AnimeSuki Forums

BBOvenGuy · 2021-10-01, 01:11

I put her at 8 originally, which would make her 14 now. But honestly, I didn't give it much thought. The artistic style isn't the most realistic in the world, and I've seen lots of anime series with teen girl protagonists who are much smaller than they realistically should be. I took what was presented and rolled with it.

Guardian Enzo · 2021-10-01, 01:14

Why have Tokuno call attention to it, then?

Kaoru Chujo · 2021-10-02, 13:34

I'm glad I'm not too familiar with the original story. To me, this anime is outstanding. I was slightly lost at first, but Wikipedia gave me all I needed. I think reading an original work after you've seen the anime can work.

The look is wonderful, the animation pleasing, the character design lovely, the music good, and the OP and ED excellent (bland consistency is overrated, for me).

And the voice acting is superb: Ao-chan does her usual virtuouso over-the-top job, and Genda Tesshou (who appears in many, many shounen shows I don't watch) goes over the top with her to create a bizarre and memorable Kiyomori (head of the Heike clan). Sakurai Takahiro is so smooth as Shigemori (Biwa's protector). But it's the soft and liquid beauty of Hayami Saori's voice as Tokuko that really captivates me. And the boss's wife (Tokiko) is played by Inoue Kikuko, who also plays the friendly courtesan Giou.

I didn't know about this studio, Science Saru ("Science Monkey"?) and its efficient "digitally assisted animation" technique of hand-drawing key animation and using software to fill in. I thought that was somewhat normal, but maybe they do it more.

In any case, it sure works for me. There is one scene in ep2 (at 4:27) where Tokuko reaches down and fiddles with her bare toes: I have never seen such a fleshly and natural feeling conveyed. And the spare way they do facial features still contrives to convey subtle feelings.

I'm impressed with the whole thing, for which I guess I must give credit to Yamada Naoko. This seems so far from K-On, Hibike Euphonium and Violet Evergarden, which she also directed. The classical setting is (just barely) in Heian times, which is always a plus for me.

They have a dependable pro as lead writer in Yoshida Reiko; perhaps she brings as much clarity as is possible to the multiple characters, many dressed alike, with names resembling each other, and with the story compressed in time. I think Biwa doesn't change because she is meant to be a magical character, somehow sitting outside the story, an observer, maybe even us.

Anyway, I've just had a great feast of the first three episodes. Now for a small banquet every week.

By the way, Yuuki Aoi is in 16 TV anime this year, with important roles in nine of them. I counted up on Japanese Wikipedia and she has had a total of 513 roles (counting sequels) in anime and games since she began as a child in Kino no Tabi (2003) and Aishiteruze Baby (2004).

Question: Haak quoted Nachtwandler implying that something bad had happened to Yamada Naoko. What was that?

SeijiSensei · 2021-10-09, 10:57

I, too, was surprised to see Biwa had not visually aged in six years. Of course, her clothes don't help, but she was still as flat at sixteen as she was at ten?

By the way, does Aoi sing Biwa's parts or do they use a professional? Aoi has a decent voice, but not I suspect as compelling as the woman who sang in this episode.

Blaat · 2021-10-09, 11:48

At this point I'm just assuming Biwa has dwarfism which is not something you see in anime at all.

Kaoru Chujo · 2021-10-09, 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I, too, was surprised to see Biwa had not visually aged in six years. Of course, her clothes don't help, but she was still as flat at sixteen as she was at ten?

By the way, does Aoi sing Biwa's parts or do they use a professional? Aoi has a decent voice, but not I suspect as compelling as the woman who sang in this episode.

There is no on-screen credit for the biwa/traditional singing except for a credit for "biwa supervision" (Gotou Yukihiro 後藤幸浩 last.fm profile), who appears to be a top hand and popular player. I suspect Pony Canyon and the music director (Ushio Kensuke) and Gotou-sensei got in an expert to do the singing. Doesn't sound like Ao-chan's voice, even skill aside.
_______________________

As for Biwa's size, I think we just have to recognize her as a magical character, dropped into the story almost like a Greek chorus to be us observing the terrible action unfolding around her.

Excellent anime.

BBOvenGuy · 2021-10-09, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaat

At this point I'm just assuming Biwa has dwarfism which is not something you see in anime at all.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it "dwarfism," but yeah, I think she's just short and not very curvy, and the anime style has exaggerated it. You see it with Kaos-chan in Comic Girls, Komari in Non Non Biyori, and many, many more.

BBOvenGuy · 2021-10-14, 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

By the way, does Aoi sing Biwa's parts or do they use a professional? Aoi has a decent voice, but not I suspect as compelling as the woman who sang in this episode.

If you go back to the first ED for So I'm a Spider, So What?, there's a passage in the middle where she sings about imagining herself reincarnating as a beautiful magical girl, and not as a spider. It sounds a bit like Biwa's singing voice, enough for me to believe it's the same person.

SeijiSensei · 2021-10-18, 08:37

I rewatched the entire series through episode five last night. My God, this is beautifully illustrated. Biwa's unchanging appearance is mentioned by other characters a number of times over the episodes. Apparently that, and her eyes, qualifies her as a "bakeneko."

The score for episode five was entirely unexpected after listening to the previous four episodes. The composer is Ushio Kensuke who also wrote the music for 2009's Boogiepop remake, Ping Pong, and other well-known series and movies. The clanging battlefield music was so powerful and so unlike most of the music in this series so far.

Kakkou · 2021-10-18, 10:36

It is most definitely Yuki Aoi singing as Biwa every episode. The tone of her voice is still recognisable and if they had gotten someone else to do those parts they'd get a mention in the credits cause it'd be a dick move not to, and there isn't such a credit.

iko_uwais · 2021-10-18, 18:57

A bit OOT, but I'm reminded of a manga about the Minamoto-Taira conflict called Shanaou Yoshitsune. Has anyone read it? The manga actually shows the Minamoto as not being exactly squeaky clean in terms of morality, while showing that the Taira is not without honor or love, as well.

Guardian Enzo · 2021-10-18, 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by iko_uwais

A bit OOT, but I'm reminded of a manga about the Minamoto-Taira conflict called Shanaou Yoshitsune. Has anyone read it? The manga actually shows the Minamoto as not being exactly squeaky clean in terms of morality, while showing that the Taira is not without honor or love, as well.

So does the original Heiki Monogatari...

None of these great clans (principally at the time Fujiwara, Taira, and Minamoto) were uniformly good or evil. Each had good people and bad people, and each did good and bad things. And all three were fundamentally interested in one thing - power. That being lost in this adaptation is one of the things I really regret.

iko_uwais · 2021-10-18, 20:58

^Yeah, especially seeing how Yoshitsune was treated by his brother after fighting so valiantly for him, really shows how power can change people.

Also, Shanaou Yoshitsune has a alternate historical bent to it. In this case,

Spoiler for plot:

Anyway, if anyone want to check it out Shanaou Yoshitsu, I recommend you do so. It's good but also quite large in scope. Shanaou Yoshitsune (22 volumes) covers the period before Genpei War, while the sequel Shanaou Yoshitsune: Genpei no Kassen (29 volumes) as indicated by the title, covers the actual Genpei War.

BBOvenGuy · 2021-11-11, 01:28

Last week, one review of this show suggested that Biwa is effectively the "title character" of Heike Monogatari. That is to say, she embodies the story of the Heike itself - which, among other things, explains why she doesn't age. And that was before this week's episode, where she decides to devote herself to telling that very story.

And what a magnificent episode it was, too. I may read the book eventually, and if I do, I will care about it then. For now, this is all I know, and I like it.

Kaoru Chujo · 2021-11-14, 21:29

For me, this is the best anime of the season. The only one I'm still watching, in fact. The animation. The story and characters. The music.

And Yuuki Aoi. A god-level seiyuu. She can do it all. And if @Kakkou and @BBOvenGuy are right and it's her doing the classical singing -- and they may well be -- she's more talented than even I thought.

As the story continues, I think we see the mixture of good and bad on all sides of the power struggle.

For me, this show is a work of dramatic art, evolving in interesting ways around its central character, who is herself evolving.

Cloudedmind · 2021-11-23, 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Last week, one review of this show suggested that Biwa is effectively the "title character" of Heike Monogatari. That is to say, she embodies the story of the Heike itself - which, among other things, explains why she doesn't age. And that was before this week's episode, where she decides to devote herself to telling that very story.

And what a magnificent episode it was, too. I may read the book eventually, and if I do, I will care about it then. For now, this is all I know, and I like it.

I'm in agreement. I finally got around to marathoning this, and I've found it superb all around. The last few episodes especially got to me.

Ghostfriendly · 2022-02-23, 20:16

An excellent series with beautiful animation, music and character drama. An eleven-ep Game of Thrones is quite a rush, with a host of briefly sketched characters, but good historical dramas are like icebergs. A far greater mass and weight than we immediately see; an authority of authenticity that artificial fantasies like Ranking of Kings rarely possess. While the original Tale of the Heike was historical semi-fiction, the adaption at least avoids romanticising vicious practises by sugar-coating the past, as Taisho Otome Romance unforgivably does.

Characters are typed, but not entirely typical. Kiyomori shows real sadness at Shigemori's death, Shirakawa, normally a jolly old man, can be as vicious as Kiyomori, and Tokuko, the ideally submissive noble wife, defies her parents over entering Shirakawa's household. These apparent inconsistencies faintly reflect the real humans so elevated by power and privilege that they could 'live life without a single regret', that is, be as selfish and wilful as they wished. As for Atsumori, I pretty much fell in love with the guy; I loved the series all round.

2021-10-02, 13:34	Link #23
Kaoru Chujo Yuuki Aoi Join Date: Jul 2004	I'm glad I'm not too familiar with the original story. To me, this anime is outstanding. I was slightly lost at first, but Wikipedia gave me all I needed. I think reading an original work after you've seen the anime can work. The look is wonderful, the animation pleasing, the character design lovely, the music good, and the OP and ED excellent (bland consistency is overrated, for me). And the voice acting is superb: Ao-chan does her usual virtuouso over-the-top job, and Genda Tesshou (who appears in many, many shounen shows I don't watch) goes over the top with her to create a bizarre and memorable Kiyomori (head of the Heike clan). Sakurai Takahiro is so smooth as Shigemori (Biwa's protector). But it's the soft and liquid beauty of Hayami Saori's voice as Tokuko that really captivates me. And the boss's wife (Tokiko) is played by Inoue Kikuko, who also plays the friendly courtesan Giou. I didn't know about this studio, Science Saru ("Science Monkey"?) and its efficient "digitally assisted animation" technique of hand-drawing key animation and using software to fill in. I thought that was somewhat normal, but maybe they do it more. In any case, it sure works for me. There is one scene in ep2 (at 4:27) where Tokuko reaches down and fiddles with her bare toes: I have never seen such a fleshly and natural feeling conveyed. And the spare way they do facial features still contrives to convey subtle feelings. I'm impressed with the whole thing, for which I guess I must give credit to Yamada Naoko. This seems so far from K-On, Hibike Euphonium and Violet Evergarden, which she also directed. The classical setting is (just barely) in Heian times, which is always a plus for me. They have a dependable pro as lead writer in Yoshida Reiko; perhaps she brings as much clarity as is possible to the multiple characters, many dressed alike, with names resembling each other, and with the story compressed in time. I think Biwa doesn't change because she is meant to be a magical character, somehow sitting outside the story, an observer, maybe even us. Anyway, I've just had a great feast of the first three episodes. Now for a small banquet every week. By the way, Yuuki Aoi is in 16 TV anime this year, with important roles in nine of them. I counted up on Japanese Wikipedia and she has had a total of 513 roles (counting sequels) in anime and games since she began as a child in Kino no Tabi (2003) and Aishiteruze Baby (2004). Question: Haak quoted Nachtwandler implying that something bad had happened to Yamada Naoko. What was that? __________________ YUUKI Aoi 悠木碧. b92.03.27 (age 29). 2008 Kurenai (Murasaki). 2009 Yumeiro Pâtissière (Ichigo), Kiruminzuu (Riko), Yutori-chan (Yutori-chan). 2010 Vampire Bund (Mina Tepeş), Shiki (Sunako), Samurai Girls (Juubee), Pokémon: Black and White (Iris). 2011 Madoka Magica (Madoka), Gosick (Victorique), A-Channel (Tooru). 2012 Symphogear (Hibiki). 2014 Pilot's Love Song (Claire/Nina), Nanatsu no Taizai (Diane). 2015 Owari no Seraph (Krul Tepes), Rokka no Yuusha (Fremy). 2016 Boku no Hero Academia (Tsuyu, Froppy). 2017 Kino no Tabi (Kino). 2021 Kumo desu ga (watashi), Kaizoku Oujo (Karin), Heike Monogatari (Biwa), etc., etc. Total of 513 roles in anime and games. Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2021-10-02 at 14:20.

2021-10-09, 10:57	Link #24
SeijiSensei AS Oji-kun Join Date: Nov 2006 Age: 74	I, too, was surprised to see Biwa had not visually aged in six years. Of course, her clothes don't help, but she was still as flat at sixteen as she was at ten? By the way, does Aoi sing Biwa's parts or do they use a professional? Aoi has a decent voice, but not I suspect as compelling as the woman who sang in this episode. __________________ Taking Anime Seriously - Politics by the Numbers - Sports by the Numbers - MAL List - Avatars - Images

2021-10-09, 11:48	Link #25
Blaat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004	At this point I'm just assuming Biwa has dwarfism which is not something you see in anime at all. __________________ MyAnimeList

2021-10-18, 08:37	Link #29
SeijiSensei AS Oji-kun Join Date: Nov 2006 Age: 74	I rewatched the entire series through episode five last night. My God, this is beautifully illustrated. Biwa's unchanging appearance is mentioned by other characters a number of times over the episodes. Apparently that, and her eyes, qualifies her as a "bakeneko." The score for episode five was entirely unexpected after listening to the previous four episodes. The composer is Ushio Kensuke who also wrote the music for 2009's Boogiepop remake, Ping Pong, and other well-known series and movies. The clanging battlefield music was so powerful and so unlike most of the music in this series so far. __________________ Taking Anime Seriously - Politics by the Numbers - Sports by the Numbers - MAL List - Avatars - Images

2021-10-18, 20:58	Link #33
iko_uwais Senior Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Indonesia	^Yeah, especially seeing how Yoshitsune was treated by his brother after fighting so valiantly for him, really shows how power can change people. Also, Shanaou Yoshitsune has a alternate historical bent to it. In this case, Spoiler for plot: the protagonist isn't actually Yoshitsune. His name is Hyouta, a traveling orphan who earn his living on the street and looks exactly like Yoshitsune. While Yoshitsune was actually a weak, sickly boy. Being physically stronger, Hyouta was led to become a replacement for Yoshitsune, eventually claiming the name as his own. Anyway, if anyone want to check it out Shanaou Yoshitsu, I recommend you do so. It's good but also quite large in scope. Shanaou Yoshitsune (22 volumes) covers the period before Genpei War, while the sequel Shanaou Yoshitsune: Genpei no Kassen (29 volumes) as indicated by the title, covers the actual Genpei War. Last edited by iko_uwais; 2021-10-18 at 22:51.

2021-10-01, 01:11	Link #21
BBOvenGuy Math Ninja Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Ventura County CA Age: 59	I put her at 8 originally, which would make her 14 now. But honestly, I didn't give it much thought. The artistic style isn't the most realistic in the world, and I've seen lots of anime series with teen girl protagonists who are much smaller than they realistically should be. I took what was presented and rolled with it.

2021-10-18, 10:36	Link #30
Kakkou Tch. Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Australia	It is most definitely Yuki Aoi singing as Biwa every episode. The tone of her voice is still recognisable and if they had gotten someone else to do those parts they'd get a mention in the credits cause it'd be a dick move not to, and there isn't such a credit.

2021-10-18, 18:57	Link #31
iko_uwais Senior Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Indonesia	A bit OOT, but I'm reminded of a manga about the Minamoto-Taira conflict called Shanaou Yoshitsune. Has anyone read it? The manga actually shows the Minamoto as not being exactly squeaky clean in terms of morality, while showing that the Taira is not without honor or love, as well.

2021-11-11, 01:28	Link #34
BBOvenGuy Math Ninja Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Ventura County CA Age: 59	Last week, one review of this show suggested that Biwa is effectively the "title character" of Heike Monogatari. That is to say, she embodies the story of the Heike itself - which, among other things, explains why she doesn't age. And that was before this week's episode, where she decides to devote herself to telling that very story. And what a magnificent episode it was, too. I may read the book eventually, and if I do, I will care about it then. For now, this is all I know, and I like it.

2021-11-14, 21:29	Link #35
Kaoru Chujo Yuuki Aoi Join Date: Jul 2004	For me, this is the best anime of the season. The only one I'm still watching, in fact. The animation. The story and characters. The music. And Yuuki Aoi. A god-level seiyuu. She can do it all. And if @Kakkou and @BBOvenGuy are right and it's her doing the classical singing -- and they may well be -- she's more talented than even I thought. As the story continues, I think we see the mixture of good and bad on all sides of the power struggle. For me, this show is a work of dramatic art, evolving in interesting ways around its central character, who is herself evolving. __________________ YUUKI Aoi 悠木碧. b92.03.27 (age 29). 2008 Kurenai (Murasaki). 2009 Yumeiro Pâtissière (Ichigo), Kiruminzuu (Riko), Yutori-chan (Yutori-chan). 2010 Vampire Bund (Mina Tepeş), Shiki (Sunako), Samurai Girls (Juubee), Pokémon: Black and White (Iris). 2011 Madoka Magica (Madoka), Gosick (Victorique), A-Channel (Tooru). 2012 Symphogear (Hibiki). 2014 Pilot's Love Song (Claire/Nina), Nanatsu no Taizai (Diane). 2015 Owari no Seraph (Krul Tepes), Rokka no Yuusha (Fremy). 2016 Boku no Hero Academia (Tsuyu, Froppy). 2017 Kino no Tabi (Kino). 2021 Kumo desu ga (watashi), Kaizoku Oujo (Karin), Heike Monogatari (Biwa), etc., etc. Total of 513 roles in anime and games. Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2021-11-14 at 21:41.

2022-02-23, 20:16	Link #37
Ghostfriendly Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008	An excellent series with beautiful animation, music and character drama. An eleven-ep Game of Thrones is quite a rush, with a host of briefly sketched characters, but good historical dramas are like icebergs. A far greater mass and weight than we immediately see; an authority of authenticity that artificial fantasies like Ranking of Kings rarely possess. While the original Tale of the Heike was historical semi-fiction, the adaption at least avoids romanticising vicious practises by sugar-coating the past, as Taisho Otome Romance unforgivably does. Characters are typed, but not entirely typical. Kiyomori shows real sadness at Shigemori's death, Shirakawa, normally a jolly old man, can be as vicious as Kiyomori, and Tokuko, the ideally submissive noble wife, defies her parents over entering Shirakawa's household. These apparent inconsistencies faintly reflect the real humans so elevated by power and privilege that they could 'live life without a single regret', that is, be as selfish and wilful as they wished. As for Atsumori, I pretty much fell in love with the guy; I loved the series all round.