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Old 2013-03-21, 17:10   Link #81
DarthDestroiar
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Originally Posted by Hisoka?? View Post
Seems like Madara was really quite weak. He was easily beaten by both the first and second hokages.

Hopefully he is better now with the rinnegan
It was a 24 hour fight, thats not "weak" material at all, one man was just better then the other.
Where did you see the second beat him?
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Old 2013-03-22, 00:02   Link #82
Sasukemaru
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This discussion has been more interesting then the chapter.

We got ppl claiming Madara is weak because he could only last 24 hours against the 1st and 2nd hokage plus 8 other senju by himself...Although i think it's likely that fight was just madara vs hashirama.

We got some guy refusing to accept sarutobi is weaker then hashirama...Oh yeah, and Frieza is still the most powerful being in the dbz universe because king kai said it that one time.
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Old 2013-03-22, 00:14   Link #83
JustRob
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Except Hashirama was never outright stated to be stronger then Hiruzen.
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Old 2013-03-22, 09:33   Link #84
DarthDestroiar
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Originally Posted by Sasukemaru View Post
This discussion has been more interesting then the chapter.

We got ppl claiming Madara is weak because he could only last 24 hours against the 1st and 2nd hokage plus 8 other senju by himself...Although i think it's likely that fight was just madara vs hashirama.

We got some guy refusing to accept sarutobi is weaker then hashirama...Oh yeah, and Frieza is still the most powerful being in the dbz universe because king kai said it that one time.
Technically Frieza is the stronguest (because he was not some android creation or a wizard creation) so he was. And you are right in the Madara part , he only lasted in a 24 hour fight against the first so weak...
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Old 2013-03-22, 11:28   Link #85
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
Except Hashirama was never outright stated to be stronger then Hiruzen.
and naruto was never outright stated to be stronger than shino but we can use basic logical deductions can't we? i prefer to not have every last detail and comparison spelled out for me. it's not difficult to see that hashirama was stronger than hiruzen. you just have to remove your blinders
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Old 2013-03-22, 20:03   Link #86
solidguy
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
and naruto was never outright stated to be stronger than shino but we can use basic logical deductions can't we? i prefer to not have every last detail and comparison spelled out for me. it's not difficult to see that hashirama was stronger than hiruzen. you just have to remove your blinders
But at the same time Shino was never stated to be a God of shinobi... I can live with God of Shinobi as describing the strongest ninja around. But it could also refer to Sarutobi being at the pinnacle of shinobi excellence without necessarily having 'Godlike' fighting strength. Kinda similar to how a boxer can be an extremely technical boxers boxer and get knocked tfo by a Mike Tyson kinda guy (which is kind of a bad example because Mike was extremely technical too -_- (but the point is raw strength vs 'ninja nouse').

Last edited by solidguy; 2013-03-22 at 20:14.
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Old 2013-03-22, 22:37   Link #87
Midnight Commander
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But at the same time Shino was never stated to be a God of shinobi... I can live with God of Shinobi as describing the strongest ninja around. But it could also refer to Sarutobi being at the pinnacle of shinobi excellence without necessarily having 'Godlike' fighting strength. Kinda similar to how a boxer can be an extremely technical boxers boxer and get knocked tfo by a Mike Tyson kinda guy (which is kind of a bad example because Mike was extremely technical too -_- (but the point is raw strength vs 'ninja nouse').
The title "God" of Shinobi seems to imply abilities beyond that of even elite shinobi, and honestly sounds all inclusive in regards to power, skill, and other atrributes. It doesn't seem likely that they'd describe someone as the God of shinobi because of technical prowess, and not god-like ability.

Out of curiosity(not necessarily directed at you in particular), why are some of you so adamant about Hiruzen holding this title, or being stronger than Hashirama?
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Old 2013-03-23, 00:17   Link #88
itachi-san314
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Out of curiosity(not necessarily directed at you in particular), why are some of you so adamant about Hiruzen holding this title, or being stronger than Hashirama?
because there's no doubt that hiruzen could fight someone of madara's skill who is also wielding the kyuubi wrapped in susano'o... and win of course
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Old 2013-03-23, 11:40   Link #89
Monster0
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This chapter gives another hint to the very end of the Naruto saga. Sakura had to become a medical ninja after all.
Sasuke will give Naruto his eyes,that will make things even.

Last edited by Monster0; 2013-03-23 at 11:56.
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Old 2013-03-23, 23:28   Link #90
Hisoka??
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Originally Posted by DarthDestroiar View Post
It was a 24 hour fight, thats not "weak" material at all, one man was just better then the other.
Where did you see the second beat him?
He got the Kyubbi as a pet which is external help and still lost in only 24 hours. Epic fights between equals in comics/mangas last for days or weeks before a victor emerges, by that standard, 24 hours is not quite a curb stomp, but shows a certain gap in ability.

Madara was quite clearly shown to be cut by the second in one of the panels.
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Old 2013-03-23, 23:49   Link #91
HasuMasu
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^ That was Izuna.

Also, the Nine Tails was clearly not shown in this particular fight.

Not to mention he wasn't only fighting Hashirama.
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Old 2013-03-24, 03:52   Link #92
solidguy
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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
The title "God" of Shinobi seems to imply abilities beyond that of even elite shinobi, and honestly sounds all inclusive in regards to power, skill, and other atrributes. It doesn't seem likely that they'd describe someone as the God of shinobi because of technical prowess, and not god-like ability.

Out of curiosity(not necessarily directed at you in particular), why are some of you so adamant about Hiruzen holding this title, or being stronger than Hashirama?
Idk just think in comparison with One Piece and their use of 'Gods'. Eneru can be seen as Madara, Sarutobi can be seen as Gan Fall. I don't intend to make a direct comparison though, just want to show you the direction that I'm leaning towards. One was crazy strong; the other, still stronger than everyone else but not as looney toon leagues above everyone.

Hashirama was obv stronger than the third, but why can't the third also be seen as a God of Shinobi from a more political p.o.v? The leaf was the strongest village and he was at the helm of it for the longest period...i'd say it's probably the equivalent of being president of U.S.
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Old 2013-03-24, 13:14   Link #93
itachi-san314
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i'd say it's probably the equivalent of being president of U.S.
and therefore not a god... compared to the current manga power levels, hiruzen isn't special at all (among the elite shinobi). the big excuse is always his old age, but look at what oonoki is capable of in his old age. if any of the more recent kages are godlike it's oonoki, not hiruzen. calling hiruzen the god of shinobi at this point makes no sense no matter how you want to slice it
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Old 2013-03-24, 13:32   Link #94
Hunter
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To be fair that's more about power inflation than actual power level within the story. If the author decides to put Edo-Sarutobi under the spotlight for some fan service you can be sure that he will be shown as a power to be reckoned with.
That said I wouldn't hold my breath, Kishomoto could have done that during the Kyubi attack flashback but he was too busy shining Yondaime's hair and I find more likely that he will do so again.
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Old 2013-03-24, 17:14   Link #95
Ero-Senn1n
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To be fair that's more about power inflation than actual power level within the story. If the author decides to put Edo-Sarutobi under the spotlight for some fan service you can be sure that he will be shown as a power to be reckoned with.
That said I wouldn't hold my breath, Kishomoto could have done that during the Kyubi attack flashback but he was too busy shining Yondaime's hair and I find more likely that he will do so again.
I think the best occasion would have been the Orochi vs Sarutobi battle. Which shouldn't have had a barrier made by 4 shitty less-then-jounin-level idiots, instead the battle should have been so intense that some jounins or chuunins wouldn't even join in because either Sarutobi ordered them to keep a distance to not die and instead go save the civilians or because they would accept that there's no reason for them to join this battle same as Shikaku decided not to join the Pain vs Naruto battle.

Of course it would still hold true that the 1st and 2nd were summoned in a weakened state, which wouldn't be revealed until now, but since Sarutobi had to fight 3 kage level people at the same time them being weakened compared to their prime would not mean that Sarutobi is weak. Such an epic battle and the fact that Orochi already told Sarutobi that his old age made him weak compared to his prime would do the job of imagining how strong Sarutobi was in his prime.

Although for me Sarutobi's fight would not seem so bad if it was not for the roof and barrier thing. I mean what is that roof made of? A roof that can stand the jutsu of 4 kage level ninja? Where was that magic roof when Pain attacked?
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Old 2013-03-25, 16:47   Link #96
Artimus_Prime
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i kinda wouldnt mind seeing all the shodai kages when hashirama and madara finally form konoha and create the one village per country system..
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Old 2013-03-25, 17:35   Link #97
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
and therefore not a god... compared to the current manga power levels, hiruzen isn't special at all (among the elite shinobi). the big excuse is always his old age, but look at what oonoki is capable of in his old age. if any of the more recent kages are godlike it's oonoki, not hiruzen. calling hiruzen the god of shinobi at this point makes no sense no matter how you want to slice it
Really? because I haven't seen the current kages do much of anything but gang up on Sasuke and get their butts handed to them by Madara.

Not to say that they aren't formidable, but I haven't seen the likes of Oonoki do anything that trumps Sarutobi.

But like it was said earlier, Hashirama's power is the result of hype. In order for Madara to be a credible major villain, he must be a unmatchable threat. So for anyone to have been his rival they too would have to be depicted as insanely powerful, thus you have the current "God of Shinobi" Hashirama.

Heh. To think there was time where people actually wondered if Kakuzu defeated Shodaime. Though I guess technically the outcome of that fight is unknown
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Old 2013-03-26, 00:34   Link #98
itachi-san314
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Really? because I haven't seen the current kages do much of anything but gang up on Sasuke and get their butts handed to them by Madara.
oonoki did one move to sasuke on his own and it would have easily killed him if obito didn't intervene. and hiruzen would get his butt kicked at least as bad as oonoki, but probably more since oonoki was able to counter some of madara's attacks (giant meteors btw) what would hiruzen do vs a meteor?

Quote:
Not to say that they aren't formidable, but I haven't seen the likes of Oonoki do anything that trumps Sarutobi.
if you consider altering the weight of anything and particle style attacks on sarutobi's level... oonoki's got a double bloodline limit, sarutobi didnt even have one (not that's it's necessary, but it is an ability hiruzen couldn't have had and it's one of the most powerful abilities in the history of ninja). oonoki could have easily vaporized MS sasuke in one shot and he flew through the sky carrying a gigantic tortoise island... but yea, easily on par with what sarutobi did
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Old 2013-03-26, 01:06   Link #99
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Regarding the meteor, I remember Enma pushing the Nine Tails out of Konoha.

Well, Ounoki was only able to help slow the meteor down himself anyway.
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Old 2013-03-26, 05:29   Link #100
Hunter
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Really? because I haven't seen the current kages do much of anything but gang up on Sasuke and get their butts handed to them by Madara.

Not to say that they aren't formidable, but I haven't seen the likes of Oonoki do anything that trumps Sarutobi.

But like it was said earlier, Hashirama's power is the result of hype. In order for Madara to be a credible major villain, he must be a unmatchable threat. So for anyone to have been his rival they too would have to be depicted as insanely powerful, thus you have the current "God of Shinobi" Hashirama.

Heh. To think there was time where people actually wondered if Kakuzu defeated Shodaime. Though I guess technically the outcome of that fight is unknown
How many years have passed since the last time you read the beginning of this manga? Because at a guess I'd say that your memory of Sarutobi's actual feats is hazy at best. I'd go as far as to say that every single one of his actions cramped together are put to shame in front of a single pic of many of Oonoki's accomplishments which in turn are dwarfed by what Madara and Hashirama have done on panel.
Now I think Sarutobi's lack of prowess is more representative of the fact that he died early in the show instead of what his power is supposed to be within the story but it doesn't change the fact that if what he did on panel was all he had I'd not bet on him against many of nowaday Jounin. The power inflation over the last few hundreds chapters is just too big of a gap.

And Hashirama's power just hype? This very flashback has shown that he had the power to crush the Kyubi single handedly with ease. Look it's really that simple : whereas Sarutobi helped by all of Konoha couldn't put a scratch on the Kyubi, Madara and Hashirama made the previous ultimate power of the show look like a mere attack dog.
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Regarding the meteor, I remember Enma pushing the Nine Tails out of Konoha.

Well, Ounoki was only able to help slow the meteor down himself anyway.
The Kyubi is a little bigger than Gamabunta, the meteor was several orders of magnitude bigger than both of them together.
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