[Manga] Naruto Chapter 620 Discussion Thread

[gibits]

So the Hokage are the ones that know everything? I can see how that would be the case for the first and second but even Minato?
He was only the Hokage for what? 3 months? What could he possibly know beyond what has already revealed? As far as I'm concerned the 4th has already done his big reveal.
What could be left?

[Kowai]

Originally Posted by gibits

So the Hokage are the ones that know everything? I can see how that would be the case for the first and second but even Minato?
He was only the Hokage for what? 3 months? What could he possibly know beyond what has already revealed? As far as I'm concerned the 4th has already done his big reveal.
What could be left?

Sasuke wants to know what reaaally happened the night the 9 tails attacked the village.

[Alchemist007]

Hell, no one of the current generation even knows that Minato is his father right? One more thing for him to find out since the man's right there.

[ranchan13]

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Hell, no one of the current generation even knows that Minato is his father right? One more thing for him to find out since the man's right there.

And I think that Sasuke learning that Naruto is the son of a Hokage will flip the shit.
"That bastard really was special after all, that pisses me off. Burn Konoha! Burn!!!"

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i agree that that seems to be it, but it isn't enough for me to accept them as the uchiha's rival. having a strong body isn't enough to counteract top tier genjutsu or amaterasu or susano'o, etc... just look at how naruto falls for genjutsu so easily and chakra and vitality are his specialty

You drastically underestimate what strong body means when Hashirama DNA has been shown to be the miracle product that can do any and everything. The body of the sage means incredible chakra and stamina, wounds closing by themselves, stronger, bigger and spamable jutsu, etc.
Danzou ran 10 Sharingan + Shishui eye thanks to that and Obito became Kage level almost overnight. The "body of the sage" is unbelievably potent, the only thing that come close to its power is in fact the Sharingan.
Now of course not every Senju is/was/whatever happened to them can be compared to Hashirama but then not every Uchiha can be compared to Madara either.

Originally Posted by ranchan13

And I think that Sasuke learning that Naruto is the son of a Hokage will flip the shit.
"That bastard really was special after all, that pisses me off. Burn Konoha! Burn!!!"

Why would he flip about something that is completely irrelevant to him when he kept his cool and stood there listening the Tobirama?

Originally Posted by gibits

So the Hokage are the ones that know everything? I can see how that would be the case for the first and second but even Minato?
He was only the Hokage for what? 3 months? What could he possibly know beyond what has already revealed? As far as I'm concerned the 4th has already done his big reveal.
What could be left?

Learning the confirmation that Tobi's action set the Uchiha clan up.
In the end Sasuke will be redeemed, for that there are some things that can't happen which mean he'll not burn Konoha, will not use the Edo Hokage against their own people and will not fight along side with Madara and Tobi. In fact it's quite probable the Hokage will be sent to the battlefield in order to take down Edo-Madara and Sasuke will be seen fighting against Tobi & co. Long story short while Sasuke and Naruto will probably duck it out to settle things the world at large will still credit Sasuke for being an essential part of saving the world which will go a long way toward forgetting his action at the Kage meeting particularly if Naruto the Messiah vouches for him.

[Dengar]

I see possibilities of him leaving the village alone, but there's also the possibility that it will make him rage.

And even if he doesn't rage, he'll probably still have a different view of things from Naruto's, so a clash is inevitable.

It's also possible that the war will be over soon. -Unless- Tobi performs Rinne Tensei to completely revive Madara as the Ten-Tails Jinchuuriki.

[janipani]

Is not big deal even Sasuke would burn Konoha, that wood producing dude can fix it in one day. That was great way to make things meaningless.

[DarthDestroiar]

I would/will love too se Madara reaction when he sees the first again.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I dunno, Madara doesn't seem that much of a threat right now anymore.

Well, apart from the whole not-dying thing.

When he fought with the 1st hokage they were pretty close in power level, but the present Madara was improved, his goal was to collect the 1st's cells and make himself stronger. We already saw he can use all of the known jutsu of the 1st and more importantly he has the rinnegan now. So why do you expect that a fight between these two would go the same way?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

You drastically underestimate what strong body means when Hashirama DNA has been shown to be the miracle product that can do any and everything. The body of the sage means incredible chakra and stamina, wounds closing by themselves, stronger, bigger and spamable jutsu, etc.
Danzou ran 10 Sharingan + Shishui eye thanks to that and Obito became Kage level almost overnight. The "body of the sage" is unbelievably potent, the only thing that come close to its power is in fact the Sharingan.
Now of course not every Senju is/was/whatever happened to them can be compared to Hashirama but then not every Uchiha can be compared to Madara either.

i purposely left hashirama out of my point since he's clearly the outlier. i mean the senju as a clan (minus hashirama) and you can take madara out of the uchiha clan as well and i think my point still holds. it's true that not every uchiha is remotely comparable to madara's power, but every uchiha who can fight on any meaningful level did have/has the sharingan, while no other senjus even had an inkling of hashirama's wood element or life force. even non-MS sharingan are capable of using izanagi and more likely they are capable of reflecting and mimicking techniques, and using powerful genjutsu. not even to mention that the uchiha body is super powered as well. maybe not as much as the senju, but enough for orochimaru to want it above all others available. even above juugo's which was proven to have nature/sage abilities.

the senju having 'incredible chakra and stamina, wounds closing by themselves (which i think is hashirama only) stronger, bigger, spamable jutsu, etc.' doesn't account for them being trapped in genjutsu or having their moves reversed on them. look how easily deidara fell for the sharingan's reflection. and how easy naruto falls under genjutsu. granted it was itachi, but he wasn't using MS, just ordinary sharingan ability. i understand that what you're saying is kishi's explanation of how the senju are comparable, but i will only buy it if they have some sort of ability that negates the sharingans powers. like was said before, tobirama looked right into sasuke's MS without worry. i want to know why and get a better explanation of why they can do that

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

When he fought with the 1st hokage they were pretty close in power level, but the present Madara was improved, his goal was to collect the 1st's cells and make himself stronger. We already saw he can use all of the known jutsu of the 1st and more importantly he has the rinnegan now. So why do you expect that a fight between these two would go the same way?

I don't expect a fight between those two to go the same way. I expect a fight between those two to not take place. At least, not the way things are now. Old dead fogeys have no business barging in on the current generation's fight.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

and how easy naruto falls under genjutsu. granted it was itachi, but he wasn't using MS, just ordinary sharingan ability.

....That wasn't a Sharingan ability.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i understand that what you're saying is kishi's explanation of how the senju are comparable, but i will only buy it if they have some sort of ability that negates the sharingans powers. like was said before, tobirama looked right into sasuke's MS without worry. i want to know why and get a better explanation of why they can do that

First of all, all you need to do is not look into their eyes, no big deal there. Guy can fight doujutsu users just fine, and his name isn't Senju. And Sasuke wasn't using any genjutsu at that point so there's no telling if there's any immunity there.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

....That wasn't a Sharingan ability.

regardless, it was an uchiha vs an uzumaki (who are close to the senju in the RS's body powers)

First of all, all you need to do is not look into their eyes, no big deal there. Guy can fight doujutsu users just fine, and his name isn't Senju.

i think you highly overestimate the senju if you think they battled the uchiha all those years on equal ground without eye contact. also, you just mentioned how eye contact isnt even necessary to cast genjutsu. and just think about izanagi which was 'widely used' according to the explanation we got from izanami

And Sasuke wasn't using any genjutsu at that point so there's no telling if there's any immunity there.

yes there is. you can tell by tobirama's expression, movement and words. he was interested in his MS but not fearful in the least

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i purposely left hashirama out of my point since he's clearly the outlier. i mean the senju as a clan (minus hashirama) and you can take madara out of the uchiha clan as well and i think my point still holds.

I don't see what your point could possibly be then because we only really know three Senju (and even then not all that much): Hashirama, Tobirama and Tsunade.
We know virtually nothing of the average Senju and we don't know much more about the average Uchiha to be honest.

like was said before, tobirama looked right into sasuke's MS without worry. i want to know why and get a better explanation of why they can do that

Who hasn't? This is a serious question mind you, Sasuke barely ever uses Genjutsu to start with whereas everybody look at him without much caution, why'd you start to find that weird only now?

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

regardless, it was an uchiha vs an uzumaki (who are close to the senju in the RS's body powers)

That's... I'm sorry you normally make some solid arguments, but you're trying to say that Senju should be immune to the Sharingan and then point out that Naruto was under a genjutsu which wasn't even made by the Sharingan!

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

yes there is. you can tell by tobirama's expression, movement and words. he was interested in his MS but not fearful in the least

The point is still moot because Sasuke wasn't using any genjutsu at that time, he was just showing off his eyes. I mean, how the hell does a guy not being hypnotized by someone who isn't doing any hypnotizing prove that said guy is immune to hypnosis?


And it's not like every average Joe Uchiha could do Tsukiyomi, and it's possible to break free from any other jutsu if you have enough control over your own chakra flow (and we all know that chakra control isn't Naruto's greatest asset).

[dagr81]

i thought the fact they showed his eyes was because of his emotion and the explanation?
w

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Old dead fogeys have no business barging in on the current generation's fight.

They already are, since Madara is fighting Naruto and the others right now and it doesn't look good for them. I expect that they will be able to stop the 10-tails since Obito's 10-tails is not a perfect one and more importantly because Madara isn't really helping Obito there. But when they're done with Obito and the 10-tails then there's Madara and they won't have the strength left to fight him, since they were fighting for about 2 days now and Naruto had countless fights in this last day, he should be very exhaused by now. So it's very likely that some outside force has to save them, and the 5 current kages were already defeated without too much effort, that leaves us with Hashirama and the other 3 zombie kages. Madara's goal was always to become stronger than Hashirama, and now he should be, it might be that Kishimoto will use Hashirama as a measuring stick for the current Madara's strength, because we still didn't see Madara's full power since he wasn't taking the kages seriously.

Originally Posted by dagr81

i thought the fact they showed his eyes was because of his emotion and the explanation?

Of course it was, he turned on his eyes when hearing Tobirama insulting the Uchiha clan. Also it was a display of power so that the kages would not take him lightly.
But i wonder if drawing his eyes like this was an error or it was on purpose. What would be the point of making a difference between MS and EMS here.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

I don't see what your point could possibly be then because we only really know three Senju (and even then not all that much): Hashirama, Tobirama and Tsunade. We know virtually nothing of the average Senju

that's basically my point. we know the senju have strong bodies and wills and are jacks of all trades which basically means nothing specific. i want to know what exactly they are capable of to justify them being on the same level as the uchiha. and if they dont have any specific power that will be revealed later, then i'll be disappointed in kishi's aggrandizement of the senju over the past couple years. i already am disappointed since so far it makes no sense that they dont even exist anymore... but that can hopefully be explained soon.

Who hasn't? This is a serious question mind you, Sasuke barely ever uses Genjutsu to start with whereas everybody look at him without much caution, why'd you start to find that weird only now?

that is true that everyone looks, but the senju are supposed to know the most about the uchiha so i would expect some caution around a powerful uchiha with MS eyes. since they dont have caution i expect that they have some sort of counter to the sharingan that is not revealed yet. but yea, it's a problem with the story that other people look into it and sasuke never genjutsus them instantly. it's partly explained that sasuke cant use genjutsu that well, at least not like itachi, but people who never met him have no reason to know that. they should prepare for the worst. i think it is an issue in the storytelling since opponents' wariness of looking at the MS is sporadic and conforms to kishi's needs at the given time. my point is just that of all people, the senju should know better. or maybe they do know better and we will be given a reason for their carelessness

Originally Posted by Dengar

That's... I'm sorry you normally make some solid arguments, but you're trying to say that Senju should be immune to the Sharingan and then point out that Naruto was under a genjutsu which wasn't even made by the Sharingan!

my point is that the senju shouldn't compare to the uchiha given what we know so far and that the senju need more information in regard to their abilities which we will most likely get soon.

The point is still moot because Sasuke wasn't using any genjutsu at that time, he was just showing off his eyes. I mean, how the hell does a guy not being hypnotized by someone who isn't doing any hypnotizing prove that said guy is immune to hypnosis?

no. the senju should be well aware of the potential power of a MS genjutsu. if an enemy pointed a gun at your face would you just stare at it and wait for them to fire? or would you take cover since you have established knowledge of what a gun is capable of doing?

And it's not like every average Joe Uchiha could do Tsukiyomi,

no, but the higher level uchiha fighters would all have normal sharingans capable of what i'm talking about. just an ordinary sharingan has been raised to god level powers thanks to izanagi and izanami. having a wealth of chakra and will power won't get you out of a powerful genjutsu and it wont stop your opponent from rewriting history.

and it's possible to break free from any other jutsu if you have enough control over your own chakra flow (and we all know that chakra control isn't Naruto's greatest asset).

not sure what you mean exactly, but it's certainly not the case that ninja can break free from any technique on their own. bee needed hachibi to break free form sasuke's genjutsu and bee is one of the best ninja in the series

[Poetic Justice]

Wait was that the Susannoo at the end there with the Kyubi? Madara was controlling both?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Wait was that the Susannoo at the end there with the Kyubi? Madara was controlling both?

yea it's crazy. it's madara controlling a complete kurama and susano'o vs hashirama controlling 2 wood dragons... i can't wait to see more of this haha

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

They already are, since Madara is fighting Naruto and the others right now and it doesn't look good for them.

They're winning, but it doesn't look good for them, yeah.

And they're not. They're talking to Sasuke right now, they're not interfering with anything.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

no. the senju should be well aware of the potential power of a MS genjutsu. if an enemy pointed a gun at your face would you just stare at it and wait for them to fire? or would you take cover since you have established knowledge of what a gun is capable of doing?

Sasuke isn't pointing guns at anyone.