A game that got out of hand and will probably hurt someone down the line, but also what Yasu sees as her best avenue for happiness.

I think there is a reason why Zepar and Furfur, rather than insisting that "two bodies are needed for love" (in other words, the problem is that all these personalities can't have control over the same body) keep on insisting that it's a crime for a single "body" to love more than one person (in other words, Yasu has created a bad situation through her pursuit of happiness by falling for more than one person). In that respect, it also makes sense that the Love Trial is basically a simple set up of "well, who has the most love"? (Who does Yasu love the most?) Because if they were really three personalities, there would be full three people, even if they shared a body.

There are also other little things that make me think this way.

As I'm playing through EP1, noting Kanon and Shannon's reactions to Battler are interesting because they're so similar. The slightest unexpected attention from Battler throws them off. They become hesitant and confused, unsure of what to say. This only makes sense if they are both just Yasu playing a part. If they were truly separate people from Yasu, there is no reason to get flustered when Battler so much as says hello. We even have Shannon rather strongly denying interest in George when Battler teases her about it, but the feeling is that it just sort of comes out of her mouth unintended.

I also think it's pretty easy to see through "magic" scenes and imagine Yasu as one person during them, especially during EP7 when we're going through the last parts of the flashback. There, especially, Shannon and Kanon seem sort of one-dimensional. It is Yasu-Beatrice that really feels alive and real, especially after she finds the gold and is brought to Kinzo.

Well, as for what drove Yasu to murder? In the end of the EP7, we see Yasu saying that she'll have questions later, but right now she's trying to take everything in. It also seems pretty obvious to me that Yasu identifies as female. Even Kanon is her "younger brother", not exactly a part of herself. More like Sakutaro than MARIA, in other words. So, finding out that she is technically XY instead of XX...well, to someone who always believed that they could just remake themselves out of unhappiness, that would be a horrifically cruel blow, wouldn't it?

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

No I'm saying fair play stories aren't riddles. They don't rule out every other possibilities, because they don't have to. As Renal said at one point it's very likely that once the final truth of arc 8 is out another equally valid interpretation can also coexist.

Fair play has nothing to do with the number of answers, fair play has to do with whether or not the answers are hinted to in the text. Every explanation you can find for fair play is summed up as can the reader come to the same answer as the detective before the detective announces it.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by musouka

Well, as for what drove Yasu to murder? In the end of the EP7, we see Yasu saying that she'll have questions later, but right now she's trying to take everything in. It also seems pretty obvious to me that Yasu identifies as female. Even Kanon is her "younger brother", not exactly a part of herself. More like Sakutaro than MARIA, in other words. So, finding out that she is technically XY instead of XX...well, to someone who always believed that they could just remake themselves out of unhappiness, that would be a horrifically cruel blow, wouldn't it?

There are two stumbling blocks on this route that everyone seems to ignore.

1. Who is Gaap? Is it anyone specific, another imaginary friend of Yasu, or an object? Check your explanation against Gaap activities in Ep4 and Ep5 in particular.
   • If Gaap is anyone specific, they are clearly aware of Yasu's problem. Anyone who is not Yasu is perfectly in position to resolve her inability to contact Battler. After all, nobody except Yasu who can possibly be Gaap possesses the social restrictions Yasu has. So why don't they?
   • If Gaap is an object, what kind of an object is it to be assigned all those exotic properties?
   • If Gaap is another of Yasu's imaginary friends, can she really perform all the activities associated with Gaap?
2. The text says that if Battler chose to return a year earlier or a year later, no tragedy would have occurred. Let us assume that the cause of the tragedy is really Yasu deciding to flip out and kill everyone as Ep7 seems to insist. How would it be possible for Battler to choose to return a year later then?

[Kitsu]

But the person that Yasu can become is limitless, right? There's no one path to happiness. Perhaps, Yasu will find a quiet sort of happiness with George. George seems interested, why not pursue that option? And, well, Jessica is sort of attractive, even if Yasu doesn't really want to admit it. Well, it might be best to close that avenue down...but, you can't clamp down on interest entirely, right?

So what we end up with is a girl that tends to change roles depending on what she's doing and who she's with. A game that got out of hand and will probably hurt someone down the line, but also what Yasu sees as her best avenue for happiness.

George may make sense but the creation of Kanon still doesn't fit. If Kanon was created for the attraction to Jessica why reject her? Kanon also says that his soul was already corrupted and his purpose was well..not pure.
If I were to take a guesss I would say that Kanon's original purpose was to hurt Jessica. Jessica seemed to be in desperate search of boyfriend since she entered highschool and didn't care much if she actually loved him (maybe she actually did care about it but Yasu never noticed) idealistic Yasu though that was a disgrace (insulting her feelings for Battler), also Battler had mentioned how much Jessica was his type. Furthermore Jessica was on the island the whole time and didn't seem to help Yasu at all. So Yasu created Kanon to hurt her, that was also the reason to reject her but along the way of getting closer to her Kanon/Yasu developed slight feelings of attraction/love for her.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Oliver

[list=1][*]Who is Gaap? Is it anyone specific, another imaginary friend of Yasu, or an object? Check your explanation against Gaap activities in Ep4 and Ep5 in particular.

• If Gaap is anyone specific, they are clearly aware of Yasu's problem. Anyone who is not Yasu is perfectly in position to resolve her inability to contact Battler. After all, nobody except Yasu who can possibly be Gaap possesses the social restrictions Yasu has. So why don't they?
• If Gaap is an object, what kind of an object is it to be assigned all those exotic properties?
• If Gaap is another of Yasu's imaginary friends, can she really perform all the activities associated with Gaap?

1. Gaap is not an object.
2. In EP7, Yasu obviously wants to get into contact with Battler, but doesn't tell anyone about it. Since no one knows that Yasu is in love with Battler, then no one is in the position of helping her with her problem.
3. Attributing actions to something doesn't mean they are actually doing them, unless you think Gaap-Beatrice is a person and is literally moving the brush and taunting Yasu in the chapel during EP7.

Originally Posted by Oliver

The text says that if Battler chose to return a year earlier or a year later, no tragedy would have occurred. Let us assume that the cause of the tragedy is really Yasu deciding to flip out and kill everyone as Ep7 seems to insist. How would it be possible for Battler to choose to return a year later then?

The text said that if Battler had come earlier or later, the outcome would have been different. This is so vague and can mean so many different things that you can basically tailor your speculation to whatever you want it to mean. I think it just means that 1986 was the time when Yasu's mental upheaval was at its greatest, and Battler was the straw that broke the camel's back. The year before, the equilibrium was pretty normal, and the year after, she would have been steady in one way or another. (Off the island, having truly given up? Accepted her body is what it is? Something else I'm not thinking of?)

Originally Posted by Kitsu

George may make sense but the creation of Kanon still doesn't fit. If Kanon was created for the attraction to Jessica why reject her?

Kanon wasn't created for Jessica, though. He was created to be an ally to Shannon, to help her through her heartache. The fact that Jessica liked him was an unforeseen consequence.

The Yasu we see in the flashback isn't really cruel. I would find it hard to believe that she would go to the trouble to create a character to deliberately torment Jessica, who she has no real issue with.

[Renall]

Yeah, but neither do I see any rationale, justification, or even any particular desire to cause a mass murder of any kind from this person. They seem very akin to Leon all the way up to 2 years prior, and Leon does not seem at all the sort with that inclination.

So something would have to very drastically change within the span of two years, but not so drastically and permanently that any delay past 1986 would be irrelevant. If the outcome is potentially able to change as much as one year forward or back (whatever that outcome is), why is 1986 the flashpoint?

I've never been able to read "Beatrice" as the culprit and I still can't.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by musouka

1. Gaap is not an object.
2. In EP7, Yasu obviously wants to get into contact with Battler, but doesn't tell anyone about it. Since no one knows that Yasu is in love with Battler, then no one is in the position of helping her with her problem.

...except Gaap and Claire who encourage Shannon repeatedly. If Gaap is in any way a person, they have to have some idea what's going on.

Notice the list of hurdles Shannon has on her way to contact Battler. Pretty much anyone else would overcome them trivially. This is not beyond the means of Shannon herself either -- a great witch would devise the strong magic of ...returning him a book with a love letter glued in, or something. Two words, "Call me" would do. If she can't bring herself to do anything to make her dream come true, does she really deserve it? Really, truly? Is she really as serious and struggling as she tells us?

But that is beside the point -- why doesn't anyone help? Sure, they don't know. But Gaap, if she is in any way a complete character and not a person in one scene and an imaginary friend in another, (and then we can't tell which) definitely can.

Originally Posted by musouka

This is so vague and can mean so many different things that you can basically tailor your speculation to whatever you want it to mean.

Which essentially means it doesn't mean anything.

[Kitsu]

Kanon wasn't created for Jessica, though. He was created to be an ally to Shannon, to help her through her heartache. The fact that Jessica liked him was an unforeseen consequence.

The Yasu we see in the flashback isn't really cruel. I would find it hard to believe that she would go to the trouble to create a character to deliberately torment Jessica, who she has no real issue with.

Still I find that reason to be too pure. Kanon seems to be very sore. If he were created for the sake of someone's happiness I don't think he would say such things especially not to the person he was created for.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Oliver

...except Gaap and Claire who encourage Shannon repeatedly. If Gaap is in any way a person, they have to have some idea what's going on.

This presumes that Gaap is a person, which is presuming way too much.

Originally Posted by Oliver

Notice the list of hurdles Shannon has on her way to contact Battler. Pretty much anyone else would overcome them trivially. This is not beyond the means of Shannon herself either -- a great witch would devise the strong magic of ...returning him a book with a love letter glued in, or something. Two words, "Call me" would do. If she can't bring herself to do anything to make her dream come true, does she really deserve it? Really, truly? Is she really as serious and struggling as she tells us?

I'm sorry, I have to disagree with this completely.

1. Does Yasu have a book that needs to be returned to him in the first place? Yasu is not an idiot. If she had an excuse to find out anything about Battler, she would have taken it. She even thinks as much to herself.

2. Presuming such a book exists and Yasu is an idiot. How is Yasu going to return a book to him in the first place? Even if she had been able to get Rudolf's address, that won't help her get Battler's because he's already moved to a different place.

3. Her only human allies are servants that are only connected directly to the island. Even if she works up the courage to ask Genji or Kumasawa for their assistance, do you really think they're going to approve and help her out with this? For one thing, Genji is basically keeping Yasu there on purpose, to see if Kinzo will figure it out and not go into rape-mode. Helping her pursue an ultimately fruitless crush that goes directly against his own plans isn't something he's going to leap to do. Kumasawa is a better bet, but still limited in her ability to help. No matter how skilled she is, as Yasu points out, it looks WEIRD for a servant to ask for a guest's current address.

4. Yasu is ten years old. The oldest we see her in the flashbacks is fourteen. Why on earth are you being judgmental over the decision process of a child? Why are you saying a child in this situation should only be deserving of happiness if they show the mental fortitude and intelligence of an adult? Yes, getting a phone number or address would be easy for me or you in that situation. However, I am not a ten year old little girl, struggling with the idea of asserting myself to people whose job it is to boss me around.

Originally Posted by Oliver

But that is beside the point -- why doesn't anyone help? Sure, they don't know. But Gaap, if she is in any way a complete character and not a person in one scene and an imaginary friend in another, (and then we can't tell which) definitely can.

What you are saying is like blaming Sakutaro for not "saving" Maria. Gaap has no influence on reality.

[Used Can]

I never really intended to say that Yasu's issue was simple.^^
At that moment I simply didn't want to write a long post, and based on my previous posts in this thread, I thought most people would understood what I mean. But, either way, that was my mistake.

I agree with most of the things you've said, but we've also got to remember Yasu is very aware all those other characters are not real. This was made rather clear when she found the gold and Genji showed up.

As for her issue with her body. I've heard several theories. One of the is that she found out she's Battler's relative, and thus she believes she's unable to love him, and she doesn't want to become like Kinzo either. Another one is that she's intersexual. And another one is that her genitals were damaged after the fall. Personally, I think the last one makes sense when couple with the fact Yasu was stated to have a late growth. Now, whether Yasu is male or female I don't know. Your theory on Yasu seeming to think she's a girl and then finding out she's a male sort of makes sense. But well, Yasu's speech when she's not taking any roles has always been gender neutral. Yasu has only used a female way of speaking whenever she plays the role of a witch or Shannon. That, and Yasu created Kanon before solving the Epitaph, meaning that Yasu was already playing male roles before finding out whatever (s)he found out after solving the Epitaph.

In addition to all of this, I don't think this was the sole reason why all of these events are happening. Personally, as I've said before, I believe something must have occurred between the time Yasu solved the Epitaph and the family conference of 1986. I'm sure 1985 is a crucial year.

Originally Posted by Oliver

Notice the list of hurdles Shannon has on her way to contact Battler. Pretty much anyone else would overcome them trivially. This is not beyond the means of Shannon herself either -- a great witch would devise the strong magic of ...returning him a book with a love letter glued in, or something. Two words, "Call me" would do. If she can't bring herself to do anything to make her dream come true, does she really deserve it? Really, truly? Is she really as serious and struggling as she tells us?

Well, for some reason, Yasu seemed to have taken the idea that waiting was her role. She waited for years, but then it seemed Battler himself had forgot about her. In addition to this, there was the whole "he's moved on and is working on his new life" that George told her. So, I guess it's understandable why she wouldn't contact him after believing he had forgot about her.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by musouka

This presumes that Gaap is a person, which is presuming way too much.

So she isn't. And she isn't an object either. What exactly is her role in Ep4 then?

Originally Posted by musouka

1. Does Yasu have a book that needs to be returned to him in the first place? Yasu is not an idiot. If she had an excuse to find out anything about Battler, she would have taken it. She even thinks as much to herself.

Yes she does have a book Battler gave her and told her to keep, the text says so explicitly. That he did tell her to keep it is not known by anyone else.

Originally Posted by musouka

2. Presuming such a book exists and Yasu is an idiot. How is Yasu going to return a book to him in the first place? Even if she had been able to get Rudolf's address, that won't help her get Battler's because he's already moved to a different place.

Give it to Rudolf so that he gives it to Battler next time he tries to talk him back home. Rudolf would be glad to have an excuse too.

Originally Posted by musouka

3. Her only human allies are servants that are only connected directly to the island. Even if she works up the courage to ask Genji or Kumasawa for their assistance, do you really think they're going to approve and help her out with this?

...So do they think she should be a servant for the rest of her life, or don't they? I'm sorry but you need to pick one.

Originally Posted by musouka

For one thing, Genji is basically keeping Yasu there on purpose, to see if Kinzo will figure it out and not go into rape-mode.

Wait a moment.
So what will Genji do if Kinzo figures it out and then goes into rape-mode anyway? Genji would be powerless to prevent it.

Think about it for a minute.

Originally Posted by musouka

No matter how skilled she is, as Yasu points out, it looks WEIRD for a servant to ask for a guest's current address.

"Hello, mister policeman. My little granddaughter is looking for her friend, who has moved away, ho-ho-ho." You'd be amazed how well this works.

Originally Posted by musouka

4. Yasu is ten years old. The oldest we see her in the flashbacks is fourteen. Why on earth are you being judgmental over the decision process of a child? Why are you saying a child in this situation should only be deserving of happiness if they show the mental fortitude and intelligence of an adult? Yes, getting a phone number or address would be easy for me or you in that situation. However, I am not a ten year old little girl, struggling with the idea of asserting myself to people whose job it is to boss me around.

Actually, no. Yasu is twelve years old in 1980. She's 14 by 1982. 16 by 1984. Why am I being judgemental over the decision process of a child? Because you might not believe it (few people do) but I have been a child too. Got no other measure to other people than myself, sorry.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I agree with most of the things you've said, but we've also got to remember Yasu is very aware all those other characters are not real. This was made rather clear when she found the gold and Genji showed up.

Oh yes, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Yasu is well aware that the roles and characters she creates aren't real. This is made clear in the scene with Genji, as you said, and also when we see her playing with Maria.

Originally Posted by Used Can

As for her issue with her body. I've heard several theories. One of the is that she found out she's Battler's relative, and thus she believes she's unable to love him, and she doesn't want to become like Kinzo either.

My biggest problem with this is that her blow up at Nanjo and Genji mentions the cliff, not the idea that Kinzo had sex with his own daughter. I suppose you could read the scene to read "this body = this body created with incest", though.

Originally Posted by Used Can

Another one is that she's intersexual. And another one is that her genitals were damaged after the fall.

I think it's probably one of these two, considering the emphasis we get on the mystery of her gender.

Originally Posted by Used Can

Personally, I think the last one makes sense when couple with the fact Yasu was stated to have a late growth. Now, whether Yasu is male or female I don't know. Your theory on Yasu seeming to think she's a girl and then finding out she's a male sort of makes sense. But well, Yasu's speech when she's not taking any roles has always been gender neutral. Yasu has only used a female way of speaking whenever she plays the role of a witch or Shannon. That, and Yasu created Kanon before solving the Epitaph, meaning that Yasu was already playing male roles before finding out whatever (s)he found out after solving the Epitaph.

Yes, this is also true. But it's also hard for me to imagine that Yasu would get so infuriated over something she already knew about herself. You can read it as finally having someone to blame for it, but I would think that if she felt that this was really an obstacle, she would have never allowed herself to get close enough to fall in love in the first place.

Originally Posted by Used Can

In addition to all of this, I don't think this was the sole reason why all of these events are happening. Personally, as I've said before, I believe something must have occurred between the time Yasu solved the Epitaph and the family conference of 1986. I'm sure 1985 is a crucial year.

I know the game directly states that it might have been the issue with furniture, through Leon, but I think that flash at the end makes it pretty clear that Yasu didn't define herself as furniture until after she had that breakdown at Genji and Nanjo.

The only things we really know of are that Shannon and George were growing closer, right? But I really hesitate to try to dump all Yasu's woes on that slender piece of evidence, especially since, as I said, I don't believe Yasu has DID.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Oliver

So she isn't. And she isn't an object either. What exactly is her role in Ep4 then?

The same role she has everywhere else. An imaginary character.

Originally Posted by Oliver

Yes she does have a book Battler gave her and told her to keep, the text says so explicitly. That he did tell her to keep it is not known by anyone else.

Wasn't that a book Battler had borrowed from her?

Originally Posted by Oliver

Give it to Rudolf so that he gives it to Battler next time he tries to talk him back home. Rudolf would be glad to have an excuse too.

How is Yasu to know that Rudolf would be glad to have that excuse? She feels like Battler's presence is fading away from the people on the island. Not only that, but Yasu isn't shown to be the sort of outgoing kid that would feel comfortable asking an adult to do her a favor.

Originally Posted by Oliver

...So do they think she should be a servant for the rest of her life, or don't they? I'm sorry but you need to pick one.

Huh? There are a lot of reasons Kumasawa and Genji wouldn't leap to help Yasu make a romantic connection with Battler, regardless of her "being a servant for the rest of her life".
1. Yasu's age.
2. Want to keep her on the island as long as possible.
3. They know that it's incest.

Originally Posted by Oliver

Wait a moment.
So what will Genji do if Kinzo figures it out and then goes into rape-mode anyway? Genji would be powerless to prevent it.

You'd have to ask Genji that. He was the one that said he hoped Kinzo would "have enough love" to recognize Yasu.

Originally Posted by Oliver

"Hello, mister policeman. My little granddaughter is looking for her friend, who has moved away, ho-ho-ho." You'd be amazed how well this works.

"I'm sorry, m'am, without a name, we don't have any place to start looking for your granddaughter's friend. Do you at least know a general location where he would be? You don't? Sorry, there's nothing we can do."

Originally Posted by Oliver

Actually, no. Yasu is twelve years old in 1980. She's 14 by 1982. 16 by 1984. Why am I being judgemental over the decision process of a child? Because you might not believe it (few people do) but I have been a child too. Got no other measure to other people than myself, sorry.

No, she is mentally a ten year old. Her age might literally be twelve years old, but she has the schooling and experiences of someone much younger than she is.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by musouka

Yes, this is also true. But it's also hard for me to imagine that Yasu would get so infuriated over something she already knew about herself. You can read it as finally having someone to blame for it, but I would think that if she felt that this was really an obstacle, she would have never allowed herself to get close enough to fall in love in the first place.

Actually, Yasu wouldn't have need to know. If Yasu was born male, and his genitals were damaged and some surgery was made so that he could still urinate, then it'd be possible for him to mistake his gender, depending on the procedure taken to achieve this. In the case Yasu was born female, there's also no way she'd know her genitals were damaged, until she was told.

Remember, when Yasu had that breakdown, Yasu referred to her body as a "body that can no longer love". This being the reason why she said a person like herself/himself cannot be called human, but furniture.

Originally Posted by musouka

I know the game directly states that it might have been the issue with furniture, through Leon, but I think that flash at the end makes it pretty clear that Yasu didn't define herself as furniture until after she had that breakdown at Genji and Nanjo.

The only things we really know of are that Shannon and George were growing closer, right? But I really hesitate to try to dump all Yasu's woes on that slender piece of evidence, especially since, as I said, I don't believe Yasu has DID.

No, I didn't mean that. My point was that, something other than the furniture deal may be the reason why this incident happened. Say, someone found out Yasu's secret and identity and used Yasu. I'd have to see how Battler would fit in this, though, but I'm sure there's a way.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by musouka

Wasn't that a book Battler had borrowed from her?

As far as I can tell, it wasn't.

Originally Posted by musouka

How is Yasu to know that Rudolf would be glad to have that excuse? She feels like Battler's presence is fading away from the people on the island. Not only that, but Yasu isn't shown to be the sort of outgoing kid that would feel comfortable asking an adult to do her a favor.

If Gaap is her imaginary friend, it's herself who wants to believe the quarrel will soon be over and that Rudolf wants it to be over. If she wants to believe it, it's sufficient even if she doesn't know for sure.

Originally Posted by musouka

2. Want to keep her on the island as long as possible.

...Now that's when you start having to dip Genji and Kumasawa in the mud to cover that interpretation of Yasu.

Originally Posted by musouka

You'd have to ask Genji that. He was the one that said he hoped Kinzo would "have enough love" to recognize Yasu.

Same, but even more, and with much heavier implications. Essentially you're blaming Genji for indirectly making Yasu's romance fail and causing the entire mess, and taking some really heavy risks if he really believes what you say he believes, all in hopes of Kinzo suddenly going sane.

It's easy to blame Genji because his real character is almost undetailed and his motivations are not known. But there's the same problem as with "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo." Eventually, there's no evil you cannot blame on the character you don't really know. Might as well say this is Genji's gamble and Yasu is really his child, that would at least make certain sense.

Originally Posted by musouka

"I'm sorry, m'am, without a name, we don't have any place to start looking for your granddaughter's friend. Do you at least know a general location where he would be? You don't? Sorry, there's nothing we can do."

I don't mean just the general "police". Local police. The people who are charged with knowing who in their district has a heart disease in that country. In particular, Kumasawa definitely can get Rudolf's location and Asumu's maiden name, if she doesn't know these already. This isn't something knocking on a few doors wouldn't solve.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Actually, Yasu wouldn't have need to know. If Yasu was born male, and his genitals were damaged and some surgery was made so that he could still urinate, then it'd be possible for him to mistake his gender, depending on the procedure taken to achieve this. In the case Yasu was born female, there's also no way she'd know her genitals were damaged, until she was told.

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Which is why I said I think Yasu thinks of herself as a girl. It could be Kanon is the subconscious remnant of Yasu's original gender (if male) or a reflection of of their true, unknown-to-her gender if they have something like "androgen insensitivity syndrome". (Which actually probably is what Yasu has, if she's actually intersex)

Originally Posted by Used Can

No, I didn't mean that. My point was that, something other than the furniture deal may be the reason why this incident happened. Say, someone found out Yasu's secret and identity and used Yasu. I'd have to see how Battler would fit in this, though, but I'm sure there's a way.

That's certainly possible, but I don't see a lot of hard evidence for it in the games themselves. But, seeing Yasu as she is in the Tea Party is really striking and sad, so it does feel like there has to be something big there.