Hyouka - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by orion

Also, how do we know that Satoshi isn't gay?

Because that isn't the reason he gives, which is basically that any sort of romantic commitment would spoil his new carefree and non-obsessive philosophy. Satoshi seems pretty honest and unafraid to show his true colors, so I don't think he's a closet homosexual.

[lightbringer]

Originally Posted by vansonbee

So basically Satoshi does not want to commit?

After his passionate speech about it, that's basically all I got out of it. In this week's episode: much ado about nothing.

Originally Posted by Aquifina

Chitanda isn't just a nice naive girl--we now know what makes her angry--and somewhat surprisingly, she's something of a hothead when provoked.

It's always the kind and considerate people who are really scary when they finally snap.

[Pen3]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

Yeah, I agree with this. You get a real sense of her strong sense of responsibility in this episode, and the fact that she knows what it means when injustice has been done, and intends to do something about it. This reminds me of the episode where she called out her math teacher for unfairly scolding the class. Chitanda isn't just a nice naive girl--we now know what makes her angry--and somewhat surprisingly, she's something of a hothead when provoked. It's probably fortunate Houtarou prevented her from doing something drastic with bad consequences, especially considering how she needs to hold up her family's reputation.

Also, even *after* she found out the truth, she knew it'd be best to play along--in a way, she ended up outsmarting Houtarou, who had made up the fib to calm her down in the first place. And while lying in a relationship is obviously never the preferred solution, it's clear she understands why Houtarou did what he did, and appreciates his good intentions. I also like how we saw Houtarou get downright angry at Satoshi, because of how he affected Chitanda. I don't know if we've ever seen him so protective of her before.

It still doesn't change the fact that everyone is going to keep the dirty truth from her. Her friends still see her as a child in that matter. Perhaps because she is a hothead and over reacts like you mentioned. Also those matters aren't very serious unlike the part that involved deaths in episode 18. Chitanda couldn't be hotheaded about that matter and get anyone in trouble, but he kept it from her anyways so shes not mentally ready for serious stuff is what i meant.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by Pen3

It still doesn't change the fact that everyone is going to keep the dirty truth from her. Her friends still see her as a child in that matter.

Well, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree when it comes to how to interpret Houtarou's deception, but Mayaka does tell her the truth and apologizes for concealing it earlier.

[Asahi]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

Well, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree when it comes to how to interpret Houtarou's deception, but Mayaka does tell her the truth and apologizes for concealing it earlier.

Same here. Plus how can Houtarou explain everything without ruining Satoshi's image to Chitanda anyway? He can't tell the story to "justify" Satoshi's behavior. In this case, just like Chitada put it, lets just "believe in Oreki".

I love how Chitanda practically confesses to Oreki that she considers him as someone truly close to her. She doesnt want him to misunderstand her not giving him chocolate as her not being interested in him. Of course, Oreki, smart as he is, completely not get it.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

Because that isn't the reason he gives, which is basically that any sort of romantic commitment would spoil his new carefree and non-obsessive philosophy. Satoshi seems pretty honest and unafraid to show his true colors, so I don't think he's a closet homosexual.

Not wanting a relationship could also be a convenient way to hide homosexuality while in high school.

After not accepting the first chocolate gift in middle school, she's an idiot for hanging on so long.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by orion

Not wanting a relationship could also be a convenient way to hide homosexuality while in high school.

But remember the scene where Satoshi makes a big deal to Oreki about how he feels no need to hide how loud his personality is? We are talking about the guy who wore Saturn on his head during the festival arc, after all. If Satoshi was gay, I think he'd be open about it, or at least tell Mayaka about it. He's too smart and introspective a character to not realize something like that.

[Sugarless Ocean]

Really enjoyed the episode. It's awesome I could understand most of what was said in the raws but even after reading the subs on the convo between Houtarou and Satoshi, I just don't get it. God, Satoshi why cause all this drama? You never won at anything and even when you did, it wasn't interesting? You get the girl of your dreams but you reject her because you're afraid of being obsessed and going back to your old self? Don't you realize that the you right now is just faking? Smiling when you're not happy and not even trying to win. You're not ambitious because you're afraid to be? That's just like Oreki! Except now even he's trying harder than you!

*Rant over* I don't think I can watch the last episode and not be upset when Satoshi appears in it unless that phone call at the end gives some sort of hope that he's not as dislikeable as he is right now. (for example, he tells Mayaka how he feels) But whatevs, if that's not the case, I'll just enjoy the OrekixChitanda moments. Which were awesome in this episode btw I like how at the end Oreki eats the chocolate and states that it's bitter which might reflect how he feels about lying to Chitanda. (it might also be how he feels about only getting chocolate from his sister lol) and how both Oreki and Chitanda look away from each other while walking to school. xD


rating: 10/10 because I loved every part of the episode despite the fact that I want to wring Satoshi's neck at the end of it Can't wait for next week... the last episode TT__TT

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by lightbringer

After his passionate speech about it, that's basically all I got out of it. In this week's episode: much ado about nothing.

I figured I'd see a post like this after watching this episode . And like episode 11, I don't agree at all. This episode finally explains why Satoshi and Mayaka's relationship has been the way it was for the last 20 episodes, and as you'd expect, the issue is with Satoshi and some of the inner conflict that has been building up throughout the series but especially in the second half.

I personally think the episode does a good job of touching on Satoshi's insecurities and other small aspects of each character's personality, like how strongly Chitanda empathizes and emotionally reacts to things. As Satoshi-centric as this episode was, I feel as if a lot of Oreki's personality and changes have shown through this episode as well. It really was a great episode, although I feel that I'll have to watch it again to digest it all .

[orion]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

But remember the scene where Satoshi makes a big deal to Oreki about how he feels no need to hide how loud his personality is? We are talking about the guy who wore Saturn on his head during the festival arc, after all. If Satoshi was gay, I think he'd be open about it, or at least tell Mayaka about it. He's too smart and introspective a character to not realize something like that.

But that's different.

http://www.japan-guide.com/forum/que...ay.html?0+4442

[FlareKnight]

I was thinking we'd get more from Satoshi and we finally got it. It was pretty clear from the start that Satoshi probably took the chocolate, but yeah the reasoning was pretty heavy. In the end wasn't happy with his obsessive attitude and thus changed himself to being obsessed with not being obsessed. Though suppose in that respect then he hasn't changed himself at all. Plus I don't think anyone seeing him in the last couple arcs would say he's happy with the current him either.

If there's any positive to gleam from this it's that the problem of Satoshi and Mayaka isn't about feelings. It's not like he's uninterested in her which had been my guess early on. Rather before he can be with anyone he's got to work through his personal issues. He can't seriously keep going like this. Just running away from qualities in himself he doesn't like and in the end it's hurting others around him.

Of course in the end have to think Houtarou is upset with himself for really not understanding Satoshi at all. He never saw what was bubbling under the surface and why he changed.

It was something to see Chitanda so fired up. She was ready to go on a rampage to find that chocolate. From her perspective failing in her responsibility to guard the chocolate had to hurt on top of thinking how much it'd hurt Mayaka.

Glad in the end she was able to cool off. Things getting cleared up to her, but keeping up the pretense of not knowing anything when talking to Houtarou. Sadly for Houtarou only left eating the chocolate bar his sister left . Of course at least the start of the episode was upbeat with Chitanda hinting at why she didn't give him any . God I love watching those two .

Kind of wonder what she told Mayaka though when asked if she had someone she liked. Full admission maybe ?

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by Sugarless Ocean

Really enjoyed the episode. It's awesome I could understand most of what was said in the raws but even after reading the subs on the convo between Houtarou and Satoshi, I just don't get it. God, Satoshi why cause all this drama? You never won at anything and even when you did, it wasn't interesting? You get the girl of your dreams but you reject her because you're afraid of being obsessed and going back to your old self? Don't you realize that the you right now is just faking? Smiling when you're not happy and not even trying to win. You're not ambitious because you're afraid to be? That's just like Oreki! Except now even he's trying harder than you!

*Rant over* I don't think I can watch the last episode and not be upset when Satoshi appears in it unless that phone call at the end gives some sort of hope that he's not as dislikeable as he is right now. (for example, he tells Mayaka how he feels) But whatevs, if that's not the case, I'll just enjoy the OrekixChitanda moments. Which were awesome in this episode btw I like how at the end Oreki eats the chocolate and states that it's bitter which might reflect how he feels about lying to Chitanda. (it might also be how he feels about only getting chocolate from his sister lol) and how both Oreki and Chitanda look away from each other while walking to school. xD


rating: 10/10 because I loved every part of the episode despite the fact that I want to wring Satoshi's neck at the end of it Can't wait for next week... the last episode TT__TT

I'd definitely agree that Satoshi comes off as a real ass in this ep.--far worse than Oreki ever did. It's bizarre how Satoshi has regressed, even as Oreki has progressed, and the two seem connected, since Satoshi is obviously jealous of the latter. But that makes Satoshi look worse--it's almost as if he preferred Oreki to stay in his earlier state of depressed indifference. This all makes his character extremely interesting, but also unlikeable.

[justsomeguy]

Wow, Satoshi, what an ass! So he doesn't want to be obsessed with anything, but he can't make any exceptions or trust his self-control even with a girl he likes? This guy's got issues. I can't really see how the show can be ending on a note like this.

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

I'd definitely agree that Satoshi comes off as a real ass in this ep.--far worse than Oreki ever did. It's bizarre how Satoshi has regressed, even as Oreki has progressed, and the two seem connected, since Satoshi is obviously jealous of the latter. But that makes Satoshi look worse--it's almost as if he preferred Oreki to stay in his earlier state of depressed indifference. This all makes his character extremely interesting, but also unlikeable.

Yes, depressed people are always asses.

He should jump in front of a train, like is tradition, not mess around with the hopes of a girl. Cause we all know walking anything but straight forward is not allowed when it comes to dealing with feelings of love.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by Rakshasa

Yes, depressed people are always asses.

He should jump in front of a train, like is tradition, not mess around with the hopes of a girl. Cause we all know walking anything but straight forward is not allowed when it comes to dealing with feelings of love.

well, errhhhh... jumping in front of a train is NOT a good solution to depression--just another way of running away.

Before we're too hard on Satoshi, the phone call he makes at the end may make amends--I assume we'll get a sense of whether or not that's the case in the next ep.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

well, errhhhh... jumping in front of a train is NOT a good solution to depression--just another way of running away.

Before we're too hard on Satoshi, the phone call he makes at the end may make amends--I assume we'll get a sense of whether or not that's the case in the next ep.

At the very least the phone call seemed like a good sign. Could easily have kept up the pretense and act like nothing happened tomorrow, but instead after that conversation made the call.

Of course maybe it's a terrible sign, but I'd like to hope for the best here .

[orion]

Originally Posted by Rakshasa

Yes, depressed people are always asses.

He should jump in front of a train, like is tradition, not mess around with the hopes of a girl. Cause we all know walking anything but straight forward is not allowed when it comes to dealing with feelings of love.

This jerk isn't depressed. He's basically avoiding being hurt and disappointed.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx8.htm

He's a database because people like him that way and he can't compete with Oreki. He doesn't want to be in a relationship because he can get hurt. He acts carefree because it's the path of least resistance. He basically is turning into another Oreki as Oreki is normalizing.

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

At the very least the phone call seemed like a good sign. Could easily have kept up the pretense and act like nothing happened tomorrow, but instead after that conversation made the call.

Of course maybe it's a terrible sign, but I'd like to hope for the best here .

Seriously, for the call to have made things even worse wouldn't fit the upbeat tone of the rest of the series. It'd be weird if they got too angsty on us in the last two eps. My guess is that the call won't really fix things (i.e. Satoshi saying yes, he'll commit to a relationship with a girl he likes, and stop acting like an ass), but he'll do something like give the same speech to Mayaka he gave to Oreki. It'll be pretty cold comfort, but Mayaka, probably unwisely, will probably be willing to wait some more, and the four will still be able to hang out with each other.

[Silvance]

That was... rather cold of Satoshi. I just hope the next episode will show his conversation on the phone.

What's more unexpected was Chitanda's unusual high sense of responsibility. Not to mention, her facial expression when Oreki stopped her... She looked so devastated.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Aquifina

Seriously, for the call to have made things even worse wouldn't fit the upbeat tone of the rest of the series. It'd be weird if they got too angsty on us in the last two eps. My guess is that the call won't really fix things (i.e. Satoshi saying yes, he'll commit to a relationship with a girl he likes, and stop acting like an ass), but he'll do something like give the same speech to Mayaka he gave to Oreki. It'll be pretty cold comfort, but Mayaka, probably unwisely, will probably be willing to wait some more, and the four will still be able to hang out with each other.

If that's how the call goes I'd be alright with that. The least he can do for Mayaka is clear the air and actually talk to her. I think in that case she can be patient (wasn't ready to give up on him even after this) and wait for Satoshi to figure himself out.

Originally Posted by Silvance

That was... rather cold for Satoshi. What's more unexpected was Chitanda's unusual high sense of responsibility. Not to mention, her facial expression when Oreki stopped her... She looked so devastated.

After the last episode I can't say her sense of responsibility was a surprise. Not to mention seeing how much she pushed herself to sell the copies of Hyouka in the festival arc. As the president of the club she felt a heavy responsibility to get those copies sold. Last episode she felt her family responsibilities and thus couldn't just call for help. Once Chitanda feels responsible she really is the type to take serious action.