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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 791 63.74%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 163 13.13%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 95 7.66%
7 out of 10 : Good 67 5.40%
6 out of 10 : Average 17 1.37%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 18 1.45%
4 out of 10 : Poor 7 0.56%
3 out of 10 : Bad 7 0.56%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 4 0.32%
1 out of 10 : Painful 72 5.80%
Voters: 1241. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-09-30, 07:17   Link #3241
pokeu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Above is fairly obvious. Note also your remark about dark eye shadows been a sign of death. Immortals never recieve dark eye shadows when they are killed, as seen in previous instances of C.C. and V.V.'s deaths. Charles did not have dark eye shadows upon shooting himself either.



No evidence supporting this whatsoever. As has been earlier explained, Charles was shown to be immune to geass before he died. The animation used when Lelouch's geass was entering Charles' eyes before he shot himself was explicitly reused later in the episode when Lelouch tried to geass him again upon realizing he was immortal.



To complete the Ragnorok Connection. This was stated flat out in Turn 21.



Heh.



This fact discourages the 'Code Geass" theory. If Codes do not require a 'signature' to transfer, i.e. some sort of marker which would indicate that the Code matches with a geass's contractor, such that Codes are generically inheritable to any geass, then there is no logical reason why inheriting a Code from another contractor would not eliminate your geass.



She would, however, have to lose her memories. This would be true in Charles' case too. In both cases, it didn't happepn.



There's actually no proof for this statement. Dual geass eyes are not sufficient to complete the inheritance, as we saw in the case of Mao.



Her only resistance was some physical interference. Charles would likely have continued without her cooperation had Lelouch not destroyed the Sword of Akasha.



No. If he had done this they would have shown it. Note also that Marianne dies at the same time as Charles--this indicates both that it was Jupiter that killed them, not Lelouch, and that Charles' death had nothing to do with his Code.



True.



Refuted above.



Here's a question. Why is Kallen happy? The man she loved is dead. Someone she'd been willing to die for. Could it be that she'd found something to live for? That she appreciated Lelouch's sacrifice for the world? Maybe she was looking forward to tomorrow. That sounds like it'd be what Lelouch wanted, doesn't it? That sound's pretty likely to be true.

Hm...well, in that case... So then--maybe, just maybe--couldn't that be the same for C.C.? Shocking, I know, isn't it?!

But actually, to end this:



Hahaha, you (and so many others) wish. The truth is, plot holes in this show though there may be, there are none as to Lelouch's death. The ending is perfectly unambiguous. Here, a present for you:

Spoiler for cart driver:


This is a zoomed in pic of your beloved wagondriver-chan. I printscreened it myself from my copy of Turn 25, but I really encourage you guys to all go check. The first thing I'd like to point out to you all is that wagondriver-chan is not masked at all. Sure he's wearing a pretty spiffy hat, but as you can clearly see the line for his mouth, you'll realize that there's nothing at all covering his face.

The second thing, then, is something you should really be able to pick up following from that. Wagondriver has whiskers! White ones at that. Nice, scruffy, old-guy whiskers all over his firm jaw and manly chin. Ooh I wonder, what could that mean?

So sorry, guys. That man is not Lelouch. If it brings you any consolation, though, I'll totally support this new C.C. x Old Peasant Dude from the Countryside for all eternity pairing if you guys decide that's really what she needs for happiness.

Ah, I'll address this briefly as well:



Now, now, wingdarkness. :P We needn't cling to hope which isn't there. Although I don't quite appreciate the way you're disparaging Suzaku's competence and capabilities, the real issue here is that all of you complaining on the grounds of politics have missed the big picture. Charles said it in 21: "Ultimately, good will and ill will are two sides of the same card." Schniezel asked correctly in 24: "You, who have continually denied people their will, have come here to approve of people's will and existance?" What Lelouch believes in isn't world peace or harmony. What he believes is that tomorrow will be better than today, because it is driven forward by people's desire to seek happiness. As such, he--who has caused many tragedies, and gotten where he is, only through enforcing his will over others--removed himself, so that everybody could move forward on their own two feet, without his good will and ill will to bind them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
:P If you're going to say that, then please provide said evidence.



Alone, perhaps; on the run, no. As for C.C. not crying, you might want to consider the scene where she's praying for Lelouch and talking about him atoning for his sins during his death. Given this, it is much more plausible to attribute C.C.'s happiness to vaguely the same cause as Kallen's.



Heh, well no, of course I can't go around forcing my opinion on everyone. What I can do, however, is go around expressing my opinion on their opinions, and force them to actually back them up. Since, as far as I'm concerned, I've never felt it was one bit ambiguous that Lelouch was dead, and I've only even watched through the whole episode once--that is how weak all the "Lelouch is alive" speculation has been thus far.



Damn straight, I loved the ending. Totally redeemed Lelouch's character for me. Precisely why I'm going to take a bit of time to stop people from blindly turning him into a douchebag.



Are you kidding me? C.C. wasn't even dead in that shot. She's sitting up, her eyes are closed, and there are no gray shadows. The fact remains, all characters who have recieved gray shadows under their eyes have died, and no (still immortal) immortal has ever been shown with those shadows.



Actually bother to read the evidence. As I said, the same animation was shown twice for Charles recieving Lelouch's geass that episode--once before he died, and once after. In both cases, the geass failed.



Indeed, plot rubbish. There are probably vague explanations offered within the show, but nonetheless this is irrelevant to whether Lelouch is alive or dead.



This was in response to some earlier posted theories as to how Lelouch could 'supposedly' have both a Code and Geass at the same time. Glad we agree its bollux.



V.V. says "I will take on that fate...the fate of immortality." Given that he'd been immortal for some 50 odd years already, it's clear that his memories had been reverted.



C.C. wasn't interested in killing her contractor either. Regardless, given that the generally proposed theory is that Lelouch obtained Charle's Code within approximately five minutes of reaching dual Geass, his actual capacity to do so is more than questionable.



Heh, sure whatever. This isn't particularly relevant to my point anyway.



For fun? Certainly. Unless you are trying to imply that Charles was trying to give Lelouch his Code Let's see you try to explain that one.



What? No. Who ever said C.C. had planned it? C.C.'s last line obviously reflects a betrayal of her expectations (that geass would make Lelouch lonely), so obviously it wasn't "just as planned".



Indeed, Geass leaves many things unexplained. One thing it doesn't leave unexplained, however, is that Lelouch is dead. Listen: 'plotholes' are unintentional. This means they were neither planned by the authors nor expected to affect disparate parts of the plot. All pro "Lelouch got a Code" speculation has relied exclusively on unintended interpretations of scenes, many of which aren't so open ended as people think they are. The fact that "Lelouch is alive" interpretations rely exclusively on these plotholes,means that they are completely non-canon.



Heh, so you don't even care about what has defined Lelouch's entire character? I wonder why you're even bothering to argue he's alive, then.



Figure this one out yourself, since it was explicitly stated Suzaku's apparent death was a requirement for Zero Requiem. Regardless, this is completely irrelevant to Code Geass' schema for actual, permanent death scenes, where a character recieves several minutes of touching dialogue while having dark shadows under their eyes.



Heh, what? This isn't even comprehensible.



Heh, what's an old man gonna do to her? She's immortal, remember?



Don't worry, I've had the HD version from the start. That white spot is clearly the collar

Spoiler for here:


as seen in my previous picture. What is even your point in bringing that up, though? We have already established that the wagon driver is some old guy with white whiskers, not Lelouch.

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Old 2008-09-30, 07:19   Link #3242
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Originally Posted by pokeu View Post
uhm what was the picture for again?
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:20   Link #3243
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post

as seen in my previous picture. What is even your point in bringing that up, though? We have already established that the wagon driver is some old guy with white whiskers, not Lelouch.
It's easy for him to disguise himself as a old man if he wants. (already forgotten what sayoko used to look like lelouch?)

And given the screenshot I am not sure it's an old guy.

Plus, me I believe in the theory that he was resurrected by the gods the day after his death, because I still think he geassed them, by saying to them "I desire tomorrow/a future". If the gods can kill an immortal, they can resurrect a person. You will disagree, but me I believe in that :O

Quote:
There's actually no proof for this statement
In some cases, no proof doesn't mean that it didn't happen or that you're obviously right Mister.

Last edited by Narona; 2008-09-30 at 07:37.
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:21   Link #3244
tzia_n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Kanon of the Kounterattack.
hey that makes 3 k's good job
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:23   Link #3245
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I'm kind of amazed people are doubting lelouch is dead. As far as I see it if he didn't die then the ending loses its meaning and "power". After watching the last ep I had no doubt he had died.
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:23   Link #3246
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by don1235 View Post
The rulers of other chunk do not have to vote with Lelouch. They can find their own path.
Unless Lelouch geasses them. Or else, they vote against him, and it inconveniences him. Or maybe they'll vote like him because they see the wisdom... and he'll be accused of having geassed them anyway.

Quote:
Besides more than half of Britainia territory are colonised areas. They don't have pride in Britiania. After the breakup of Britainia, the true part of Britainia will join as a full member with full privilege and right.
That really depends on how many are "true Britanians".

Quote:
Also since Britiania is used to be ruled by nobles, there is no one to organise resistance to Leluoch even if they object. Notice that Britainia ( Beside the KNight of Round) supports Leluoch after he geass all the important nobles.
Ougi the school teacher rose to head the rebellion. There's always someone.
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:24   Link #3247
tzia_n
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
It's easy for him to disguise himself as a old man if he wants. (already forgotten what sayoko used to look like lelouch?)

And given the screenshot I am not sure it's an old guy.
and he has the physical fitness of an old guy to boot
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:27   Link #3248
pokeu
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and he has the physical fitness of an old guy to boot
=D, you win.
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:27   Link #3249
tzia_n
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Originally Posted by Eric10301 View Post
I'm kind of amazed people are doubting lelouch is dead. As far as I see it if he didn't die then the ending loses its meaning and "power". After watching the last ep I had no doubt he had died.
it's actually as simple as things have been left ambiguously such that it can go either way. and no, if he didn't really die, story-wise he'd still achieve what he wanted since emperor lelouch dies by zero's hands. but audience-wise the impact may be lessened, at the same time his fans would rejoice he's alive
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:31   Link #3250
don1235
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Further even without joining the UFN, he can make peace and promote understanding with individual nations through Cultural exchange programs, trade agreements, peace treaties and financial assistance can be used as tools. Even if they don’t trust you, try again and again for, say 30 years (BUT THIS IS CODE GEASS SO THERE MUST BE WAR NOT SILLY Negotiations).

From what I know many individual nations have a good impression on him. China and Japan isn't the whole of UFN. By engaging in war he caused the death of many people, which is ridiculous.

The point wasn't everlasting peace - to give people a fresh start. Well, I think that
with his father Charles' death, he already have the fresh start. Afterall Charles has been the one to cause so much suffering. So his actions were redundant.


Maybe... If Schneizel hadn't been there.

Schneizel only have Damocles. Leluoch and the UFN could have hunted that down. Assuming that Leluoch didn't take the UFN representative hostage, when Pendagon was destroyed, public opinion and many members of UFN would have swung to Leluoch. If Karugya and China rejects Leluoch's appeal for aid, public opinion will turn against them. They will be seen as siding with Schneizel, a mass murderer, unaffordable for a democratic leader in a democratic country.
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:35   Link #3251
kir44n
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Kanon of the Kounterattack.
YES! Kanon will become a new villain to avenge his mind controlled friend/lover Schniezel! He will go mad from the grief and attempt to take control of the world over from Zerozaku! Whahahahaha.

But seriously, How in the world will Kanon take the new turn of events for the world? Its all for the worlds sake....but Schneizel is sort of a puppet, really.
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:38   Link #3252
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by don1235 View Post
Schneizel only have Damocles. Leluoch and the UFN could have hunted that down. Assuming that Leluoch didn't take the UFN representative hostage, when Pendagon was destroyed, public opinion and many members of UFN would have swung to Leluoch. If Karugya and China rejects Leluoch's appeal for aid, public opinion will turn against them. They will be seen as siding with Schneizel, a mass murderer, unaffordable for a democratic leader in a democratic country.
And maybe if Lelouch hadn't taken the world leaders hostage, Schneizel wouldn't have nuked Pendragon, but found some other way to oppose him.
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:41   Link #3253
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Originally Posted by kir44n View Post
YES! Kanon will become a new villain to avenge his mind controlled friend/lover Schniezel! He will go mad from the grief and attempt to take control of the world over from Zerozaku! Whahahahaha.

But seriously, How in the world will Kanon take the new turn of events for the world? Its all for the worlds sake....but Schneizel is sort of a puppet, really.
simple really, kanon will just buy a a zero costume and cosplay as zero. next time schneizel sees him:

schneizel: what are your orders lord zero?
kanon: ~grins~
kanon: well do you still have your golden chains?
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Old 2008-09-30, 07:45   Link #3254
don1235
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And you think that wouldn't have any impact on the Britanian's national pride? And that Xing Ke and the others wouldn't have protested when it turned out the rulers of the other chunks of Britania somehow always voted as Lelouch did?


The nobles are a small minority. You can't wage war on more than half of your own country - especially if you want to stay Mister Nice Guy.

And heck, how is oppressing your own people somehow better than war?


Maybe... If Schneizel hadn't been there.


It still came out as "Every person in the UFN's equal, except the Britanian, who are each only worth 0.2 human being."


10%, actually. (20% of half the world) It's not so much. How many do China and India have? Are they willing to give up 80% of their votes so as not to overwhelm smaller nations?


I thought he'd already freed the Areas. Didn't they say so?


The leader of the largest nation after Britania and the one who not only is chairwoman of the UFN, but controls the world's largest supply of Sakuradite. and don't forget India, who probably know as much as Tian Zi.



So your plan was to let him kill two billion people? And you think it's somehow a preferable alternative?


After he's killed two billion people and broken the spirit of the survivors, it's too late to think about facing him head on.


The difference between Lelouch and Charles or Schneizel is that eventually (a rather short "eventually", too), Lelouch let go.


The overwhelming majority wishes not to get killed in senseless wars.


Or was geassed. Why would Lelouch let him be a loose end?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Unless Lelouch geasses them. Or else, they vote against him, and it inconveniences him. Or maybe they'll vote like him because they see the wisdom... and he'll be accused of having geassed them anyway.


That really depends on how many are "true Britanians".



Ougi the school teacher rose to head the rebellion. There's always someone.
China and Kaguraya cannot accuse him of geassing the delegates. They will be laughed out of office. Besides it doesn't matter if they vote against him. The purpose is to integrate Britiannia into the system and create peace. Even if Britiannia have to suffer a few bumps or disadvantage.

Only North and South America territories are considered Britainnia and he can surrender the rest of the area like Russia.

Oug rose to head the rebellion only with Zero's help. Without Zero, Ougi is nothing. Besides, why should the average Britainnian want to rebel, just because they are treated a little unfairly by UFN? THey are not fighting for their nation you know.

Besides after Leluoch demolished the nobility and dismantled the corporations, life got better for the average Britainnian with more social mobility and no nobles to oppress them.
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Old 2008-09-30, 08:00   Link #3255
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So, do people understand that Lelouch is alive yet? Or are they still blinded by the obvious facts in front of their faces...
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Old 2008-09-30, 08:01   Link #3256
don1235
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And maybe if Lelouch hadn't taken the world leaders hostage, Schneizel wouldn't have nuked Pendragon, but found some other way to oppose him.
Besides Damocles, Schneizel do not have anything. No political power, land, resources. Opposing Leluoch will be difficult.

The ending was forced to be a tragedy. Like I said, Lelouch died to make the anime tragic and add more drama. It is too boring to end at Episode 22 with Lelouch reforming Britiannia and creating an everlasting peace. Remind me of a sad Chinese love story with the female cast suffers from an incurable disease and did not tell her lover. Instead, she pushes her lover away, leaving her lover heartbroken at the end when he found out the truth. Sounds Familiar? Drama and tragedy.
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Old 2008-09-30, 08:07   Link #3257
tzia_n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Hai View Post
So, do people understand that Lelouch is alive yet? Or are they still blinded by the obvious facts in front of their faces...
no, people are still running away from the fact that things are ambiguous
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Old 2008-09-30, 08:08   Link #3258
Droplet
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Holy cow, this episode reminds me of the storyline of MGS 3: Snake Eater. ;_;

This episode was, to say the least, amazing... now to rewatch it a few more times to grasp the minor details.

EDIT:

Please refresh me with theories concerning whether Lelouche is alive or not after that act in the Parade.

Edit 2:

FOUND IT: THE EVIDENCE THAT LELOUCHE IS ALIVE

Last edited by Droplet; 2008-09-30 at 08:24.
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Old 2008-09-30, 08:11   Link #3259
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Droplet View Post
Holy cow, this episode reminds me of the storyline of MGS 3: Snake Eater. ;_;

This episode was, to say the least, amazing... now to rewatch it a few more times to grasp the minor details.
And to cry like a baby at the bittersweet ending. Or is it just me?
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Old 2008-09-30, 08:29   Link #3260
Droplet
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And to cry like a baby at the bittersweet ending. Or is it just me?
Hehe, I think it's a blessing to cry after watching a beautiful ending, Anh Minh. I was not as lucky to be moved to tears though. However, I was very touched.
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