Claymore Chapter 122

[MalakTawus]

We know for a fact that even normal warriors can "see" Anastasia's hairs if they know what to look for,so i don't see why it's so surprising for them to utilize her hairs.
Histy probably didn't notice since she wasn't expecting a technique like that or maybe she noticed but she simply doesn't care,infact she doesn't seem to have any trouble dealing with warriors midair even if they use that "trick".

About Histy not attacking Miria is also not that surprising since i bet she doesn't want to kill her like the others,she probably see Miria as a "special" prey and want to fully enjoy her death,that's why imo it makes sense for her to take care of the annoying warriors and keep the "dessert" at the end.
And who cares if someone heals Miria?Why should Histy interfere?I doubt Histy thinks that she could be defeated anyway,on the contrary she probably would be happy to fight again against an healed Miria,so she'll have the chance to show her superiority and get her revenge.

[Gooral]

Spoiler for Response to Nixl:

Originally Posted by Nixl

That is a silly argument coming from you Gooral. Having a different opinion is not being stubborn….it’s called having a different opinion. Shocking right? For having posted on this forum so long you should know there is actually more than 1 opinion on the internet. Furthermore, where did I ignore your argument? I responded to all those arguments, but I guess that is ignoring right?

Having a different opinion - no, but ignoring arguments - yes. And you didn't respond to my arguments, not even once. You also didn't respond to Fate_Archers arguments either. All you did was cutting the discussion short and saying that it's a matter of opinion. But it's not a matter of opinion whether Witch's Maw arc is the same as current ones. Because they're completely different in almost every way, especially plot-armor-wise.

Seriously, personal opinion does not equal objective fact. You may say something Gooral, but it is not objective fact. You think early claymore was epic, while I think it was mediocre, funny how opinions work. Yet, do you see me passive aggressively putting "lols" and saying you "ignored" my argument? If so, please tell me where.

OK. Here goes.

1) You agreed with my argument that Jean withstanding pain for so long made sense when taking into account that she has the biggest "fighting spirit" (the highest mental stat which is A+). Yet later you were ignoring this and putting this situation on the same level as Miria's situation (who has this stat evaluated at B). This is not a matter of opinion even if databooks wouldn't be taken into account. Firstly, Jean was shown as someone fearless, not afraid to die and extremely resilient to any form of persuasion, no matter who was the persuader (e.g. when she marched into a cave filled with unfriendly Claymores or when she ignored Clare's opinion or when she didn't even flinch when she was attacked by Deneve and Helen or when she didn't flinch when fight with Galatea was imminent or most of all when she didn't give in to Riful's smooth talking). And she was a defensive warrior which could allow her to survive more damage than offensive warrior. On the other hand Miria is an offensive warrior who could withstand even more damage (damage to the point she wasn't recognizable and MiB wouldn't look at her). Later she could do all that + act under high youki release while still not going over her limit awakening or without any consequences at all. What's maybe most important is that she could withstand awakening and go back by herself. Jean managed to do that only thanks to Clare. And we're talking about someone who was paralyzed by fear when Rigaldo attacked them and was going bonkers when she killed Hilda who was an AB (so killing her was her duty).

2) In Witch's Maw we've had 3 casualties at the start of this arc + we've seen torture (and heard about 30 other Claymores being tortured) and overall it was much darker than anything after Pieta. Now no one dies, not even randoms, we don't see torture or anything nasty besides some limbs being cut off which can be attached later easily or regrown. I would like to see another one armed Claymore, at least one. But nothing like that happens. Offensive warriors lose their arms in a clean cut and later re-attach their arms and when on occasion we see more gruesome wounds, the wounded ones are defensive warriors so it doesn't matter.
This is my main argument which so far you've ignored in your every post.

Also, when you compare two pictures below it's clear which one is more gruesome (not to mention that Raquel actually died while Deneve's wound is no more severe than me cutting my finger). And what's worth noting, the picture in current chapter shows the most gruesome wounds since Pieta but it's still nothing compared to what happened in Witch's Maw.



3) In Witch's Maw, Abyssal wasn't their opponent but Duff. In addition, Galatea, Jean and Clare are stronger than any of the ghosts except Miria (although Clare is much stronger than Miria and Galatea with released power would also be stronger). Comparing this situation with ghosts going after 3 AOs and fighting one while being small fries (including Deneve and Helen, although it's much more apparent in the case of Yuma, Tabitha, Nike, Anastasia and Dee) is just silly. Dee who had problems fighting average AB while having a backup can now survive against AO for more than 10 seconds? WTF?

4) How can you say that the situation was the same when we didn't have back-up characters then? And it was at the time when Yagi wasn't afraid to kill even charismatic and interesting characters. Now even if someone dies reader knows there are 10 other characters in it's place plus Clare is on the side waiting to be summoned by Yagi (knowing him she will get here just in time so that no one dies).

5) Riful sparing them made more sense than Hysteria not killing any of the ghosts for several reasons. It's been clearly stated that Riful took no pleasure in torturing Claymores, nor did she want to kill them without reason. All she wanted was a strong ally that could help her win against other AOs. What could she gain by killing small fries (weak from her point of view) who didn't do anything bad against her? That wasn't her objective. And letting Duff fight them was a perfect way to measure their strength without killing them. Hysteria on the other hand intended to kill Claymores from the start and she especially wanted to kill Miria. But what she's doing now? She sparring with them when other two AOs are fighting each other. She's waisting her time and energy when she knows that she might have to fight with a winner of the Abyssal fight.

6) Clare wasn't going on suicide mission as far as she knew. She didn't even know Riful was there and that it was a hopeless situation. On the other hand ghosts knew perfectly well that where they're going there are 3 AOs. That's countering your argument "characters stupidly showed bravado" in both arcs. And guess what, you didn't counter that argument either, only ignored it and said this.

7) Yeah, the pictures below show the same !@#$%^&*-pully manoeuver:

Spoiler for long explanation why Miria's way of defeating Hysteria was the most ridiculous scene in Claymore:

On the left we have an armless Miria who was laying on the ground a while earlier but managed to outrun Hysteria. She couldn't do anything to her earlier but when Cassandra awakened it ended instantly. What's more when she did her mouth job she wasn't even over her limit and yet she could move faster than Hysteria and make an impossible thing since she could grab the sword from the ground using her mouth and stab Hysteria in the neck faster than Hysteria could swing her sword even though she was in perfect position and she was using her arms. That's not all however. Miria purposefully stopping at the exact spot where the sword was while Hysteria wasn't paying attention where she landed, in the just exact position so that sword wouldn't stick out and so she could reach the grip easily without changing her body position is close to zero (read: impossible). It would be nowhere near Clare's plan where she had time, means and opportunity.
And her attack with a mouth is even less possible, Ryus has explained it beautifully. Add to this she had get up from a "face on the ground + everything else on the ground" position (it's almost impossible for a human being to do that without using your hands and impossible without kneeling) - no matter how strong her legs were it was an impossible task unless she was way faster than Hysteria and/or had super powerful neck muscles so she could try getting up using her neck which would mean they were more powerful than her leg muscles which is absurd. Basically, Miria had to get on her knees first, get up, make a 180 degrees rotation and be far enough from Hysteria so she could do what she did (otherwise stabbing wasn't an option, only slicing) while Hysteria had perfect position all of her limbs and greater speed and technique according to Miria, lol. And add to this that she lost much more steam than Hysteria (at least she should have) since she was using her youki reserves while Hysteria didn't even go golden besides the moment of her elegant technique.

That's not all but I'll stop at that. For more you would have to go to 120 chapter thread. This alone makes this arc more stupid than anything.

Now, compare it with 3 (literally: three) Claymores where one had the most powerful attack any Claymore had, the other had the fastest attack and the other could mind f*ck from a distance, all acting together in a coordinated manner using their superior number and terrain (closed space which prevented Duff from escaping anywhere) to their advantage. These two situations aren't even close where believability is concerned.

8) Another very strong argument - earlier when someone died he died permanently. Now we have resurrections. Miria, Raftela and ZAOs are prime examples of that. There is also Raki who has the toughest plot-armor of all characters.

What you're telling me is that breaking one egg is the same as breaking 10 eggs because it's breaking. In this case, in Witch's Maw characters had plot armour and in current arcs they have plot armour but you're ignoring above arguments and say that these situations are the same. You're looking only at the conclusion and not the method that allowed it to happen. Yes, in both arcs characters were saved but the odds were different. In Witch's Maw it's been stated by Galatea that against Duff they have chances of winning (which makes sense because of point #5), in current arc it's been stated by Rubel that Miria has no chances at all. And yet Miria survived against all odds while Clare, Jean and Galatea survived by using the small chance they've had (which was much bigger than in Miria's case).

Actually, it is more than just body count. I'll have a full post soon/later of all the narrative similarities I believe the two arcs have.

I'm looking forward to it because so far you haven't responded to my or Archer's arguments in a way other than "it's a matter of opinion".

There are more things but I'll wait until I finally get a response other than "it's a matter of opinion".

[fraktur]

i'm not letting myself get dragged in a quotewar, but

Originally Posted by Gooral

In addition, Galatea, Jean and Clare are stronger than any of the ghosts except Miria

edit: gooral i understand that you are one of the people who thinks the only character allowed to get stronger is clare and every other character getting stronger is beyond impossible (and absolutely ridiculous in the case of mira). but serously, you want to tell me that you think jean back then is stronger then any of the ghosts? really?

you think she could beat helen, who has her technique now (which is "the most powerful attack any Claymore had") and got rid of the long preparation time (as seen vs isley and hysteria) and can use it as a long rage attack, in a fight? helen survived against isley and although she was about to lose i don't see jean doing as well as she did. deneve is even stronger than helen and got wicked selfheal skills. both of them are not just half awakeneds like jean but trained for 7 years now and although jean was stronger than both of them, it wasn't a giantic leap (not like irene to priscilla). they treat most abs like cassandra treats her food* now. in all honesty i don't see jean doing the same thing (or well, as we've already seen she didn't).

galatea is a different matter. she was strong back then and can still put up a fight, but her strengh is her exceptional yokireading. she got stronger but her main improvement was still in the yokireading department. and as much as i would love to say otherwise i don't think that galatea can handle miria now. i would put her above deneve but the gap is also closing. hopefully she'll get bored in nun purgatory and finally do something other than drinking tea.

i also don't think that clare (pieta) was stronger than "all of the ghosts (-m)"

*like shit, that is.

also: please stop treating raquel like a fleshed out character. she had a cool name but her only purpose was to tell claire that a loli gets of on torture. she was a walking plot device and you know it. so please stop using her as an example that yagi killed characters back then when the twins said a chapter ago that "some of the claymores were still alive". the claymores that died in the revolution are as fleshed out as raquel.

[Gooral]

Yep. In case of Clare and Galatea there shouldn't be any doubt, in case of Jean since she had much higher number than any of the ghosts (except Miria) and was single digit and had the most powerful attack any Claymore had AND she completely awakened (so she also had a bonus of partial-awakening) I don't see how it's that strange to you that someone would think that.

[SpiritOfGray]

I think it's hard to imagine since no situation similar to Rigardo has happened to the Ghosts since Jean died. Jean was defenseless against him. The teamwork and experience of the Ghosts has greatly improved, so they are rarely in helpless, 1v1, situations. Cynthia and Yuma vs Beth may be the closest I can think of. We saw the result of that.

With that being said, Helen kinda stole her technique, and had a few years of training. I wont say that makes her stronger, but it doesn't mean she isn't better than Jean.

[Claymore!]

Originally Posted by Gooral
And she was a defensive warrior which could allow her to survive more damage than offensive warrior. On the other hand Miria is an offensive warrior who could withstand even more damage (damage to the point she wasn't recognizable and MiB wouldn't look at her).

I hope your not talking about Jean. She was an offensive warrior.

[Gooral]

This is going to be fun .

Now fraktur, don't twist my words. I never said no one besides Clare can become stronger, I said that the gap between Jean and Deneve was just too big. Between a single digit and #10 there is always a gap and Jean was 6 ranks higher than Deneve who was 4 ranks lower than Undine even. Also, all Deneve has shown for now is her superior regeneration which wouldn't help her against destructive power of a drill sword. One hit could end their fight while Deneve wouldn't have anything special in her arsenal besides using two swords (which wouldn't necessarily be an advantage, otherwise we would only see warriors using two weapons instead of one either in our or Claymore world). You might also say that Deneve has above average strength but strength was Jean's trump card so I doubt she would lose in that department (she also was extremely tough for an offensive warrior). As for Helen, sure she can twist her arm quickly but that also means her attack is less powerful. Since Helen is more flexible and her body is more "plastic" every one twist of her arm carries less power than Jean's one twist (in other words Jean's one twist carries more potential energy than Helen's since to twist it even once you have to use more strength). So it might be that one twist of Jean equals two or three Helen's twists and that Helen could make 2-3 twists more in the same amount of time than Jean wouldn't necessarily mean her attack would be more powerful. Power equals energy/time, so if Jean could do 2 twists in 1 second and Helen 2 twists in 0.5 second but Jean's twist would have two times higher potential energy it wouldn't make a difference power-wise.

Originally Posted by fraktur

(...) you think she could beat helen, who has her technique now (which is "the most powerful attack any Claymore had") and got rid of the long preparation time (as seen vs isley and hysteria) and can use it as a long rage attack, in a fight?

Helen's drill sword isn't the most powerful attack, you're jumping to conclusions. Check this chart out (graph 1). It clearly states that Helen's attack is even less powerful than Ophelia's rippling sword (not to mention WC or QS). And penetrating through Isley's flesh in his human form isn't exactly a huge feat since he had no armor at all, it's not even remotely close to what Jean did against Duff. As for her fight with Hysteria, she couldn't even hit her so it hardly proves anything. Even if she did, even Tabitha could do some damage so...

Edit: Although now that I think about it graph 1 doesn't apply here since the stats are before Helen learned the drill sword. Still, my other arguments stand.

helen survived against isley and although she was about to lose i don't see jean doing as well as she did.

Jean was the only one besides Miria who actually wasn't killed in one shot by Rigaldo (out of Claymores he was targeting). She was also the only one who managed to parry his attacks (not counting Miria and Clare) which makes it a huge feat especially if you take into account that Flora, who was ranked higher than her and had the fastest drawing technique, couldn't do it. Anyway, going back to the Isley fight, Helen managed to hit Isley because of at least 4 things that were a sign of a huge luck she had:
1) Isley conveniently attacked Deneve not her, otherwise she would be dead already
2) She was cloaked
3) Isley was injured and weakened
4) Isley was distracted by AE and Deneve who Isley must have known wasn't dead

And Isley in his human form must have been slower than awakened Rigaldo.

Considering above I don't see why Jean wouldn't be able to do as much as Helen did.

helen survived against isley and although she was about to lose i don't see jean doing as well as she did.

they treat most abs like cassandra treats her food* now. in all honesty i don't see jean doing the same thing (or well, as we've already seen she didn't).

Just because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it couldn't happen. If you look at the chart with Claymores abilities you will see that for Helen and Deneve in order to use their special abilities they need to go near their limit, higher than Jean has to in order to use her drill sword (even at maximum power). You also have to take into account that Jean could do her special move before she even awakened, contrary to Deneve and Helen, which means she has more room to improve (which would happen with youki release, basically the more youki they would release the more advantage Jean would get while Deneve and Helen wouldn't since they would already be using it. Unless they would do as Miria did and went over 80% but it would be entirely different thing plus Jean would have high chances of accomplishing it too being the only Claymore ever to awaken and go back.

galatea is a different matter. she was strong back then and can still put up a fight, but her strengh is her exceptional yokireading. she got stronger but her main improvement was still in the yokireading department. and as much as i would love to say otherwise i don't think that galatea can handle miria now. i would put her above deneve but the gap is also closing. hopefully she'll get bored in nun purgatory and finally do something.

You're forgetting about Galatea's youki which is higher than Miria's. The problem would be that Galatea wouldn't go 80% just to defeat Miria even if it would mean her death. But just because someone isn't fighting back it doesn't mean he's weaker.

also: please stop treating raquel like a fleshed out character. she had a cool name but her only purpose was to tell claire that a loli gets of on torture. she was a walking plot device and you know it. so please stop using her as an example that yagi killed characters back then when the twins said a chapter ago that "some of the claymores were still alive". the claymores that died in the revolution are as fleshed out as raquel.

In that case you can add 30 Claymores that Riful tortured and killed before Jean, Katea, Raquel and the last one of Jean's team whose name we don't know. Also, I'm not treating Raquel as "fleshed out character", she has the same value to the story as Nike has or some other randoms but the thing is death of none of them was shown. That's not all, none of them were confirmed dead. All we have is Miria's "And for the sake of the warriors that are still alive, I can’t leave the new abyssal one like this either…". That's completely different from stating that someone died. Miria didn't say "I can't let anyone else die" or anything like that. It could be interpreted in many ways one of them being that since she couldn't tll who's alive and who's just badly injured she said that. So please stop jumping to conclusions :].

Originally Posted by Claymore!

I hope your not talking about Jean. She was an offensive warrior.

You are right of course, funny thing though, I didn't make this mistake later on. Anyway, thanks for pointing it out.

[fraktur]

as i already stated this is not going to be a quotewar, i may edit later though

i didn't read your whole post but even now i can agree that jeans drillsword is far stronger than helens limb extension... what? afaik the databook was released before we even knew helen could use the drillsword, so it doesn't even compare their drillsword versions.

about the only clare will x: it's just something that catched my eye. people are more likely to ignore or even like bullshit plot twists if it helps claire get a special position or something but react extreme harsh if others get the same "helping hand". some people start raging while others are just biased. (it's not just you (and you aren't even an extreme example), so don't address it).

i'm not forgetting galateas large yoki. but the main problem is she doesn't even want to use her yoki because of her model looks (for which i, strangely, even like her more). also galatea countered clarices "she is far stronger than you" with "she as more yoki than me" so larger yoki isn't everything (if you're not priscilla at least). also if you fight against miria it's a fight of speed and galatea isn't as fast. would galatea have beaten miria 7 years ago? no, she wouldn't just beat her. she would wipe the floor with her. but now? i don't think so.

i didn't reread witches maw (and you can argue with nixl in greater detail about the arc) but riful didn't torture that many claymores. but twin a (or b, srsly they got more screentime then nike, we should name them ourselves if yagi isn't going to) said "there are still warriors who are alive and have merely lost consciousness." of course she didn't say some died. but, at least for me, her sentence is a hint that some are dead. mirias comment doesn't state anything (sometimes when she opens her mouth it has some strange results).

you're right we don't know how strong helens drillsword is. but for all we know it could also be still 90% of jeans strengh or not have any loss at all. but not every enemy has a hard shell like duff. for most of them that many spins aren't even needed. and after a few spins it's just overkill anyway. we also don't know how fast she spins her arm but it's at least fast enough that she doesn't need to become a sitting duck like jean. which in itself is a huge advantage. the long rage is also a bonus.

most of deneves stats should be really high now. and i'm pretty sure higher then jeans 7 years ago, minus strengh. remember this is not an imaginary scenario where jean trained with the ghosts 7 years ago. this is still the same jean as you stated. but deneve become stronger, got faster and got used to fighting abs. you're right about the fact that jean wasn't one-shotted by rigaldo. but jean in return didn't one-shot the other abs in pieta. but deneve and helen play with the abs they encounter (we could call that one-shot actually but yes they use more than one swing of their swords) and even after fighting hellcats for a whole day they weren't nearly dying of exhaustion (let's ignore how ridiculous that was).

[Gooral]

Yeah, you're right, I added a correction before I've seen your post. Anyway, I wanted to quote you since I wanted to address these particular points but I could sum it up without quote wars next time.

Edit:
Twins said exact same thing,

Compare:
Miria: "And for the sake of the warriors that are still alive"
Twins: "There are still warriors who are alive and have merely lost consciousness."

No confirmation of death either.

[Friday]

New Years came early for me

but I wait for the t..... to judge it properly.

[Nixl]

@Gooral I am not going to be able to post my response till I get my laptop back and end my holiday visit. I am thrilled with the responses thus far, but if I have my android auto convert "the" into "three dimensional" one more time I am going to punch a cat. I just cannot do this through a phone . Girlfriend aggro does not make this any easier.
Edit I can only read a few lines, but why is a Ronald McDonald pic posted? Isn't a little early for more deneve comparison pictures?

[GundamZZ]

I didn't know Claymore received the education in classical physics.

The mutual forces of action and reaction between two bodies are equal, opposite and collinear.

I can't remember a thing about "anti-effect force"(Newton's Third Law). This chapter also makes me wonder about Clare's potential. Hysteria's new form reminds Miria about Clare's transform in Pieta. It means Clare has the number 1 potential.

[Arlenis]

Wait. How do you know Miria thinks that? Is there something I don't know?

[GundamZZ]

...because Miria speaks it out loud.

Originally Posted by Helen

This thing...Could it be...

Originally Posted by Miria

No mistake...when I see that form, the first think comes into my mind...the awakened form of Clare who deafeated Rigardo..

[manmmlala]

Originally Posted by Arlenis

So...I just voted and realized I should wait until dialogue. Oh well. I'm pretty sure I'll have the same opinion. I'm really impressed with that wretched bitch (Hysteria). Judging by the bit I've seen, her attack methods and maneuvering is unparalleled...even by Priscilla I'd say in terms of speed. I don't quite understand why she's having such a hard damn time finishing the job in the little wounds she inflicts. What? Can she only chip away at enemies until their ultimate doom? For that, I must say that her damage factor sucks HORRIBLY for an abyssal one. One cannot expect to be able to do much against a fellow abyssal one with those damage capabilities. Furthermore, IS she flying without the wings toward the end and why does she eject those prongs that surrounded her lower section with no clear aim at anyone; is she getting rid of them to change form?

she is ejecting those prongs just to produce a reaction force for her to dash towards the opposite direction in the air;
for example if the prongs are ejecting towards this position -->
her body will move towards this position <-- due to the reaction force

[manmmlala]

Originally Posted by Fermat

I must say, Hysteria actually looks better sans wings, particularly in page 16. She doesn't appear too top-heavy with her legs spread out and far-reaching like that.

She seems a bit disappointing in the first few pages, being "surprised" a few times and losing her wings early on. Maybe she was surprised to see such great coordination between warriors? She becomes quite powerful when she speeds up, though. It's like she's in "Perpetual Elegance." I have with to agree with Arlenis, though, that the damage potential is a bit underwhelming. While Riful wasn't as fast, she could, as Clare said, probably mince up one of the Ghosts quite easily.

As for shooting those projectiles, perhaps she's trying to lessen drag to become even faster? Perhaps she lost those wings intentionally and was simply gauging how powerful her foes were? Anyway, design-wise, those blades were a plus, so once gone, she'd go from bizarre to... a bit bare. (Pun not intended.)

Anyway, not much to discuss since: 1) we don't have a translation yet, and 2) it's mostly an action chapter. We'll just have to see how the dialogue is several days from now.

she was surprised becoz:
1) the warriors can "float"/"fly" in the air <-- all becoz of Anastasia hair
2) Tabatha's yoki could not be detected coz she is the only one that hasn't emitted any yoki after 7 years

other hints for you guys to figure out the chapter:
1) hysteria said she wanted to fly in the air (and thus the current awakened form), but with such tiny wings, her speed in the air was not even 1/10 of her speed on the ground, she said she might as well rip the wings herself
2) no.8 n no.15(?) could cut hysteria's wings off coz no.8 said when moving in the air, being lighter had an advantage
3) after her wing being cut off, hysteria asked miria if she was surprised to see that after awakening, hysteria herself didn't seem to be quite agile; and hysteria said miria should be able to understand why her awakened form was like that

[Arlenis]

1.) Really. If she doesn't sprout new prongs repeatedly to keep up doing that even MORE blitz powered technique, then her form is flawed.

2.) Her form is further flawed if it awakened into a winged state that hinders her via wings that needed to be removed to reach full power.

3.) Why on EARTH is she still kicking their ass then!? AND flying despite no wings.

[fraktur]

Originally Posted by GundamZZ

This chapter also makes me wonder about Clare's potential. Hysteria's new form reminds Miria about Clare's transform in Pieta. It means Clare has the number 1 potential.

i get it, miria wants a new nickname: captain obvious miria

[GundamZZ]

Originally Posted by Arlenis

3.) Why on EARTH is she still kicking their ass then!? AND flying despite no wings.

She jumps around, not flying. It's like they don't actually walking on air.

[GundamZZ]

Originally Posted by fraktur

i get it, miria wants a new nickname: captain obvious miria

Someone has to be the announcer, else reader won't know what's going on. It's like shonen manga characters like to call out their move. Even they are in the heat of battles, they need to stand by and explain their next move. Some manga(not Claymore) have walls of texts. Also, too much text would turn readers off. The good thing is Miria is not babbly yet.