2013-05-02, 09:19 | Link #1661 |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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The problem is, this wasn't a 'harem' series when it started but turned into one...... romance with other girls is more like a subplot to move the siblings' relationship dynamics to me, and it didn't even start till v5.
When the author 'force-fit' Kanako into the mix of people 'dere' towards Kyousuke, it became a blatant problem for me. |
2013-05-03, 00:15 | Link #1662 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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However, not calling anything until the last page given this author's obvious enjoyment of pulling the chains of different fan factions.
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2013-05-03, 00:34 | Link #1663 | |
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2013-05-03, 00:52 | Link #1664 |
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I've said this before (back when the first anime season aired in particular), but I personally basically saw this as a "harem" premise (with Kirino as a central member) from early-on, even though the actual "candidates" started adding up in a serious way as it went on. I've always felt that the view that the whole story was just about "sibling relationship dynamics" with no romantic implications was, at best, an incomplete interpretation of what was really being shown. To me, it's sort of like "where there's smoke, there's fire"; people kept trying to view the story as one thing, but the evidence kept adding up the other way as it went along. So I have a little bit of a hard time buying the "the premise changed" or "it wasn't planned" argument. Of course, no LN author necessarily knows how many volumes their story will last, but I do think there's a pretty linear progression between where things started and where things ended up.
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2013-05-03, 00:59 | Link #1665 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
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Yeah, (speculation obviously since he isn't telling) but the way the story reads I think he pretty much had the addition of interesting possibilities mapped out for the most part from the start. So he's set up this massive Jenga situation on purpose. I remain curious to see how he executes the crash (or the winning deconstruction).
I still think having him initially connect with Kuroneko and then "pausing" that path is something that I don't recall seeing too often in this kind of set up.
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2013-05-03, 02:04 | Link #1666 | |
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I totally agree with you that what will be interesting to see is how the pieces fall into place at the end, and particularly just how "conclusive" he decides to make it.
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2013-05-03, 03:53 | Link #1667 | |
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I must also point out that, my judgement is definitely not clouded because I'm against a work on sibling-romance, because I'm not against a work of this sort. I've played my fair share of eroge with sis-ends and I also enjoyed a very old, touching, Korean drama series that openly touched on sibling romance. With regards to 'mis-interpretation', I could say likewise when people are trying to assert that this was meant to be a 'soft-incestuous story' right from the get-go, when some of them haven't read the story from the get-go. Either that, or they too choose to see what they want to see (I'll come back to this point at the end). Anyway. this might not mean a thing, but OreImo was originally a one-shot, so it's totally possible that the plan or direction has changed, especially if it's to capitalize on its popularity to certain groups of audience, given its (later) success in its dating sim franchise. Granted, I agreed on Vexx's point that he had created a set of 'viable options' to take on the romance (sub)plot; aside from Kuro, Ayase is fine, Saori is good, but when suddenly, in the most jarring way, Kanako gets thrown in to strengthen his harem hold, it does create quite a 'WTF is this!?' stir in me. And I've never thought that the premise has changed since all along, I've seen the premise to be about "Kyou-Kiri's relationship", and it pretty much remains at that. What changed for me was how Kyousuke got a harem at an accelerated rate. Well, it's not totally unexpected or unthinkable to have a group of girls falling for Kyou; things like Ayase's setup was pretty much in the pipeline, but why Kanako (this primarily is the basis behind my jab that it has turned into a harem-focused series)? Anyway, can someone explain this (why Kanako) to me? The execution rubbed me off the wrong way and left much to be desired. But anyhow, overall, I still see 'harem/romance' as a subplot and not the main premise. With regards to 'mounting evidence', I hope you are coming from the perspective of someone who has read the novels since volume 1, including the author's afterwords. Most of these 'evidence' I see suggested in this thread with reference to earlier volumes cannot be called 'evidence' imo (like playing Imouto eroge and supposed 'sexual' tension), but merely used for comedic effect (when I read those, what came to my mind was 'www'). It's only in the later volumes, that the evidence can be said to be 'truly mounting', but even so, they are not yet absolute enough to me that I can totally forget about dismissing them as possible pandering or comedy tools. If you are coming from that perspective (as a novel reader), then we can agree to disagree. While I'm sure there are some readers, like VVolf, who are holding the same view as you, there are also quite a number of us who see otherwise, like karice and Undertaker (who are more veteran LN readers than someone like me), among others, though I'm not sure what their current positions are. Like I mentioned, I'm not against a work on brother-sister romance, but for me, when I read the first few volumes, I just don't get the 'feeling' that it will be a story on brother-sister romance. Yes, it's a feeling and I can't explain it. Call it lame or illogical or whatever, but the writing did not sing that tune to me. Back to the topic on choosing the way things are seen by different people. I'm sure we all have a bias as to how we see things, and I can agree that many things you have suggested are valid possibilities. But I would not agree that they can be taken as objective definite proofs and evidences. All in all, we know your view, and you know ours (myself + those on the opposing camp), that's why I stopped repeating myself since hundreds of posts ago, and continue to wait and see. And we just have to wait for v12 to see which of our interpretation is more 'correct'. Or we may never know for sure, depending on how the author chooses to end it. (Looking at the time now, I really regret writing this post, but I'll regret it more if I delete it without posting. It's hard to write a post to bring across my thoughts and without sounding overly offensive. And pardon my English and dis-jointedness since I kept getting interrupted. Hopefully this is the last one I make here till June. Peace.) |
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2013-05-03, 04:01 | Link #1668 |
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Join Date: Feb 2013
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I don't see how this wasn't planned from the start. People seem to think that Ayase's confession isn't justified when actually she had more build up than Kuroneko before Volume 5. So compared to Kuroneko, who had one solid Volume dedicated to her build up, Ayase's build up is more spread out but is definitely not something the author pulled out to make this into a harem joke. I agree that Kanako's build up is a joke though, but it seems like there is space to re-interpret her actions. She could have been trying to mess with the other girls all along without actually having feelings for Kyousuke, ie. she won't do anything at all in Volume 12.
And I disagree on the core of this series being a love-triangle. I see the core of this series being "how everything that has happened in these 2 years affect the relationship between Kyousuke and Kirino." Explains why the novels always have Kyousuke and Kirino only on the cover. |
2013-05-03, 04:16 | Link #1669 | |
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2013-05-03, 04:34 | Link #1670 | |
>_>
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Heavens
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After all, I'm still rooting for the (romantic) sibling relationship to develop and sometimes think to myself "how the heck will it happen, it requires the power of Holy Grail !!! " But, I have a feeling that the story would turn out to be a normal love story, ignoring the 'romantic' sibling relationship *sigh* . . . |
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2013-05-03, 05:23 | Link #1671 | |
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If I say "I always felt that things were heading this way" (which I did at the time, ref. my posts from back then), and they do head that way, then I suppose I could argue that my interpretation ended up being not invalid, since the subsequent events support it. But if you say "I never thought it was heading this way, but the author could easily have changed his plan, so my interpretation earlier was equally right"... then on what basis are we supposed to interpret the story's meaning and the significance of earlier events? If you have to do an ever-increasing amount of downplaying and dismissing, doesn't it make the argument more difficult? If there's an interpretation of the story that connects from start to end and ties everything together on a clear path/direction (granted, we don't know the ending yet, so we can only speculate at this point based on where we're at so far), then don't we have to assume this is the most logical interpretation of the author's underlying intent? If the alternative is "the intent was one thing at first, but it changed", isn't the burden of proof that much higher? (Unless you take the view that "we can never know the intent" (unless the author tells us specifically), and then a lot of analysis potential is closed off.) Of course opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to their own. But when it comes to interpreting a work's essential themes and central elements, I think we can't just rely on personal opinion. The evidence is in the work itself; you have to prove it in the text. But obviously, such proofs will ultimately have to wait until the final volume is released (although even then, I strongly suspect a lot will be left open to interpretation, so this is an argument that may never be won). I didn't mean my comment as a sort of personal attack against you or anyone else, and I wasn't trying to imply that the way you interpreted the story at first was invalid, even though my gut/instinct/guess was different at the time. But I do think that, looking back now, it seems to me that a picture is forming that connects everything together. But we'll just have to wait to see how things end.
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2013-05-03, 06:58 | Link #1672 | |
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2013-05-03, 11:18 | Link #1673 | |
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Of course, to go back to the point mentioned earlier, who knew that they'd try to pass all the heroines including Kanako as a "serious candidate", but I feel like that's a bit of comedy of excess as they get towards the end. It just puts that much more impetus on Kyousuke finally making a decision, and muddies the waters a bit more for "shippers". So maybe it is just my bias that read something more into the story than was clear/intended at first, but I just always felt like it was that sort of story. *shrug*
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-05-03 at 23:31. |
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2013-05-04, 11:53 | Link #1676 | |
Crazy Devout Fanboy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 1st Ra Cailum-class battleship Ra Cailum, port-side officer's bunks
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Not that I'm complaining. I'd definitely love to wait less time rather than more for this ending. I'm still rooting for KyousukexAyase, but it's hard to tell which way it's going to go.
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2013-05-04, 18:32 | Link #1678 | |
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Age: 41
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In terms of cutting decisions, I'd say this was a good one. The episode has a very nice flow (the date, the inference of the boyfriend, and the discovery of the boyfriend). It's hard to think of a better way to end the episode, IMO.
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2013-05-05, 00:50 | Link #1680 | |
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comedy, harem, romance, shounen, siblings |
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