[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Levani]

I can't even laugh at this stupidity...

Are you fucking nuts? Jessica is Asumu's daughter? Have you read Umineko? Have you missed the part where the narrative tells you she looks like Natsuhi a lot? And how the flying fuck would Natsuhi be tricked into believing that Jess is her daughter?

This here is a contradiction. How can you know that I'm delusional with my interpretations if you didn't even consider them? In other words you lied.

Holy crap... you're on a whole other level of stupid aren't you?

For us to let it go there needs to be a disproving of our points.

I have an idea where you can find those points - Umineko no naku koro ni and Umineko no naku koro ni Chiru, thank you.

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Thanks for providing a laugh, that's hilarious! Oh my god, Jessica is Battler's sister? Holy shit that's the funniest thing I've heard all day.

You're welcome. Could you by the way point out what is exactly so funny about it?

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

"Miracles don't happen" is the best piece of evidence I've ever heard- Solid, A+ job.

You may joke about this one and I understand that "Miracles don't happen" is not a solid evidence, but did you by any chance skip everything else? Do you think that it's all a coincidence that Natsuhi got pregnant after 11 years just at the time when her position was endangered by Eva?

Originally Posted by Levani

I can't even laugh at this stupidity...

Are you fucking nuts? Jessica is Asumu's daughter? Have you read Umineko? Have you missed the part where the narrative tells you she looks like Natsuhi a lot?

The only one who says that is Rudolf, and Jessica herself doesn't think so.

Originally Posted by Levani

And how the flying fuck would Natsuhi be tricked into believing that Jess is her daughter?

I never said that she believed it. She is the one who set up this fake pregnancy, so obviously she knows the truth.

Originally Posted by Levani

I have an idea where you can find those points - Umineko no naku koro ni and Umineko no naku koro ni Chiru, thank you.

Unfortunately that's where I found my points in the first place, and my big post is about that.

[Levani]

So, what, are you telling me Natsuhi threw a baby that wasn't hers because it disgusted her and then accepted someone else's baby year later anyway?

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by Levani

So, what, are you telling me Natsuhi threw a baby that wasn't hers because it disgusted her and then accepted someone else's baby year later anyway?

When she threw baby from the cliff, she did it spontaneously, without thinking about all the implications and problems that would arise later. What happened then was that Kinzo became infuriated with her, and Eva used this opportunity to make a deal with Kinzo that she will not be erased from family record and her child will become the successor. This whole matter meant that Natsuhi would be kicked out of the family, and the only way for her to fix it would be to become pregnant. So this time she had a long time to sit and think about her future.

[Mr. Dent]

Did it say specifically that there was an exact moment that Eva began talking with Kinzo? Because I'm pretty sure there wasn't. And, if what you're saying is true, Rufolf should have been using Jessica's birth to blackmail Krauss- and yet he uses embezzlement instead.

Also, if what you're saying is true, then Ryukishi must be an awful awful writer, since none of this has any resolution or payoff in any way, shape, or form in Chiru.

Also- Natsuhi being kicked out of the family? There's absolutely no hint of that even being a possibility of happening! Maybe she and Krauss would lose status as Head, but certainly not kicked out!

Of the three mentioned Jessica is the mastermind. In all 4 of original games she fulfills her plan, survives until the end, and leaves the island.
Rosa and Jessica are both Beatrices. The older one and the younger one. They both have lived for a long time on the island, they both were raised without love, and they both have read black magic books in Kinzo's library.
They both dress as Beatrice at different times.
Rosa is Beatrice in classical dress in games 1 and 3.
Jessica is Beatrice in miniskirt in games 2 and 4.

Also, nothing in your theory is based on facts- it's all leaps and bounds of logic! None of this is implied or foreshadowed at all! Beatrice in Classical Dress has never appeared on the gameboard. Why is George the only one capable of killing his mother? And, most importantly, why would Jessica even want to do all this?

And she couldn't be Shannon's accomplice because there is no way in hell how Shannon could persuade her. Threatening her is impossible because Eva can annihilate Shannon with one kick. Bribing her is also impossible because it requires showing her the mountain of gold, and we have all seen what happens when Eva sees that mountain of gold. Again, Shannon's life would be the first on the line.

What do you mean, Shannon couldn't have persuaded Eva? Wouldn't "Ill give you the inheritance, as I am the true heir, and will disappear and no longer be in a relationship with your son if you go along with me as I pretend to conduct a series if murders" while presenting a single ingot be enough? And with Genji's assistance, they sure as hell could have taken down Eva and Hideyoshi, who trusted the both of them.

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!
There is no one hiding in the six rooms!
The six people died instantly!
Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms.
The six people were not killed by traps
None of the six people committed suicide!
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses!
All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!
It is impossible for the murder to have taken place from outside the room!!
I shall say more with the red! When the five other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room!
I already proclaimed in red at the time that there were no suicides!!

That red proof has long since been debunked. (http://heartofthegoldenwitch.tumblr....-on-rokkenjima)

Also, Jessica dressing up Kanon as her corpse is impossible, as "Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!" Not only that, but Battler could see Jessica's face in Ep2.

[Levani]

I bet Maria is also adopted and could possible be George's daughter with Shannon. And I sensed some lesbian vibes from Natsuhi and Eva and they also love each other and have an affair. Yes, this makes sense. They kill everyone together because the world they were living in didn't accept lesbians.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by Levani

I bet Maria is also adopted and could possible be George's daughter with Shannon. And I sensed some lesbian vibes from Natsuhi and Eva and they also love each other and have an affair. Yes, this makes sense. They kill everyone together because the world they were living in didn't accept lesbians.

Congratulations, Levani, YOU SOLVED UMINEKO'S GREATEST RIDDLE! Oh my god, why didn't I see it sooner! Oh my god, this is an epiphanic revelation that will shake the Umineko fanbase forever! WAKE UP, SHEEPLE

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Did it say specifically that there was an exact moment that Eva began talking with Kinzo? Because I'm pretty sure there wasn't.

I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting here. How could Eva do it without talking to Kinzo? There should have been at least one moment when she did it.

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

And, if what you're saying is true, Rufolf should have been using Jessica's birth to blackmail Krauss- and yet he uses embezzlement instead.

He actually says to Battler in the first game before the killings that "I will be killed tonight", and what he meant by that was that he's going to confess to Battler about his birth. And why the hell would he need to confess about it right now, if he's been hiding it for all these years? Naturally if he's going to reveal that Jessica is his daughter to threaten Krauss, then Battler's birth swap would also be revealed.

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Also, if what you're saying is true, then Ryukishi must be an awful awful writer, since none of this has any resolution or payoff in any way, shape, or form in Chiru.

Alternative explanation would be that Ryukishi didn't reveal real truth because he wanted readers to figure it out themselves.

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Also- Natsuhi being kicked out of the family? There's absolutely no hint of that even being a possibility of happening! Maybe she and Krauss would lose status as Head, but certainly not kicked out!

Well, I'm not sure it was explicitly stated that she would be kicked out, but at least Natsuhi herself told on many occasions that she is nothing more than a borrowed womb and her only mission in this family was to raise a successor.

Originally Posted by Levani

I bet Maria is also adopted

Is there any evidence that Maria is adopted?

Originally Posted by Levani

And I sensed some lesbian vibes from Natsuhi and Eva and they also love each other and have an affair.

Is there any evidence that Natsuhi and Eva love each other?

Originally Posted by Levani

They kill everyone together because the world they were living in didn't accept lesbians.

Is there any evidence that the world they were living in didn't accept lesbians?

[Levani]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Congratulations, Levani, YOU SOLVED UMINEKO'S GREATEST RIDDLE! Oh my god, why didn't I see it sooner! Oh my god, this is an epiphanic revelation that will shake the Umineko fanbase forever! WAKE UP, SHEEPLE

Thank you, my kind sir.

Is there any evidence that Maria is adopted?

Is there any evidence that Natsuhi and Eva love each other?

Is there any evidence that the world they were living in didn't accept lesbians?

Oooooh, there are tons of evidence my friend. I forgot to mention a few more, I got them through talking with Ryukishi on Skype and I basically know the answer.

Kumasawa used to be super hot back in her prime and she was bitter than Kinzo didn't like her. And Ryu said that in one episode she made Kumasawa the culprit and told me to solve which, yes.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Is there any evidence that Maria is adopted? Is there any evidence that Natsuhi and Eva love each other? Is there any evidence that the world they were living in didn't accept lesbians?

...dude, are you for real?

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by Levani

Oooooh, there are tons of evidence my friend.

Then why don't you present all this evidence to the court?

Originally Posted by Levani

Kumasawa used to be super hot back in her prime and she was bitter than Kinzo didn't like her. And Ryu said that in one episode she made Kumasawa the culprit and told me to solve which, yes.

It seems you didn't end your thought here.

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

...dude, are you for real?

I just can't resist mocking idiots, sorry.

[Levani]

Ahahahaha, nice one, you little troll, Well done. You have successfully turned the tables, I admit defeat, you're right, Umineko is bullshit and the real truth is hidden very deep.

[Mr. Dent]

Really, I'm curious- what do all these Anti-ShKanontricers want anyway? With the real solution, you get an amazing story with great characters and a memorable message that will stick with the reader- So why does it need to be a puzzle waiting for someone to solve? Why does it need to be a deflated, hole-riddled, ugly story full of lies and red herrings? What's in it for Ryukishi? What is the reader expecting? The one to solve the truth to be visited personally by Ryukishi, who gives them a sparkly shash that proclaims "MISS ROKKENJIMA 2014?" Why would Ryukishi construct a story just to lie to readers?

[Levani]

Because the "plot twist this is bullshit" thing is very interesting to a lot of people in every fandom. Like, for example, we have a fantasy story and plot twist, it's all in someone's head and he's a drug addict.

[Mr. Dent]

It honestly comes off as insulting to the author. "I didn't like his story, but some parts were kind of neat, therefore the story is a hollow fake to distract from the 'real' story- that is, the story I think would have been better."

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

It honestly comes off as insulting to the author. "I didn't like his story, but some parts were kind of neat, therefore the story is a hollow fake to distract from the 'real' story- that is, the story I think would have been better."

Let me fix your impersonation a bit.

I didn't like his solution, because it contradicts all the rules and evidence given by his own story, and also there is a lot of hints that there are multiple layers of truth, paralels with Divine Comedy, without love truth can't be seen, only one in a thousand will understand the truth, and that only in third-rate mystery novels does culprit confess to his crimes and motives, while in good novels it all can be deducted from evidence, therefore the official explanation is a hollow fake to distract from the real story - that is, the story that follows from all of the evidence and rules of the game.

And of course, if there is one word that can fully describe Umineko, it's deception. It's Umineko's main theme. It's a game about deception, and importance of thinking with your own head.
...Battler......! We, ......didn't want to doubt our friends...
We refused to face reality, ...and gave in to the witch......!
But, ...Battler, you won't.........won't,
......give in to the witch......! Geh, ggghh, ......gggggghhkkkkkkk!!!"

[Levani]

You're so full of it that now I'm getting mad. Are you implying you're one in thousands?

And let me tell you one thing, Umineko might be a good mystery novel, but it's by no means as grand and as deceptive as you think. It's time for you to admit that you didn't like the solution instead of making this bullshit up.

Shkannon makes perfect sense. There are no contradictions nor holes, what the heck are you even talking about.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Let me fix your impersonation a bit.

I didn't like his solution, because it contradicts all the rules and evidence given by his own story, and also there is a lot of hints that there are multiple layers of truth, paralels with Divine Comedy, without love truth can't be seen, only one in a thousand will understand the truth, and that only in third-rate mystery novels does culprit confess to his crimes and motives, while in good novels it all can be deducted from evidence, therefore the official explanation is a hollow fake to distract from the real story - that is, the story that follows from all of the evidence and rules of the game.

But the thing is, the truth doesn't contradict any of the rules. The multiple layers of truth weren't literal, but symbolize the difference understanding why actions happen can change how we view a person. Without Love for the characters, you will never understand their actions and why the tragedy occurred. Only one in a thousand has really accepted the truth and understood it- The vast majority didn't understand it, and, rather vocally complained, with a great many of them, including you, making alternate culprit theories. Claire "confesses," but doesn't say why or how as it actually happened, making the reader piece together the truth from her words- something almost nobody bothered to do, instead refusing any hint she might have held. For a story about learning to understand one another, so many people refuse to understand it.

And of course, if there is one word that can fully describe Umineko, it's deception. It's Umineko's main theme. It's a game about deception, and importance of thinking with your own head.

And are you kidding? Deception is the main theme? Are you fucking kidding me? Did we read the same thing? Understanding is the game's theme and was introduced through Kyrie's Chessboard logic way before the murders began! The point isn't to "DESTROY THE DECEPTION," but to "understand why the tragedy has become so obscured." It isn't to destroy the illusion, but to understand why it began in the first place! Deception is absolutely a part of Umineko, but it's not to trick observers. The deceptions are for the victims, allowing them a respite from the reality of their suffering.

If I were you, I'd change your icon from Edgeworth to Erika, because you are one piece of work.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Mali

Hello, long-time lurker here. I thank for the translation of the manga.

I like the alternate solution how Battler and Kanon escaped (and died) from the closed room with respecting the red truths. I would to like some opinions.

E:The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seals. To be even more specific, he had no chance to escape except for the time I was in the bathroom. This means that Erika destroyed at least two seals whose aren't specified.

The seal on the guest room is counted as one and on the windows there are multiple ones. Which seal(s) is destroyed by Erika besides the one on the door and the windows? This gap could be interpreted as an escape....

Erika sealed an entrance to the guest room which she didn't mentioned. After rescuing Battler, Kanon go through it and hide in that place. Kanon is in that place which isn't counted as the guest room. This place is only connected to the guestroom. It's not the hallway.

Of course she hadn't sealed the other side and couldn't rediscover it because it was hid and her map has some mistakes.

That's a fun interpretation. Welcome, glad to have you posting here. I will try to argue against your theory.

We know that at the time Battler was locked in the logic error, "this room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. ......I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door."

So, as long as that red is relevant, the only exit is by the door. If a seal on the windows had been broken, a window could have been another exit.

Originally Posted by Mali

Of course she hadn't sealed the other side and couldn't rediscover it because it was hid and her map has some mistakes.

We have red that "No hidden places that are impossible for Erika-san to find exist inside the guest room." so I'm not sure that is possible.

Originally Posted by Mali

E:The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seals. To be even more specific, he had no chance to escape except for the time I was in the bathroom. This means that Erika destroyed at least two seals whose aren't specified.

In the line in the Japanese, "戦人の脱出のチャンスは、私が封印を破った後のみ" which was translated as "The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seals.", it looks as if the original Japanese line did not specify how many seals were broken - there's nothing there in the sentence which means that there is more than one seal. It just said fuuin. I'd say it was also possible for the line to be translated as a singular "seal".

Originally Posted by Mali

The seal on the guest room is counted as one and on the windows there are multiple ones.

Are they really? I can't find evidence that there was only one seal on the guest room door. Looking at the English translation from the patch, the seals on the guest room door are referred to as "seals".

"Erika dashed down the hallway with a sickening smile and clung to the guest room door like a spider. Then, she closely examined the seals she had placed retroactively."

She was clinging to the door at the time and examining the "seals". Multiple seals.

Of course, the Japanese version, as in the bit I quoted above, does not actually specify whether there was a single "seal" or multiple "seals" on the guest room door. It could be a single seal there, but then again, there's also no reason to suppose that in the Japanese version any more than a single seal was broken.

Therefore! If we are going by the Japanese text, nothing there indicates that the seal which was broken was not a singular seal, or that, if there were multiple seals broken, there were not multiple seals on the door which could be broken. If we go by the English translation patch, the door has multiple seals on it. Furthermore, it is irrelevant because "There is no exit to escape from except for this door."

In addition to that, we can prove in red that Kanon never left the guest room, so it is not possible for him to have left by another exit, even if there had been an exit that Erika had overlooked. "Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left."

Furthermore, there is the red that "I proclaim that the chain lock has been repaired by the duct tape seal and has regained its original functionality. And, thanks to that, I locked the room upon entering it and made this guest room a closed room from the inside once more.". This means that after Erika entered the room, repairing the chain lock caused the room to become a closed room once more. Which means that even if there had been an extra entrance which she had for some reason also broken the seal of when she entered, it must have been fixed again after she entered.

So, in short, there was only one exit, there was no exit which could have been hidden from Erika, the room became a closed room again after Erika repaired the chain lock, and even if there had been another way out, we know that Kanon never used it.

[eX_ploit]

Ok, I just saw that you edited your previous comment.

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Also, nothing in your theory is based on facts- it's all leaps and bounds of logic! None of this is implied or foreshadowed at all! Beatrice in Classical Dress has never appeared on the gameboard.

She did appear in first game to give letter to Maria. Everyone asked Maria how she looked like and Maria told she was the same as on portrait.
And she also appeared in the end before 24:00, and Maria recognized her as Beatrice.
Protrait changing Beatrice's looks from game to game is foreshadowing that there are multiple Beatrices. not to mention meta scenes where literally two Beatrice's walk and talk with each other.

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Why is George the only one capable of killing his mother?

Did you actually read what I wrote there? Because I wrote exactly that. He is the only one on the island who meets all requirements. And the requirements are
1. Being able to be invited to their room.
2. Stay in their room while Hideyoshi goes to shower.
3. Have enough physical strength and skill to kill 2 people with one hit of icepick to the forehead.

What do you mean, Shannon couldn't have persuaded Eva? Wouldn't "Ill give you the inheritance, as I am the true heir, and will disappear and no longer be in a relationship with your son if you go along with me as I pretend to conduct a series if murders" while presenting a single ingot be enough? And with Genji's assistance, they sure as hell could have taken down Eva and Hideyoshi, who trusted the both of them.

Here is a weak point of your argument. The word pretend. Should I remind you that most corpses in the shed were heavily mutilated to the point that anyone looking at them would understand that they are dead?

That red proof has long since been debunked. (http://heartofthegoldenwitch.tumblr....-on-rokkenjima)

I don't see how this is debunked.
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
This means that only humans could kill anybody, and not personalities.
All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!
Personalities can't have fatal gunshot wounds.

Also, Jessica dressing up Kanon as her corpse is impossible, as "Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!"

This refers only to the first game.

Not only that, but Battler could see Jessica's face in Ep2.

When exactly. I can't find that part.

And, most importantly, why would Jessica even want to do all this?

The short answer is - she wants to escape her fate.
For the longer answer I'll need some time.