[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[ijriims]

Great. As Erika's perception was accurate and reflects the reality, it is officially crushed then (Though I wonder why it needed an official crushing at all since Shakanon theory never make sense from the real world perspective.)

[Neofio3]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Clean and neat than your articulation of the meaning of 07151129. Though your explanation should work if Jessica was in fact switched baby. But you still have not explained why Rudolf and Asumu would agree such a switch at all.

For the reason that if they did, their child has a better than average chance of becoming head? Fear of Kinzo? A piece of the gold?

For all we know, this hypothetical switch is only part of the puzzle, in the vein of the "living Beatrice being innocent or a pawn" theory (and is actually the reason why Kyrie goes homicidal, if she is indeed the culprit). Or it it could that Jessica really is the culprit in all or at least some murders.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Neofio3

The name "Battler" is so non-standard its ungendered (and we know as much, Because Battler basically has to explain it to everyone he meets). Hence it does not preclude it as a name for anyone. Its just as strange on a male as it is on a female. We're just so used to it in a male we don't notice.

I wouldn't say so, the kanji means "war" and "person", this is definitely not a name a japanese would normally give to a girl.

Originally Posted by Neofio3

Don't confuse the distinction to the statement. I said "the only relevant person in the island where such a birthday applies is (as) a person with the same age: Jessica".

And why it needs to be a person on the island?

Originally Posted by Neofio3

Derived through process of elimination. If there are only two choices, and choice A is wrong, then the correct choice is B. This does not preclude an unknown choice C (a person which has never been introduced) which would skew the entire theory, but that is basically going into "later queen" territory, as stated by Ryukishi. A devil's proof. A logical conundrum. You cannot disprove a negative. (which is why the Red Truth was needed in the first place). So yes, while positing unknown Battler-named person X is possible, its not really helpful in counting or discounting anything, as far as it goes. I would think the game made us used to that at this point.

We are talking about hints here, not theories. Specifically we were talking about hints that might point to Jessica as Beatrice.
This whole theory that Jessica is Asumu's child is completely unrelated. Also the 07151129 itself doesn't hint to that.

All the other hints are pretty straight forward A therefore B

But what you are proposing here as a hint is something like
if((A = B) && (B = C) && (E = F)) therefore D

Your hint is a hint only if the following conditions are met:

07151129 refers to a birth date
Asumu's child is still alive
Asumu's child is on the island
Asumu's child is Beatrice

A true hint doesn't need a set of theories to be seen as a hint.

Originally Posted by the_rogue

I'm pretty sure there was a scene where Erika and the 17 were all in one room (I think there was even a red statement from Lambda about how all the humans on the island were in that one room, although I'm not sure), therefore crushing the Shkanon theory .

Two possible counters:

1) Episode5 is substantially different from other previous games. For example this is the only game where there are 18 persons instead of 17 or less. Which means even if both Kanon and Shannon are there in Ep5 that doesn't mean they are in previous episodes

2) Battler's perspective in this game is not reliable. We do not see the game through Erika's eyes, we see the game through Battler's eyes. So even if Battler sees Erika interacting with someone, that doesn't mean Erika actually does.

[Ithekro]

One thing. 07/15 as a date...does not give a year. This could be anyone's birthdate. Even Kinzo's. Same for 11/29 if that is a second date rather than 11:29...a time. That 7/15 is Battler's birthday narrows it down, yet the 1129 is an unknown...in terms of being relevent to anything aside from probably a pass code or P.O. box number sort of deal. Thus attempting to say it narrows down the number of people by their age is flawed...since there is no year given to deturmine age.

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Two possible counters:

1) Episode5 is substantially different from other previous games. For example this is the only game where there are 18 persons instead of 17 or less. Which means even if both Kanon and Shannon are there in Ep5 that doesn't mean they are in previous episodes

2) Battler's perspective in this game is not reliable. We do not see the game through Erika's eyes, we see the game through Battler's eyes. So even if Battler sees Erika interacting with someone, that doesn't mean Erika actually does.

1)
-Furudo Erika has not influenced the game up to this point.
-She did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it.
-Furudo Erika only increased the head count by one. Not counting her, the number of people on the island is exactly the same as in the preceding games.
-In short, it means that the number of people in this drawing room now is the number of all people on the island.
Which means that as both Shannon and Kanon are present in the room, they are separate entities.

2) Possible, but not very credible...

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Great. As Erika's perception was accurate and reflects the reality, it is officially crushed then (Though I wonder why it needed an official crushing at all since Shakanon theory never make sense from the real world perspective.)

Unfortunately, I think there's still a little wiggle room. Lambda said:
The number of people in this room is the same as the number of people on the island.
And if I remember correctly, the scene wasn't shown from Erika's perspective, so you could argue that it's technically untrustworthy even though Erika was present. Shkanon is like a cockroach

I guess it depends on what the rules for false POVs are. Do all of the participants have to be lying (or dead) to present a false scene, or just the POV character? Battler proposed that a conspiracy was necessary to explain Natsuhi and Kanon talking to Kinzo in the same scene, but that theory wasn't ever confirmed in red.

EDIT: Curses, ninja'd by Jan-poo.

[Ithekro]

So for the Shkanon theory to work...one or the other (whichever one you believe to be the real one) has schizophrenia or perhaps a multi-personality disorder. Because Kanon and Shannon's personalities are pretty far apart. Shannon being fairly gentle, and Kanon being rather depressed and wrathful when angered.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Geekodot

1)
-Furudo Erika has not influenced the game up to this point.
-She did not exist in the world up to this point, nor did she influence it.
-Furudo Erika only increased the head count by one. Not counting her, the number of people on the island is exactly the same as in the preceding games.
-In short, it means that the number of people in this drawing room now is the number of all people on the island.
Which means that as both Shannon and Kanon are present in the room, they are separate entities.

2) Possible, but not very credible...

The shkannon theory never said that they are separate entities, only that one of them is dead before the game and the other is impersonating both.

BTW the text you mention do not definitely state that both Kanon and Shannon are there. Shannon isn't mentioned in any red text of Ep5 except the one said by Natsuhi which doesn't refer to the present.

The biggest threat to the shkannon theory imho is still what Lambda said in Ep4's secret tea party.

Rather what really is a bother for option number1 is the fact that red states that except Erika the number of the people is exactly the same as in previous game. Which means that if this time Shannon and Kanon are both there and in previous episodes aren't, then in previous episodes there must be a X person to make the number count match.

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The shkannon theory never said that they are separate entities, only that one of them is dead before the game and the other is impersonating both.

BTW the text you mention do not definitely state that both Kanon and Shannon are there. Shannon isn't mentioned in any red text of Ep5 except the one said by Natsuhi which doesn't refer to the present.

The biggest threat to the shkannon theory imho is still what Lambda said in Ep4's secret tea party.

Rather what really is a bother for option number1 is the fact that red states that except Erika the number of the people is exactly the same as in previous game. Which means that if this time Shannon and Kanon are both there and in previous episodes aren't, then in previous episodes there must be a X person to make the number count match.

How about this then?

-The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
-A different person cannot claim his name!

So Shannon couldn't impersonate Kanon.

[Jan-Poo]

that's what I was talking about in the post you quoted. Lambda said that in Ep4's secret tea party.

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

that's what I was talking about in the post you quoted. Lambda said that in Ep4's secret tea party.

Yes, Shannon couldn't impersonate Kanon, which means that Kanon was there because he was seen by Battler and the number of people on the island in ep 5 is the same as the previous games and all the people are gathered in the room.

Which means that Shannon and Kanon isn't the same person in any game.
Shkanon theory crushed.

[Jan-Poo]

the red text isn't saying anything about impersonating. You are interpreting stuff in a convenient way.

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

the red text isn't saying anything about impersonating. You are interpreting stuff in a convenient way.

so are you

When it says a different person can't claim his name, it means a different person can't wear the same outfit and tell people that he/she is Kanon.

[Jan-Poo]

can you prove it?

[Kitsu]

He can't..claiming someones name is something different than dressing up as someone. To say
"Hey, from now on I'm Battler and gonna solve this" is claiming someones name in this case it's claiming Battler's. Name nd looks are different from each other. But as soon as Person X proclaims in one instance..the in stance of the introduction in which Kanon meets BAttler
"I'm Kanon" he or she is claiming Kanon's name and to be Kanon.

[Jan-Poo]

Well my point is not to prove the shkannon theory is true, only that the cat box isn't opened yet.

[Kitsu]

I know that (though you were/are quite indeed quite a follower of that theory weren't you) and I agree with you the cat box isn't opened yet at all. Though if I have to be honest Ep 5 kinda had the "In your face" feeling due the fact that Ryukishi seemed to make Kanon and Shannon only appear together all of sudden but that may be the misleading fact Ryukishi already mentioned. But I cna't judge properly yet due the fact that I only got the overall plot of Ep 5 from playing in Japanes and did not understood everything

[Geekodot]

Still, the whole theory is pretty stupid... Shannon was found dead in the shed in Episode 1 and Kanon was standing next to her right? Battler didn't see Shannon's body, but Hideyoshi did and even if you claim that Hideyoshi's view is not objective and that he could lie about it being Shannon, why on earth would he ever do that? It only pains George to know that fact and Hideyoshi doesn't benefit in any way unless there is something like a Hideyoshi culprit theory in place...

And what about the second game? They should've both been in the chapel with the cousins... EDIT: (actually, Shannon and Genji leaves right before the cousins enter... however they should've passed on the way to the chapel).

And in the third game, both Shannon and Kanon are found dead are they not? Oh, but Kanon could've died beforehand and Shannon could've dressed up as him...

Seriously, the whole Shannon = Kanon theory is about as believable as "Small bombs".

Also, for alle the scenes with Shannon and Kanon to be fake, almost everyone on the island must be lying to Battler because they can't have a subjective view of a scene for no reason.

[Kitsu]

Still, the whole theory is pretty stupid... Shannon was found dead in the shed in Episode 1 and Kanon was standing next to her right? Battler didn't see Shannon's body, but Hideyoshi did and even if you claim that Hideyoshi's view is not objective and that he could lie about it being Shannon, why on earth would he ever do that? It only pains George to know that fact and Hideyoshi doesn't benefit in any way unless there is something like a Hideyoshi culprit theory in place...

Just an example
Kanon/Shannon died shortly before the events of the 4th and 5th october due something that wasn't an accident. The corpse of that one who died before everything started was put into the shed as well.

Seriously, the whole Shannon = Kanon theory is about as believable as "Small bombs".

Also, for alle the scenes with Shannon and Kanon to be fake, almost everyone on the island must be lying to Battler because they can't have a subjective view of a scene for no reason.

Didn't you realize that Kshannon bases on the fact that no one except a few know of the death of Kanon/Shannon and it is all still a secret? Therefore everyone who interacts with Kshannon really thinks they interacted with Kanon/Shannon and therefore doesn't lie to BAttler when they say they talked with one of them.
Edit: And no oen except Kumasawa ever mentioned to be together with both of them (she mentions that one time saying she was fullfilling tasks with both of them)

[Ithekro]

But then, what would the point be of hiding the death of a servent that died before October 4th? They are hired help. Orphans that are set loose later after they earn some money and skills in these two's case...Shannon being somewhat of an exception as she's been there ten years.

Hiding Kinzo's death serves a purpose. Hiding Shannon or Kanon's does not. Both live on the island, so those that also live on the island would notice things being different or changed. Thus Krauss, Natsuhi, and Jessica would notice for sure. As would Genji who I assume lives there as well. If Shannon was dead, Jessica...her friend, would notice. If Kanon were dead, Jessica would definately notice, considering how interested in Kanon she is.

Thus in both cases, for Shkannon to work on the level of one replacing the other due ot one being dead...Jessica has either be in the know, or it doesn't work. And if one of those two were dead, I'd think Jessica would be depressed...one being her friend and the other her emo prince.