AnimeSuki Forums

Question · 2007-03-02, 09:24

Ive heard of these terms mentioned before. What are they, and are there any advantages/disadvantages that make a fansub group choose one over the other?

Arc Ressiv · 2007-03-02, 10:07

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fansubs...sub_techniques
See the part on "Hard" subtitles and "Soft" subtitles

In soft subs you can turn off the subtitles. AMV makers usually love softsubs because you can easily extract the raw. You can even extract the script and make changes if you want to.

Hardsubs have an advantage if you are trying to play a video on an old computer. I know for a fact that some of the Studio adtrw people who were working on kamichi before it was lisenced couldn't play the final version of their releases. Hardsubs also can do dancing flashy karaoke, if you like that kind of thing.

softsubs for life o/

Devastator · 2007-03-02, 11:44

Some of these points were already touched before, but this is what I've observed with my own machines and from others.

Softsubs:
Pros
====
- customizability of fonts, sizes, colours, and the text itself (with little effort!)
- does not introduce artifacts around the subs when lower bitrates are used for the video, since they're separate tracks
- and others for fansubbing purposes

Cons
====
- heavy ASS commands can cripple playback
- claims that certain programs cannot display soft subs properly (I've yet to come across one of these, aside from the dreaded VLC)

Hardsubs:
Pros
====
- heavy use of ASS commands has no effect on playback
- following the con of softsubs, all programs can play hardsubs as intended
- for fansubbers, things that they don't want changed can't be without the use of another raw (eg. credits)

Cons
====
- no customizability of fonts, sizes, colours
- changing the text would require an additional encode (as well as a raw)
- artifacts start to appear around the subs due to the appearance / disappearance of them, especially at low bitrates

Access · 2007-03-02, 20:36

Hard subs are added to the video and then the video is re-encoded. Soft subs are like on a modern DVD where subs are stored seperately from the video.

One other thing is that done properly softsubs do not require that the raw is re-encoded / re-compressed, which is a good thing (for quality and size) if the raw was compressed to begin with.

checkers · 2007-03-02, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devastator

Softsubs:
Cons
====

Don't Forget That People Can Steal Your Subtitles!!!!!

Devastator · 2007-03-02, 21:48

I sort of listed that as "customizability." Script "stealing" would also be more of a fansubber con as well, and only to those that truly believe in ownership. Claims of ownership and otherwise implying "stealing" is just bull shit to me.

Starks · 2007-03-02, 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arc

Hardsubs also can do dancing flashy karaoke, if you like that kind of thing.

That's why softsubbers hardcode their karaoke. It would take up too much memory to render them in real time.

Quarkboy · 2007-03-03, 01:31

Softsubs: The lower half of the subtitles is pixelated or censored in some way.
Hardsubs: You can see the entire subtitle.

No? Maybe I'm confused...

Starks · 2007-03-03, 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Softsubs: The lower half of the subtitles is pixelated or censored in some way.
Hardsubs: You can see the entire subtitle.

No? Maybe I'm confused...

Eh? PICS.NAO!

Fimbulvetr · 2007-03-08, 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Softsubs: The lower half of the subtitles is pixelated or censored in some way.
Hardsubs: You can see the entire subtitle.

No? Maybe I'm confused...

Ignoring encoding artefacts in the hardsub file, softsubs should look exactly like hardsubs. If it doesn't you are either using a broken renderer or you found a bug.

edit: So, it was a joke? Yeah I'm still laughing ...

Quarkboy · 2007-03-08, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fimbulvetr

Ignoring encoding artefacts in the hardsub file, softsubs should look exactly like hardsubs. If it doesn't you are either using a broken renderer or you found a bug.

edit: So, it was a joke? Yeah I'm still laughing ...

It's a sad commentary on myself when even my potty-humor goes over 90% of people's heads.

checkers · 2007-03-09, 01:06

I got it

Crovax · 2007-03-10, 12:58

Another disadvantage of softsubs is that not everyone sees the subs rendered the same. For example if your use libass in Linux to typeset your episode youll be shocked to find they are displayed quite differently in Windows cuz of a different renderer or w/e. (Not an expert on this, just know that a lot of trouble/effort and a custom-made VDubMod plugin was required to set it right. Which of course means, hardsubs.)

Basically, you get WYSIWYG with hardsubs whereas this is not true for softsubs.

Another (to me, very important) advantage to hardsubs is that as was mentioned, all players will play it as intended. Even standalone DVD-players which support avi-playback. (Though usually you'll need to encode it with DivX/Xvid to make it work, heh.)

Softsubs has 2 important advantages (to the viewer) imho:

- Higher quality video due to no recompressing/re-encoding (if the RAW was good) and due to no sub-artefacts.
- Fansub and RAW in one. In other words: ability to switch of subs.

xat · 2007-03-10, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crovax

Another disadvantage of softsubs is that not everyone sees the subs rendered the same. For example if your use libass in Linux to typeset your episode youll be shocked to find they are displayed quite differently in Windows cuz of a different renderer or w/e. (Not an expert on this, just know that a lot of trouble/effort and a custom-made VDubMod plugin was required to set it right. Which of course means, hardsubs.)

Basically, you get WYSIWYG with hardsubs whereas this is not true for softsubs.

This is changing over time; AFAIK (as in, last I heard) fundamental overrides (color, positioning) are now functioning mostly as they should.

Nicholi · 2007-03-10, 19:52

Currently libass only has very minor differences in the rendering of ASS subtitles. Nothing that would affect the original position/size/etc of the work done with a VSFilter outlook. I could post some examples if someone wants a particular fansub compared, just name a title. Also just on that note, libass is still a somewhat incomplete ASS/SSA renderer.

Unearthly · 2007-03-10, 21:45

One advantage I really like about soft subs is if you resize the video to a higher resolution the subs will match the higher resolution as well.

bx510 · 2007-03-11, 02:51

What i like about hard subs is the effects on the subtitles.... And what i hate about hard is you can't resize the fonts.

Zu Ra · 2007-03-11, 09:13

How to extract raws from softsubs ? Can I do it using VDub I am clueless

martino · 2007-03-11, 09:18

Extract raws from softsubs? What do you mean?

Mentar · 2007-03-11, 09:19

Depends on the codec+container used - if the mkv contained a normal avi (e.g. xvid), you can easily demux it using the mkvtoolnix package (google for it), if it's a h264 encode, you can only extract it raw - and that won't help you much.

However, the whole point is that you can simply turn the softsubs off during playback. In this case the .mkv acts like a normal raw. Much better than demuxing.

2007-03-02, 09:24	Link #1
Question Crossdresser Join Date: Jun 2006	What are "soft" and "hard" subs? Ive heard of these terms mentioned before. What are they, and are there any advantages/disadvantages that make a fansub group choose one over the other? __________________

2007-03-03, 01:31	Link #8
Quarkboy Translator, Producer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Tokyo, Japan Age: 44	Softsubs: The lower half of the subtitles is pixelated or censored in some way. Hardsubs: You can see the entire subtitle. No? Maybe I'm confused... __________________ Read Light Novels in English at J-Novel Club! Translator, Producer, Japan Media Export Expert Founder and Owner of J-Novel Club Sam Pinansky

2007-03-11, 09:13	Link #18
Zu Ra ✖ ǝʇ ɯıqnɾl ☆ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mortuary : D	How to extract raws from softsubs ? Can I do it using VDub I am clueless __________________

2007-03-11, 09:18	Link #19
martino makes no files now Join Date: May 2006	Extract raws from softsubs? What do you mean? __________________ "Light and shadow don't battle each other, because they're two sides of the same coin"

2007-03-02, 10:07	Link #2
Arc Ressiv 1 man sub team Join Date: Feb 2007	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fansubs...sub_techniques See the part on "Hard" subtitles and "Soft" subtitles In soft subs you can turn off the subtitles. AMV makers usually love softsubs because you can easily extract the raw. You can even extract the script and make changes if you want to. Hardsubs have an advantage if you are trying to play a video on an old computer. I know for a fact that some of the Studio adtrw people who were working on kamichi before it was lisenced couldn't play the final version of their releases. Hardsubs also can do dancing flashy karaoke, if you like that kind of thing. softsubs for life o/

2007-03-02, 11:44	Link #3
Devastator Senior Member Join Date: May 2006	Some of these points were already touched before, but this is what I've observed with my own machines and from others. Softsubs: Pros ==== - customizability of fonts, sizes, colours, and the text itself (with little effort!) - does not introduce artifacts around the subs when lower bitrates are used for the video, since they're separate tracks - and others for fansubbing purposes Cons ==== - heavy ASS commands can cripple playback - claims that certain programs cannot display soft subs properly (I've yet to come across one of these, aside from the dreaded VLC) Hardsubs: Pros ==== - heavy use of ASS commands has no effect on playback - following the con of softsubs, all programs can play hardsubs as intended - for fansubbers, things that they don't want changed can't be without the use of another raw (eg. credits) Cons ==== - no customizability of fonts, sizes, colours - changing the text would require an additional encode (as well as a raw) - artifacts start to appear around the subs due to the appearance / disappearance of them, especially at low bitrates

2007-03-02, 20:36	Link #4
Access Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004	Hard subs are added to the video and then the video is re-encoded. Soft subs are like on a modern DVD where subs are stored seperately from the video. One other thing is that done properly softsubs do not require that the raw is re-encoded / re-compressed, which is a good thing (for quality and size) if the raw was compressed to begin with.

2007-03-02, 21:48	Link #6
Devastator Senior Member Join Date: May 2006	I sort of listed that as "customizability." Script "stealing" would also be more of a fansubber con as well, and only to those that truly believe in ownership. Claims of ownership and otherwise implying "stealing" is just bull shit to me.

2007-03-09, 01:06	Link #12
checkers Part 8 IT Support Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Western Australia Age: 35	I got it

2007-03-10, 12:58	Link #13
Crovax A2000A Fansubber Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The Netherlands Age: 38	Another disadvantage of softsubs is that not everyone sees the subs rendered the same. For example if your use libass in Linux to typeset your episode youll be shocked to find they are displayed quite differently in Windows cuz of a different renderer or w/e. (Not an expert on this, just know that a lot of trouble/effort and a custom-made VDubMod plugin was required to set it right. Which of course means, hardsubs.) Basically, you get WYSIWYG with hardsubs whereas this is not true for softsubs. Another (to me, very important) advantage to hardsubs is that as was mentioned, all players will play it as intended. Even standalone DVD-players which support avi-playback. (Though usually you'll need to encode it with DivX/Xvid to make it work, heh.) Softsubs has 2 important advantages (to the viewer) imho: - Higher quality video due to no recompressing/re-encoding (if the RAW was good) and due to no sub-artefacts. - Fansub and RAW in one. In other words: ability to switch of subs.

2007-03-10, 19:52	Link #15
Nicholi King of Hosers Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 41	Currently libass only has very minor differences in the rendering of ASS subtitles. Nothing that would affect the original position/size/etc of the work done with a VSFilter outlook. I could post some examples if someone wants a particular fansub compared, just name a title. Also just on that note, libass is still a somewhat incomplete ASS/SSA renderer.

2007-03-10, 21:45	Link #16
Unearthly Member Join Date: Oct 2006	One advantage I really like about soft subs is if you resize the video to a higher resolution the subs will match the higher resolution as well.

2007-03-11, 02:51	Link #17
bx510 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006	What i like about hard subs is the effects on the subtitles.... And what i hate about hard is you can't resize the fonts.

2007-03-11, 09:19	Link #20
Mentar Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hamburg Age: 54	Depends on the codec+container used - if the mkv contained a normal avi (e.g. xvid), you can easily demux it using the mkvtoolnix package (google for it), if it's a h264 encode, you can only extract it raw - and that won't help you much. However, the whole point is that you can simply turn the softsubs off during playback. In this case the .mkv acts like a normal raw. Much better than demuxing.