Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[Darthtabby]

So one of Sheryl's personality flaws is a tendency to push herself too hard. So what?

(Other than, you know, the fact that having a tendency to push herself too hard kind of fits with the idea that the main reason she was so upset in Episode 12 was because she failed to do what she set out to do...)

[wisteria233]

Okay this is the only time I'm gonna say something

LMK the conflict with the Zentradi on Gallia 4 had been going on before Sheryl had even got there, it had been stated several times in earlier episodes and even referenced by Klan Klan. Sheryl was only called there to calm down the fighting, but she is not the reason for it escalating at all, as the fighting had already escalated before she landed.

Macross F contrary to your own delusions is not all about Ranka, and if you really want to talk about a character then you should make sure that you don't take your cues from fanfics and made up fantasies, made to demonize a character. Because the minute you do that, especially if you do that to make your own favorite character look good, then you only achieve the complete opposite and not only give yourself and your fellow fans a bad name, but you also make your favorite character look bad as well, and worse making others who read your ramblings hate your favorite character especially if they've seen the series and know that you're lying.

Fanfics=/= canon, Fanfic writer =/= entire fandom
Fanfics are creations by fans, which are a certain fans fantasies of the story but it has no bearing on either canon, or the entire fandom. So you'd do better leaving the fanfics on the fanfic thread. Fans can be prone to delusion, and even then most fanfic writers know that their fanfic doesn't apply to canon, and should never be considered in the context of the series.

[Lancel]

Ahh, where to begin? I suppose first I'll say Minmei is not a loli. She's too hot to be a loli. Bit young, but come on, she was destined to be a babe.

I never fully understood Grace's plan with Galia IV. I guess she wanted to kill off Sheryl and make it look like the Vajra did it so Frontier would be more gung ho about killing Vajra. She was probably irresponsible as a manager, but eh, she had her night job as an evil villain.

And now... the Sheryl.

Sheryl is a flawed character, I have no doubts about that, but then, who really isn't flawed? Sheryl is stubborn, overconfident, conceited, and at times foolish with a peculiar aversion to accepting help. I myself like her even for her flaws. She wants to do things herself, to accomplish things on her own and not have it given to her, and she has accomplished much because of it giving her great confidence. By this same process, she's hard-working, dedicated, strong-willed, a bit outgoing, and quite energetic. She feels unstoppable and without limit, and it frustrates her when something comes up as a road block, but over the course of the series she learns that she isn't, that there are things she can't do anything about, developing a bit of modesty that finally leads her to doing what she can do to make a difference, which is singing. Thus she learns her own limitations through the very, very hard way of facing death through a fatal disease, where nothing she does will change the outcome, left only with the option to do what she can with what she has left.

As character flaws though they can at the same time be looked upon in a very negative light. What some people can tolerate others cannot, and what some people may actually like others do not. Such is life. But now I'll step off the soap box to say that personally I adore Sheryl and her flaws, together they're just so damn entertaining.

At a related side note, that time period also had the most annoying bit of the love triangle, and possibly leads to the very reason Sheryl didn't want Alto to find out she was dying. After Alto found out she couldn't tell anymore if he was really serious or just being nice to the dying girl, as she implies later to Luca with her 'kindness is a crime' speech. There's more complexity there, but that's all I wanted to share.

I do have to ask about this not wanting to demonize Sheryl comment though. I don't want to be confrontational, but I am curious about it because... well, quite honestly, I often have the feeling that you are trying to demonize her, and... I did read your fanfic and... yeah. Okay, that's basically the root of it there. Alto was fine, Ranka was fine, but Sheryl's been pretty horrific as a person in it so far. I haven't really seen a scene where anything of her could be depicted as positive, and it feels like there's a complete lack of empathy in her, and while sometimes I feel she can lack empathy when she's being ridiculously stubborn I have a hard time believing that's the Sheryl that sings Diamond Crevasse because it feels like she just has no empathy at all. I mean maybe it's just that you haven't gotten that far with the fic yet, but the closest I can place is that Sheryl largely looks like she did in the 'Galactic Bitch' scene with Cathy, only she's that way all the time and sometimes worse. But anyway, there lies the question I have, if you're sure she's not being demonized. I mean surely she can't be all bad as a character. I may be missing something I admit, I.. err.. don't read everything that goes on on these forums, heh. I can move this if this is inappropriate here.

[raile]

Hey, I can say I don't hate Vocalaid--and then proceed to make arguments about it that borders on bashing. Just sayin'.

Also, to go back on topic, after rewatching the SDF series, I gotta say, it kinda ends on a somewhat hanging note. It's great how Minmay resolved to move forward with her career and that Misa expressed her feelings, but with Hikaru...well I dunno. I'm not saying that he doesn't love Misa, but it would have been nice if he'd outright say it (but at least DYRL fixed this).

Then again, Hikaru and Misa's relationship has always been subtle, especially in terms of development.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by raile

Hey, I can say I don't hate Vocalaid--and then proceed to make arguments about it that borders on bashing. Just sayin'.

Also, to go back on topic, after rewatching the SDF series, I gotta say, it kinda ends on a somewhat hanging note. It's great how Minmay resolved to move forward with her career and that Misa expressed her feelings, but with Hikaru...well I dunno. I'm not saying that he doesn't love Misa, but it would have been nice if he'd outright say it (but at least DYRL fixed this).

Then again, Hikaru and Misa's relationship has always been subtle, especially in terms of development.

I think the fact that he ran after Misa, abandoning Minmay with bombs and missiles falling everywhere says more than any words could.

Notice, though, that he waited until Minmay ACTUALLY MOVED IN WITH HIM for at least a week or two before he left her behind...

(I really don't understand why the final episodes seem to create so much Minmay-fanrage (since, after all, she had no idea that anything was developing between Hikaru and Misa) and yet seem not to create any Hikaru-fanrage (since he kept pining after Minmay, told Misa that he'd put her photos in his album but that she shouldn't "get the wrong idea," made and subsequently broke a date with Misa to hang out with Minmay, and so on and so on...). Personally, I really dislike him towards the end of series.)

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I think the fact that he ran after Misa, abandoning Minmay with bombs and missiles falling everywhere says more than any words could.

Notice, though, that he waited until Minmay ACTUALLY MOVED IN WITH HIM for at least a week or two before he left her behind...

(I really don't understand why the final episodes seem to create so much Minmay-fanrage (since, after all, she had no idea that anything was developing between Hikaru and Misa) and yet seem not to create any Hikaru-fanrage (since he kept pining after Minmay, told Misa that he'd put her photos in his album but that she shouldn't "get the wrong idea," made and subsequently broke a date with Misa to hang out with Minmay, and so on and so on...). Personally, I really dislike him towards the end of series.)

Oh, don't worry, I think that Hikaru is a horrible, horrible person for doing that. I don't think saying "it was another era" or somesuch excuses his behaviour.

That's why I think Alto was the much superior character... whatever you want to say about the lack of sparklyness of his personality, the guy had a ton of loyalty to his friends and knew his duty to his home.

[raile]

Yeah, it's true. Despite how much I love the series, you cannot deny what a dick Hikaru was during those times. There were a lot of times I'd go "HIT HIM, MISA! SLAP HIM! FALCON PUNCH THAT PRICK! " He's lucky Misa isn't prone to violence considering his dick moves. I'm not saying that Hikaru doesn't have his good points, he does...it just gets lost in the romance department.

That is why his characterization in DYRL was an improvement I readily welcomed.

[vansonbee]

^
Sorry I haven't seen the Macross series you guys are discussing.

Was Misa being treated like Mitsuki from "Kimi ga Nozomu Eien"? It really does sound like it, I dislike those type of protagonist males, they only learn later in the series, that they took the girl, who treated them kindly for granted.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by raile

Yeah, it's true. Despite how much I love the series, you cannot deny what a dick Hikaru was during those times. There were a lot of times I'd go "HIT HIM, MISA! SLAP HIM! FALCON PUNCH THAT PRICK! " He's lucky Misa isn't prone to violence considering his dick moves. I'm not saying that Hikaru doesn't have his good points, he does...it just gets lost in the romance department.

That is why his characterization in DYRL was an improvement I readily welcomed.

He...he's definitely a likable guy...it just took him WAAAAY too long to shake off his infatuation for a girl who was never really that into him... It happens, especially when the girl in question is a pop star (and yes, I know this from experience...)

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Oh, don't worry, I think that Hikaru is a horrible, horrible person for doing that. I don't think saying "it was another era" or somesuch excuses his behaviour.

That's why I think Alto was the much superior character... whatever you want to say about the lack of sparklyness of his personality, the guy had a ton of loyalty to his friends and knew his duty to his home.

Yeah...overall, I'm not that fond of Alto, and found him to be thick as a post at times, but he absolutely has his head on straighter than Hikaru did.

Originally Posted by vansonbee

^
Sorry I haven't seen the Macross series you guys are discussing.

Well, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR??? It's the ORIGINAL, it's ICONIC, and it's TOTALLY, TOTALLY AWESOME!!!

GO WATCH IT!!! NAO!!

You'll thank me. Really.

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by raile

Hey, I can say I don't hate Vocalaid--and then proceed to make arguments about it that borders on bashing. Just sayin'.

Eh, I guess that settles that then.

Heh, Hikaru was a complete ass there toward the end, but he meant well. He just had a hard time saying no to a pretty face, not that this gets him out of getting his ass kicked by Misa. Poor guy.

What I really see as Alto handling it better than Hikaru is in the contrast between Hikaru's situation where he double-booked dates near the end and in Alto's birthday. Where Hikaru set up something with Misa and then blew her off when Minmei came along without even telling her, Alto gave no promises until he made a final decision and had the decency to get word to Ranka.

More importantly though, it's hard to get over the fact that Misa actually waited on him and then forgave him for being that late. I don't even recall her wanting an excuse, she just forgave him. I mean man, Hikaru, just... wow. Wow. Even ignoring his brilliant move of wrapping her up in the scarf he got from Minmei, eternal shame upon him for doing that to a girl who was that much into him.

Eh, at least he came around in the end, after he stopped being distracted by the sexy. Really, Misa ended up being a ridiculously nice person.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Lancel

Eh, I guess that settles that then.

Heh, Hikaru was a complete ass there toward the end, but he meant well. He just had a hard time saying no to a pretty face, not that this gets him out of getting his ass kicked by Misa. Poor guy.

Okay...maybe this wasn't your intention, but this is my problem with the Minmay-bashers/Hikaru-apologists...the sense that, well, she's a pretty girl, so what can a fella do besides act like a jerk to the woman who ACTUALLY loves him...?

(Incidentally, you also see this is the contemporary US comedy, "Mr. Mom," so it can't be written off as a cultural thing.)

I don't care WHAT decade we're in...if you're leading one girl on as a "consolation prize" because some other girl might reject you, that makes you a jerk.

Maybe (as I've said before) a likable jerk, but a jerk nonetheless.

Sorry if I'm misreading your post, BTW...

[Lancel]

Nah, don't get me wrong, he was being a total jerk. There's no excuse for it regardless of the time, you just don't do that sort of thing to anyone. He totally deserved an ass kicking for it. But I think he'll end up alright if he changes that aspect. I just kinda pity the guy, as aside from that he's not a bad person.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Lancel

Nah, don't get me wrong, he was being a total jerk. There's no excuse for it regardless of the time, you just don't do that sort of thing to anyone. He totally deserved an ass kicking for it. But I think he'll end up alright if he changes that aspect. I just kinda pity the guy, as aside from that he's not a bad person.

I don't pity him. He chose to treat Misa like dirt (of course, Misa also chose to be treated like dirt)...all while Minmay had problems of her own, oblivious to Hikaru and Misa's problems...

...

...jeez, all THREE of them suck, huh?

[Lancel]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I don't pity him. He chose to treat Misa like dirt (of course, Misa also chose to be treated like dirt)...all while Minmay had problems of her own, oblivious to Hikaru and Misa's problems...

...

...jeez, all THREE of them suck, huh?

They are all rather young and foolish, but grow and mature with time. I guess as anyone does.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Lancel

They are all rather young and foolish, but grow and mature with time. I guess as anyone does.

One hopes...

And honestly, I'm kinda offended that no one has asked me about my pop star experience...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

And honestly, I'm kinda offended that no one has asked me about my pop star experience...

Because... we are... afraid to ask...

Especially what that entails

- Tak

[wisteria233]

I understand when you're all coming from Hikaru was a dick during the last couple of episodes, though at the same time I do think that at that point in the series he was realizing that he had fallen out of love with Minmei, and in love with Misa, and also drove the point home to him that he and his lifestyle no longer matched Minmei. So not only had Hikaru fallen out of love with Minmei, now even if he thought of her in a practical manner they still wouldn't be a good match.

Even with all that in mind, it still doesn't make him any less of a jerk in the last couple of episodes. And I do agree that Alto even though he was dense (or pretending to be dense) he still didn't string Sheryl and Ranka along, like Hikaru did. But then again Alto did start out the series in love with either of them.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Because... we are... afraid to ask...

Especially what that entails

- Tak

Long story short:

The violinist kissed me, and I idolized her for the next couple of years or so.

I probably still do, considering that I bought her last few albums, and want to mention the fact that she's got a (TOTALLY INCREDIBLE) album coming out soon.

On topic: I disagree with Wisteria...I think Hikaru was still VERY MUCH in love with Minmay...but yeah, practically, there was no way he could be with her. After sleeping with her for a week or two, he probably realized this.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

On topic: I disagree with Wisteria...I think Hikaru was still VERY MUCH in love with Minmay...but yeah, practically, there was no way he could be with her. After sleeping with her for a week or two, he probably realized this.

I know I'm taking this out of context, but the implications are absolutely hilarious.

Hikaru: I just can't keep up with her. <sob>

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I know I'm taking this out of context, but the implications are absolutely hilarious.

Hikaru: I just can't keep up with her. <sob>

Hey, she's an energetic 18-year-old...what do you EXPECT...?