[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[AuraTwilight]

Where's the contradiction? Parents can be one way in front of their children and another way around somebody else. I mean, Battler did have a point when he asked Ange if their parents would ever act like that in front of them.

There's also Kyrie acting like a massive idiot who didn't critically read the situation and effectively went apeshit and murdered everyone over a vague possibility of which no one could ultimately profit from better than if they had worked together.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There's also Kyrie acting like a massive idiot who didn't critically read the situation and effectively went apeshit and murdered everyone over a vague possibility of which no one could ultimately profit from better than if they had worked together.

If I'm correct, you weren't supposed to take that as having any value whatsoever since that was just some "theory" that was spreading around in 1998.

[AuraTwilight]

Then you're not really disagreeing with my original point...

[Sajomir]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

If we're going to go that route, than Umineko was never solvable because we were never given clues, because none of the information we got was reliable in any way and was most likely wrong.

Oops.

That's assuming you're still looking for one true answer, when several perfectly viable answers exist.
Any solution that fits the requirements of a problem is a valid solution. For example, a math problem where X could work as more than one number. As long as the problem works out, any of those answers is correct.

As long as you could come out to one of those, then the problem was presented to you correctly. As such, the problem is indeed solvable.

[AuraTwilight]

Yes, but if we're not working for what's true, then almost anything can be a valid solution. Ange killed everyone and got amnesia. Prove she didn't.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Then you're not really disagreeing with my original point...

Actually I am. What you were saying is that because everyone was acting different, it wasn't the truth. I'm saying that there was another side of the characters that wasn't shown to us until EP8 and that the theory in EP7 was obviously not the truth because it was intended to be presented that way. So just because the characters were different doesn't mean that it wasn't true, it just means there is possibly more to them than what we are presented.

[AuraTwilight]

Actually I am. What you were saying is that because everyone was acting different, it wasn't the truth.

I said it most likely wasn't...which is entirely valid because the information we were fed don't lead to those specific data points. Kyrie/Rudolf could be the culprits but they probably did not act like they did in that Tea Party, or else everyone we've seen of the two of them BEFOREHAND was largely falsehood; in which case, there was no point reasoning with the information given.

I'm saying that there was another side of the characters that wasn't shown to us until EP8 and that the theory in EP7 was obviously not the truth because it was intended to be presented that way. So just because the characters were different doesn't mean that it wasn't true, it just means there is possibly more to them than what we are presented.

Again, there is a difference between "These characters have another side to them" and "what we learned was incorrect."

[Sajomir]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Yes, but if we're not working for what's true, then almost anything can be a valid solution.

And hence, the point of accepting that it doesn't matter. After that, it's about picking which theory you felt was strongest and moving on. Ange chose to believe she would get a reunion, without going into further detail.

Anyway, I think that's the author's intent. Not to take away from coming up with fun theories, though!

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I said it most likely wasn't...which is entirely valid because the information we were fed don't lead to those specific data points. Kyrie/Rudolf could be the culprits but they probably did not act like they did in that Tea Party, or else everyone we've seen of the two of them BEFOREHAND was largely falsehood; in which case, there was no point reasoning with the information given.

Wait, was your original point aimed at the EP7 scene or character changes in general?

[CrimsonMoonMist]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think that Battler just imagined Beatrice being with him, that whole scene is way too strange to think there isn't some "magical stuff" involved. In the first place normally a person wouldn't be so euphoric after his whole family was massacred.

Anyway if you think there was no lie, you might want to revise the order of events. That scene starts with a panel saying "the third day" and when Battler goes out it's daylight. Since the explosion happened at midnight, then everything that was shown happened at least six hours after explosion.

Well, I take everything I see with a grain of salt, so not everything need to be as it was shown. Whenever Yasu went with Battler and drowned, or just wasn't there to begin with is of course up to interpretation. Basically, I'm kind of keeping on my ingot theory to deduce that she went with him,
why would it disappear before Beato was dead in the fantasy-view? my theory is that Yasu used it a extra weight so Battler couldn't save her.
It could signify that that ingot was never there either, but that seems kinda strange too since him taking a ingot with him doesn't seem odd in the slightest,
so why make it disappear? just symbolism maybe.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Not to mention "I have committed countless sins across countless worlds." Who the hell kills themselves over writing snuff fiction?

I kind of saw that as something pointing to her having guilt because even if she didn't, she did plan to kill all of them if things had gone differently.

[AuraTwilight]

Wait, was your original point aimed at the EP7 scene or character changes in general?

Well, I specifically brought it up against the EP7 Tea Party in this particular instance. It's what it was in response to when I copyquoted a message, afterall. :P

I kind of saw that as something pointing to her having guilt because even if she didn't, she did plan to kill all of them if things had gone differently.

I'm like 99% positive the bolded isn't actually the case.

[James Lame]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'm like 99% positive the bolded isn't actually the case.

I'd agree with that, but it could very well be that she had indirectly caused someones demise. Or maybe even something vaguer than that, like giving the opportunity for the murders to take place.

Now that I think about it, I don't think it actually adds up with what they were talking about. Saying "I have committed countless sins across countless worlds." is weird upon itself but if I'm not mistaken Battler said that she hadn't committed any sins in this world. So i can't really think of a logical reason that she would opt for suicide.

[Jan-Poo]

I want to add my input about the whole discussion about the tea party of EP7.

In the first place providing a solution in the end with something that was never hinted isn't narratively satisfying. It's not just a Knox rule, it simply doesn't really work well in narrative, that's what the layman calls "asspull". You can tell that the whole accident was caused by aliens or by a meteorite or by an international secret organization that was developing an atomic bomb. Anything could "work" if you have the freedom to come up with stuff that was never mentioned not hinted in any way, but that's completely lame and the readers won't be satisfied.

Even if a character has an hidden side there should be some hint or some reason to think that side exists. Now that Kyrie could be a murderer that was hinted well enough, no problem with that. But that Kyrie is completely stupid? Definitely not.
And here you can't talk about "sides". You are either an intelligent analytical person or you are dumb. What the EP7 party shows is a Kyrie that can't reason past the surface of things, which is totally at odd with anything we knew about her.

Naturally of you think Kyrie had other reasons, or that the part where she acts stupid are false scenes, that's a different matter. But then you need to provide an explanation.

Lastly I would like to express my opinion on the matter of "madness" as a movent for a culprit. While "mad" people exist and therefore it isn't unrealistic for a crime to be committed just out of pure madness, it's yet another thing that doesn't really work in narrative. If we are supposed to think about a movent (and Ryuukishi himself made a point about that) then it must be something worth our efforts. It must be something that can be deduced by logic and difficult to be obtained. "Madness" is an extremely easy and trivial answer to that question. Madness stands to whydunit as magic stands to howdunit: there is absolutely nothing you cannot explain with it. I'm not saying that the culprit shouldn't be mad, but the culprit needs to have a reason other than simply madness.

[st_nick5]

You know what I think would be awesome? If 07th Expansion released a disk with a bunch of murder games, like Bernkastel's murder game. I regret not taking my time with that one, I ended up not thinking hard enough and reading all the hints, and didn't actually work it out myself.

[Christen]

Finally, I can safely go here again without spoiling myself. That was a long hiatus. Thanks to Witch Hunt for the translation.

Also, Lambda did get in the top 5 of the popularity poll: http://when-they-cry.net/Cgi/vote/umi8/vote_end.html

[CrimsonMoonMist]

Originally Posted by st_nick5

You know what I think would be awesome? If 07th Expansion released a disk with a bunch of murder games, like Bernkastel's murder game. I regret not taking my time with that one, I ended up not thinking hard enough and reading all the hints, and didn't actually work it out myself.

Me too to a certain extent,
didn't read all the hints, but I really shouldn't have gotten impatient and used them at all to get started.
What's done is done, but I'd totally be for a disc specifically focused on that kind of murder game.
It really clicked with me how you'd first find hints for the innocent in the narration,
then use their purple to strike more peopel off the suspect list and use their purple to find more in a neat process of elimination.
In other words, it was a game, not to find who could have commited the crime, but who couldn't.
The purple and impartial narration ended up making it so much closer to a bona fide mystery novel,
and I'd love to see that expanded upon.

[AuraTwilight]

I'd agree with that, but it could very well be that she had indirectly caused someones demise. Or maybe even something vaguer than that, like giving the opportunity for the murders to take place.

Now that I think about it, I don't think it actually adds up with what they were talking about. Saying "I have committed countless sins across countless worlds." is weird upon itself but if I'm not mistaken Battler said that she hadn't committed any sins in this world. So i can't really think of a logical reason that she would opt for suicide.

There's the theory that the entire scene is fictional, since it's the "Golden Rose" Featherine tosses into the water.

Or that Beatrice was never in that scene and Battler is going nutters.

[James Lame]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There's the theory that the entire scene is fictional, since it's the "Golden Rose" Featherine tosses into the water.

Or that Beatrice was never in that scene and Battler is going nutters.

Yeah, I'd think both of those are more plausible than it being a real event.

[CrimsonMoonMist]

Originally Posted by James Lame

Yeah, I'd think both of those are more plausible than it being a real event.

I simply see it as Yasu going with Battler on the boat after he made her,
drowing herself using the ingot they brought as extra weight so Battler
couldn't save her and Battler falling unconscious after trying regardless.
Anything else about the scene I take with a grain of salt.
It's just as likely that she merely told him about the leftover base and the boat beforehand, but I don't see why it's more likely than the other.

[James Lame]

Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonMist

I simply see it as Yasu going with Battler on the boat after he made her,
drowing herself using the ingot they brought as extra weight so Battler
couldn't save her and Battler falling unconscious after trying regardless.
Anything else about the scene I take with a grain of salt.
It's just as likely that she merely told him about the leftover base and the boat beforehand, but I don't see why it's more likely than the other.

It still leaves the problem of why she'd want to kick the bucket.
Or maybe she just tripped.