AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Light Novels > To Aru... Index [LN/M]

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2014-05-04, 13:31   Link #2301
LevelSeven
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post

number 1 is the one who holds the power of god while number 2 is the who touch the territory of god.

Isn't that both clear? both has the word "god" in it but I think its clear which is higher because the other one only manage to touch it while the other holds it.
it is like, someone touched the light and heat which is emitted by the sun (kakine) and the other one holds the sun itself (accel)

LATE EDIT: FROM ANOTHER THREAD:
Quote:
FROM TSUNADE 666

Touma could break Divine Punishment on a person but it will only stay awake. As long as he holds the part where its been affected (in this case the chest) but after removing his hands. The effect would probably kick in again. Probably. Because Divine Punishment acts as passive spell that attacks anyone that meets the requirement inside the affected area.
i doubt that this could work, as far as i understood D.P., it decreases the amount of oxygen whhich can be used by the body...
it limits the oxygen inside their lungs so that the body of them is forced to shut down....
it "scans"/"observes" the mind/emotions of the humans which are inside 'his' range and than affects them via stopping the necassary amount of oxygen.....it doesnt effect the mind
furthermore: as afar as i remember: he touched a anti-skill member who was affected by D.P. and he didnt woke up...
LevelSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-11, 03:18   Link #2302
LevelSeven
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
sorry for double posting
Quote:
´Does Fiamma and Vento still have their God's Right Seat power (the floating arm on Fiamma and Vento's KO magic)? I remember someone avoiding Touma's hand (because they knew about it) but I don't remember who or the scenario.

Even though Fiamma and Vento were punched by Touma they still have it right? Also wasn't Aqua cautious about coming into contact with his hand.
as far as i know:
vento didnt lost her DP, she only needs to recreate the cross which served as core for that spell
fiamma cant control his HR, it is like othinus 50/50 magic but far more unstable...
if he activates it, it will run berserk and create a huguh amount of destruction....
acqua sisnt wanted to touch his IB because it would temporary stop his abilitys, saint+ divine mother.... well, would this be a h2h i think a human acqua would still win agaisnt touma....
LevelSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-15, 17:36   Link #2303
Ainulindale
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Hi, I'm new in this community, and I was searching for a place to discuss all my absurd theories about Toaru and it's universe, so here I am. I'm not very sure if my ideas should stick here on this topic or in the one about theories, so I'll just split my post in the two threads. It's kinda of a spoiler, so if you haven't read the ones from NT10 don't open it.

Spoiler for Theories:


Thanks for those of you who had the strength to read all this crazy stuff that I wrote, you're free to ask if something is not clear (I know I've been a lot messy) and just don't take this as an absolute true but like an idea born by a twisted mind. You're also free to insult me if this makes you feel better, for now I'll just go to sleep since it's late night were I live. Tommorrow, if there is someone who wants to know more (I doubt it), I'll explain further my ideas in the Theories topic.
Ainulindale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-16, 04:10   Link #2304
LevelSeven
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
Spoiler for ainulindale:
LevelSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-17, 03:49   Link #2305
Tartare25
Bypolar Butterfly
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Quote:
Miracle => arisa, IB/IT, kreutune
Isn't Holy Right is same type of power as Imagine Breaker?
__________________
3.7.14.25.41.63.
Tartare25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-17, 04:07   Link #2306
LevelSeven
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tartare25 View Post
Isn't Holy Right is same type of power as Imagine Breaker?
im not really sure...

because of the things i know about the HR:
1. it gives the vessel (the body (fiamma)) a hugh amount of power
2. it allows him to use the miracles related to the right hand who was showed in christian legends
3. it has a time limit because fiamma cant control the output (seems to be related to magical knowledge, with index's help he was able to masster his HR)

similar:
1. both are special right hands
2. both are fueled by external sources
- HR: by the legends of the right hand + the believers of them
- IB: the wish of magicians for a undistorted world
3. both cant do anything alone
- HR: cant do anything if their isnt malice/hate around
- IB: cant do anything if their isnt anythign supernatural around

of course, this depents on the case that ollerus's explanation of IB is the truth....

=> in the end i still think that fiamma's HR is part of the "magic only" category, the same with othinus (even if she is a god, she didnt really reached a level of "over science and magic")

PS: i need to add another category,
divine (over science and magic): aiwass (maybe)
LevelSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-21, 04:30   Link #2307
dniv
I’m sorry, Kamijou-san!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
im not really sure...

because of the things i know about the HR:
1. it gives the vessel (the body (fiamma)) a hugh amount of power
2. it allows him to use the miracles related to the right hand who was showed in christian legends
3. it has a time limit because fiamma cant control the output (seems to be related to magical knowledge, with index's help he was able to masster his HR)

similar:
1. both are special right hands
2. both are fueled by external sources
- HR: by the legends of the right hand + the believers of them
- IB: the wish of magicians for a undistorted world
3. both cant do anything alone
- HR: cant do anything if their isnt malice/hate around
- IB: cant do anything if their isnt anythign supernatural around

of course, this depents on the case that ollerus's explanation of IB is the truth....

=> in the end i still think that fiamma's HR is part of the "magic only" category, the same with othinus (even if she is a god, she didnt really reached a level of "over science and magic")

PS: i need to add another category,
divine (over science and magic): aiwass (maybe)
From what I saw in volume 19, you should probably go with different dimensional being, instead of Divine being for the other category.
dniv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-22, 01:30   Link #2308
Doom_Paperclip
lethal office stationery
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
their wasnt a real explanation about why angels use telesma but i think that telesma and mana are the same things...
the difference is that mana is like water and telesma is like ice....
they are the same but still different which makes it so hard to control telesma since: 1 kg ice = 5 litre water (only as unrealistic example)...
the magician summon 5kg but he wasnt able to control the mass of the mana which he gained, his spells runs berserk and destroy his body, thie happened to acqua...
Angels use Telesma instead of Mana because Telesma is defined as the power of the phase of Heaven that flows through Angels. The other phases don't have Telesma, each phase has its own form of magical power. Asking why Angels have Telesma instead of Mana is like asking why plants have sap instead of blood.

Anyhow, much like tree sap and blood, while they are both similar in nature and function, they are ultimately different. They cannot be converted into each other like ice and water. That's why Telesma is hard to control. Mana is easy to influence because it comes from you, but Telesma is an alien power that won't automatically obey your will. You have to use your Mana to indirectly control the Telesma, which adds a layer of difficulty to the whole thing.

If you want, I can bring up the paragraphs of NT2 that prove this, but I'm feeling lazy right now and would rather not spend the effort. It's all in the lectures Birdway gave on magic. I even quoted some of the relevant passages before.

As for classifications, I don't think you can clearly split all of the powers in Index into clear categories. Magic and Esper powers are the two big categories, to the point where all the others are dwarfed in comparison, but the world of TAMNI is vast. There are probably dozens of unique powers out there that don't fit in any category but their own. Trying to fit all these unclassifiable powers into one big "third side" would be terribly reductionist.
__________________
I vow to expose at least one theory per post. Quality may vary.
Doom_Paperclip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-22, 13:02   Link #2309
Tartare25
Bypolar Butterfly
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Quote:
Telesma is defined as the power of the phase of Heaven that flows through Angels.
So... Is there some counterpart of it from other phases like Chakra for Hinduism for example?
__________________
3.7.14.25.41.63.
Tartare25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-22, 15:47   Link #2310
Ainulindale
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Now, that I've finished NT10 and I have some spare time, I can finally reply. I've made two systems in my mind after reading the last novel, one that I don't like but which is probably most true, and the one that I like the most but it's more about speculation. I'll explain first the fromer, then the latter (The speech also contains things from NT10, so you haven't read the novel yet, please don't read the following text if you don't want to get spoiled).

Spoiler for spoiler:
Ainulindale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-22, 22:47   Link #2311
Doom_Paperclip
lethal office stationery
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ainulindale View Post
Considering true the fact that Telesma is just a special power from the Christian phase, I will go on to say that AIM Field is the equivalent of Telesma from the pure world. This is explained in the fight between Touma and Marian: "Just as summoned angel was manifested using condensed Telesma, these rulers of the end were likely masses of type of the power stored in their respective religion or phase."
There are three flaws in this hypothesis:

1) It is heavily implied that IB is calibrated on the Pure World. However, it rejects AIM just as readily as Mana.

2) If AIM were the rule of the Pure World, then Aleister wouldn't have to go through the trouble of building an Artificial Heaven.

3) Here's a condensed explanation of part of the talk Tsuchimikado and Aleister at the end of OT6. Magic involves tons of conflicting religions, but they can all cooperate together because at heart, they follow the same rules. If you were to add a science phase, which follows completely different rules, to the mix, it would destroy that balance. Magic would stop working and all Magicians would self-destruct. If AIM represented the true nature of the Pure World, Magic would not have been allowed to rise in the first place.

Quote:
Aiwass and Kazakiri are the same, beings created by the aggregation of the AIM Field.
Kazakiri was created through AIM, but Aiwass was merely manifested through it. Aiwass can still exist beneath the surface even without AIM. Considering that it came into contact with Aleister before Academy City was founded, it is likely in the right conditions it can manifest through mediums other than AIM, perhaps in the form of a shading computer using global air currents like the antagonist in NT7 was trying to become.

Quote:
About Dark Matter, I would say that is a medium phase between AIM Field in it's basic form and the form that it takes when there is an artificial angel. Think of AIM Field as steam, if the temperature is not low enough to become ice, it will only become water.
I doubt it's that simple. There is no evidence, however, to either support or disprove this.

Quote:
I don't like this system because, at the end, science results being more powerful than magic since it belongs to the pure world, while I think the "ultimate power" is in the middle spot between the two forces.
Leaving aside your speculation about AIM, it is true that Science has an advantage over Magic. AIM can stop Magicians from using Magic, but Mana cannot stop Espers from using their powers. So far, all of the conflicts between the two sides have started with the Magic side going on the offensive because Science doesn't need to attack in order to win, it just needs to expand.

Quote:
And there are also some things that doesn't convince me at their fullest. (We're now going in the second system) Example, Ollerus stated to Gunha that the Gemstone could easily beat him if he could fully understands his power, Ollerus said this only because magic was created by the one who sought power after the Gemstones (which are from the pure world) or because Gemstones, in reality, have a much great power the dwells in them?
Ollerus said that maybe if Gunha understood his power, he could have won. He never said it would be easy. Also, there's no proof that Gemstones come from the Pure World, although we have yet to see IB used against a Gemstone power, so we really can't say for sure.

Quote:
I have not enough hints to say for sure that Gemstones belong also to the magic side, but, for what I remember, so I might be wrong, Gunha and Himegami are the only two espers that have some power that changed their physical structure, while the most of the espers developed by Academy City have their power doing something outside their body, not within it.
The Esper that Etzali impersonated, Unabara Mitsuki, had the power to use his level 4 Telekenisis to place himself in suspended animation by petrifying his own cells. Yeah, I don't know how that works either, but it's how he survived Etzali removing his flesh for his disguising spell. This disproves your point.

Quote:
For what I recall, Gunha is the only esper that can move faster than sound, (of course, Accelerator could go at that speed, but it's only because of his power, it's not that his body alone without his power can move at that tremendous speed), and why Himegami, which belongs to the science side, has a power that works only on beings of the magic side?
There is no proof that Gunha is reinforcing his body anywhere. He could simply be using his power to accelerate himself, just like the #1. As for Vampires, we only know that they exist, can turn other people into Vampires and that Himegami can kill them. We don't know nearly enough to classify them as Science or Magic.

Quote:
Another thing that doesn't add up is Aiwass, namely many hints regarding its nature. But first we have to talk about elements: we know that they are in disarray, even now there was a line in NT10 that stated the strange cold in Denmark, maybe Fiamma didn't accomplish his work at balancing the distortion.
Isn't this just because of global warming?

Quote:
We also know that there is a fifth element in the western magic in Toaru (Ether), and the fact that each one of the four Archangels rappresents an element. Four Archangel and Five Elements, so, shouldn't be there another Archangel? Now, talking about Aiwass, we know the other name of the Imaginary Number District (Five elements institution), its codename (DRAGON) and Aleister's magic name (Beast666). All this lead to one thing: Lucifer. For those of you who don't know the story, Lucifer was the most beautiful of angels and the one closest to god, but then he tried to overthrow the reign of god and thus was sent to hell. Lucifer in latin means "bringer of light" and is often decipted as the morning star or the planet Venus. In Aristotle's phylosophy we found aether, the fifth element, which is the substance of which planets are made of and it is also linked with light. Also, in the Apocalypse book Luficer is described as a dragon with seven heads (A hint to the 7 level5?) and also in the Inferno of Dante Luficer is described as a Dragon. This could also mean that Imagine Breaker is somehow releated to Aiwass, but I don't know how. Going on with this line of thoughts, the angel were at first not dyed in magic or science colours, but then with Ebraism and Christianity they were made part of the religion, so the disruption of elements started that way. I think that if the elements return to their proper place, Telesma will become at it's original state, which is an greater form of life force, like what I've written in the post above. All this was to explain that, in this second system, in which Telesma and AIM are complementary to each other, Aiwass is still a being with perfect physical future, capable of being both on the science side and in the magic side, while the other angels are shifted to the magic side, so they not retain their perfect physical form.
There is a flaw in this. Aiwass claimed that the term Dragon applied to itself more than Angel. Aiwass is not an Angel, just a being that resembles Angels to an extent.

There is nothing that suggests that Angels were Pure beings distorted by Magic, as opposed to beings that were created whole cloth when Christianity came into power.

Quote:
Based on this thoughts, I would now update the categories that I've written in the post above:

Only magic side -> Index ecc.
Magic and Physical on par -> Saint, God right's seat.
Physical side with Magic -> Vampires (maybe), Angels
Only Physical side -> Fraulein Kreutune
Physical side with Science -> Kazakiri, Aiwass (since it also has, in my opinion, some kind of esper powers)
Science and Physical on par -> Gemstones (In the first system), Holistic Esper (In the second, althrough I really don't know this, it is the only category that I don't know where to place and I like the symmetry of my schemes, so I place them here)
Science only -> Academy City's Espers.
Science and Magic on par -> Tsuchimikado, Aleister (He said in the Epilogue of NT10 that he made some modification to become not like those Magic Gods, maybe he was refering to the PCP, he's the boss of AC afterall, but this are only speculations)
Magic, Physical and Science on par: Gemstones (In the second system)
This classification seems really contrived to me given all the objections I made above. All I can say is, I don't agree with any of the arguments you used to make it.

Quote:
Accelerator is a particular case, of course he can cast spells but I think that his magic side is too weak compared to his science side, so he stays in the Science only category.
Accelerator cannot cast spells anymore than any other Esper can.

Quote:
But I would like to note that in the last novel he became tougher, so being able to sustain more than one of Touma's punches. An explanation to this could be the fact that he had wings, if what I've written in the post above is true (A more intense AIM Field makes the body stronger).
Another explanation is that after being punched so many times, Accelerator simply learned how to take a blow without staggering.

Quote:
Imagine Breaker is something that I could not place in this system yet, because we know too little about it, but If I have to make a bet I would place my money of it being related somehow to the Pure Gods.
Pure World perhaps, but "God" is a religious concept. There is no guarantee there are Gods in the Pure World.

Quote:
Finally, while the "normal" divine level is reached when one enter the Aeon of Horus, Miracle in this scheme stands on the top, I think that it is the power of the one that created the universe, the one that Christians calls God.
We have seen only one Miracle power, Fiamma's speeches about HR notwithstanding. I believe it's too early to be making conclusions like that.
__________________
I vow to expose at least one theory per post. Quality may vary.
Doom_Paperclip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-23, 14:21   Link #2312
LevelSeven
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Germany
Quote:
There is a flaw in this. Aiwass claimed that the term Dragon applied to itself more than Angel. Aiwass is not an Angel, just a being that resembles Angels to an extent.
didnt aiwass say that angel fits better than dragon??

Quote:
As for Vampires, we only know that they exist, can turn other people into Vampires and that Himegami can kill them. We don't know nearly enough to classify them as Science or Magic.
I agree, it is also possible to explain their existence with science methods, different dna -> different body etc. etc.

Quote:
So far, all of the conflicts between the two sides have started with the Magic side going on the offensive because Science doesn't need to attack in order to win, it just needs to expand.
to strengthen this more: magic itself is based on theorys/knowledge/systems/experiments/results/etc.
the magic side seems to be big but in reality it is still inside the science world....
not the religions but magic/mana/spells can never overcome the limit of "being inside science" even a magic god still has rules and systems which she needs to follow...

Quote:
Accelerator cannot cast spells anymore than any other Esper can.
he was able to refine life force into mana without seeing red, this is like: normal humans (espers) in comparison to a human who can fly (accel) (somehow)
a pretty high-class feat if you ask me....

Quote:
Another explanation is that after being punched so many times, Accelerator simply learned how to take a blow without staggering.
since he cant reflect gravitation while he lives his daily life it seems like his body started to "create" muscles, so that he can walk or hold and fire a gun with endurance for the backslash...
LevelSeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-23, 17:18   Link #2313
dniv
I’m sorry, Kamijou-san!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: California
Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post

since he cant reflect gravitation while he lives his daily life it seems like his body started to "create" muscles, so that he can walk or hold and fire a gun with endurance for the backslash...
Yeah, he basically just got stronger once he started relying on his powers less.

About Aiwass, I think he said artificial angel and dragon were more appropriate than angel.
dniv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-24, 06:34   Link #2314
Doom_Paperclip
lethal office stationery
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tartare25 View Post
So... Is there some counterpart of it from other phases like Chakra for Hinduism for example?
From the text we got in chapter 13 of NT10, yes. However, only Telesma was named, supposedly because all of the others hardly ever get used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
didnt aiwass say that angel fits better than dragon??
It was the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 19
“—Dragon, huh?”

That thing opened its mouth.

Though that thing was in a humanoid shape, Accelerator felt there was nothing more wrong than that thing being capable of human speech.

“That name is not exactly wrong, to a point. Rather, calling me an ‘angel’ is alright too… At least, it’s closer to the truth compared to the rumored ‘extraterrestrial life form’, ‘holy guardian angel’, ‘the true person who holds the secrets to modern Western magic organizations’ and wild ideas like those. Though, my existence, is something completely different from the angels recorded in the Bible. So, to more accurately describe my presence, the aforementioned word should be used.”
Aiwass clearly stated that Dragon fits it more than Angel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
he was able to refine life force into mana without seeing red, this is like: normal humans (espers) in comparison to a human who can fly (accel) (somehow)
a pretty high-class feat if you ask me....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume NT3
“That’s fine,” said Kuroyoru. “It doesn’t matter what kind of magic it is. It doesn’t have to have any real destructive power to it and I doubt I can perfectly pull it off from the little I overheard. That would be like watching someone perform heart surgery and then trying to do the same thing on your own. I’ll fail, but that’s not a problem. If failing leads to success, that’s not a problem at all.”

“What are you saying…?”

“I’m saying that I will be intentionally causing this side effect or rejection or whatever it is.” With a heavy thunk, Kuroyoru Umidori lowered the duct tape-wrapped arm to the ground. “I’m a cyborg. The extent of what counts as my body is extremely vague. Now, what if I could completely think of the objects I connect to my body as parts of my body?”

Kamijou heard a sound like a hard object creaking under stress.

At first he thought it was coming from Kuroyoru’s “arm”, but it was not.

“Wouldn’t that mean I could force that side effect on whatever object—whatever target—I wanted and destroy it?”

It came from the ground.

More specifically, it came from one of the saw tooth-like cliffs.

To make up for the “magic-like thing” that Kuroyoru Umidori, an esper, had activated, the rejection had appeared in the improvised arm and then spread to the ground beneath it.

As a result, the entire cliff collapsed.

The log house just barely remained behind the line, but everything beyond the line came crashing down. The silver uniformed mercenaries and magicians on that cliff were swallowed up and swept down into the sea down below.
This is easily ten times more impressive than anything Accelerator did, yet Umidori's power isn't nearly as special as his. Any Esper could do stuff like this with the right knowledge.
__________________
I vow to expose at least one theory per post. Quality may vary.
Doom_Paperclip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-24, 12:46   Link #2315
Ainulindale
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Quote:
There are three flaws in this hypothesis:

1) It is heavily implied that IB is calibrated on the Pure World. However, it rejects AIM just as readily as Mana.

2) If AIM were the rule of the Pure World, then Aleister wouldn't have to go through the trouble of building an Artificial Heaven.

3) Here's a condensed explanation of part of the talk Tsuchimikado and Aleister at the end of OT6. Magic involves tons of conflicting religions, but they can all cooperate together because at heart, they follow the same rules. If you were to add a science phase, which follows completely different rules, to the mix, it would destroy that balance. Magic would stop working and all Magicians would self-destruct. If AIM represented the true nature of the Pure World, Magic would not have been allowed to rise in the first place.
We know that Imagine Breaker is a reference point to the pure world, but we also know that is also a vessel to a greater power, so we can call the IB of Touma incomplete for now, while the "perfect form" of IB is the one that existed in the pure world. IB power for now is to negate supernatural things, but just because something belongs to the pure world doesn't mean that it can't be considered supernatural in the system of that world. AIM is something that belongs to that original world, but, in that system, is regarded as supernatural, thus being negated by IB. Aleister's plan (or what I think it is) is to create a worldwide AIM field to make magicans unable to cast spells (like what happened to Vento in Academy City Invasion Arc, but in a much more bigger scale), doing so, religion will crumble too and the different phases created during all this eras will shatter, leaving behind only the true original world. An example: if you have perfect vision and you put on your friend's glasses, you start to see things in a blurred way. The same goes to the pure world, which is the state of perfect vision, and the other religions or phases, which are the lens. There are two ways to return to your perfect vision, you shatter all the filters or you add different filters until you reach the initial state of perfect vision. What Aleister wants also to create is an artificial heaven, that in my opinion is something like that dimension in which those magic gods from NT10 live in, but since the artificial heaven belongs to the pure world's system, it can be tollerated. Magic was allowed to rise because the only thing that emits AIM naturally are Gemstones, who are something like 50 or so in the whole world, so naturally an AIM that envelops the whole world in not something which can exist.

Quote:
Kazakiri was created through AIM, but Aiwass was merely manifested through it. Aiwass can still exist beneath the surface even without AIM. Considering that it came into contact with Aleister before Academy City was founded, it is likely in the right conditions it can manifest through mediums other than AIM, perhaps in the form of a shading computer using global air currents like the antagonist in NT7 was trying to become.
If we have to believe the Aleister that really existed in our world, Aiwass manifestated possessing the body of Aleister's wife, and talked through it. So, as far as we know, Aiwass didn't have a corporal form prior of being manifestated through AIM.

Quote:
Ollerus said that maybe if Gunha understood his power, he could have won. He never said it would be easy. Also, there's no proof that Gemstones come from the Pure World, although we have yet to see IB used against a Gemstone power, so we really can't say for sure.
It was stated by Index in the first volume that Magic was created by the ones "who lacked power", while the ones who had power were the "Ability User", that is the japanese name of Espers (The term "esper" was created by fandom, Kamachi uses "Ability User"). Since we can assume that magic was created roughly at the same time of religion, so the different phases of the world, and that Gemstones are the natural "Ability User", we can say that Gemstones belongs to the Pure World. Also, about global warming, I don't think that it is that simple, maybe the disruption of elements is also something releated to the different phases of the world (I have a theory about this, but it's long and complicated, and it fits more to the other thread than this one).

Quote:
There is a flaw in this. Aiwass claimed that the term Dragon applied to itself more than Angel. Aiwass is not an Angel, just a being that resembles Angels to an extent.

There is nothing that suggests that Angels were Pure beings distorted by Magic, as opposed to beings that were created whole cloth when Christianity came into power.
The term Dragon applies more than angel since Aiwass stopped of being an Angel when it was rejected by God and thrown to hell, so it is more Dragon than angel, but Aiwass itself said that it can be considered something like an angel. About Angels belonging to the Pure world I thought about this: why FUSE=Kazakiri, Aiwass, Accelerator or even AIM Burst, who are totally unrelated to religion or the magic side, have angelic features such as halo or wings? Yes, Accelerator have very little knowledge of magic, but it is also something more than your average esper of AC. And about the toughness of his body maybe you're right, but we're talking of the Toaru universe, the world "simple" doesn't exist here.

Quote:
Pure World perhaps, but "God" is a religious concept. There is no guarantee there are Gods in the Pure World.
Well, you can can call then "supreme entity" if you want, but I think that they exist and they are the Gods of Thelema, the system that the real world Aleister created. Other than Aiwass, we had a quatotation of what is another of this god in that Side-story novel with a lot of foreshadowing (That" which writhes at one point in the Sahara), who is Choronzon, and that was evoked by the real life Aleister in the Sahara desert in 1909. For Vampires, Styil said that it is believed that they have an infinite amount of Mana, but since there are no evidence knowledge even between the magicans, it's still a mystery in which color they are dyed.
Ainulindale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-24, 22:14   Link #2316
OH&S
Index III was a mistake
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Age: 32
So Kamachi mentioned something in passing in the afterword that is actually quite important when it comes to speculation about future events:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NT10 Afterword
The opponent Kamijou Touma completely lost to was not a monster from the magic or science sides. It was a normal soldier who had gathered as much normal power as possible. This functions as an important brake in this series. If he can ever defeat someone like that without thinking, the series is as good as over.
So hypothetically, if Kamijou were to gain a new power in future novels it wouldn't be an attack type that allows him to fight with ease against the normal people with guns.

I can only think of 2 scenarios:

1. A sensory ability. Despite this being an easy choice, when you consider that Kamijou's PP is highly reliant on the data and information he gathers using his senses, it becomes a good fit for him.

2. An ability that only activates when in presence of and affects supernatural phenomena. Similar to the Imagine Breaker so it could be an extension of its power.

As much as Kamijou's fights are the best in the series, I feel like with the conclusion of the Gremlin Saga, Kamijou has probably reached the limits of what one can reasonably expect him to do. While his fighting style has become somewhat brutal I would like a new power on top of that. But not one that replaces his current fighting style but one that perfectly compliments it; thus the above two scenarios.

Any thoughts?
__________________
OH&S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-24, 22:26   Link #2317
Ravagerblade
The Fearless
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: "United" States
Quote:
Originally Posted by OH&S View Post
So Kamachi mentioned something in passing in the afterword that is actually quite important when it comes to speculation about future events:



So hypothetically, if Kamijou were to gain a new power in future novels it wouldn't be an attack type that allows him to fight with ease against the normal people with guns.

I can only think of 2 scenarios:

1. A sensory ability. Despite this being an easy choice, when you consider that Kamijou's PP is highly reliant on the data and information he gathers using his senses, it becomes a good fit for him.

2. An ability that only activates when in presence of and affects supernatural phenomena. Similar to the Imagine Breaker so it could be an extension of its power.

As much as Kamijou's fights are the best in the series, I feel like with the conclusion of the Gremlin Saga, Kamijou has probably reached the limits of what one can reasonably expect him to do. While his fighting style has become somewhat brutal I would like a new power on top of that. But not one that replaces his current fighting style but one that perfectly compliments it; thus the above two scenarios.

Any thoughts?
Kamachi is full of himself.

Explanation: Makes Touma look like he can't adapt to normal situations. To me it makes me feel like all Touma's good for is the Supernatural but thrust him into something without any of those and he's a fish out of water..... are you serious?

Maybe he should explain himself better or something. Is it that if he defeats a normal human with ease makes it bland? What does he mean without thinking? is it with guns? unarmed combat?

I think the writer is just being lazy so he doesn't have to develop Touma in that area, which by all right's Touma should be able to handle.

Define without thinking. That's what's got me the most miffed about.
__________________


“No, I don’t get it at all. I may claim to ‘understand’ Othinus, but I only know her as a girl. I don’t understand anything when it comes to her being a Magic God.” - Touma NT13
Ravagerblade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-24, 22:30   Link #2318
OH&S
Index III was a mistake
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Age: 32
^
My guess is that 'without thinking' equates to 'not a threat.' Those enemies can't become fodder to him.
__________________
OH&S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-24, 22:40   Link #2319
Ravagerblade
The Fearless
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: "United" States
Quote:
Originally Posted by OH&S View Post
^
My guess is that 'without thinking' equates to 'not a threat.' Those enemies can't become fodder to him.
Would that be one on one or one on multiple, he should be able to stand up to more than just 2-3 4-5 is near limit 6 would be pushing it. lolz If I have to be reminded that his style of only one fist for the most part feels degrading. I'll try and see what the future holds but dealing with normal people one on one and being them fairly easy shouldn't mean the series is good as over.
No I'll say it again if Touma can't adapt with all the experience he's had then I'm calling it a Diablo's Ex Machina asspull.
__________________


“No, I don’t get it at all. I may claim to ‘understand’ Othinus, but I only know her as a girl. I don’t understand anything when it comes to her being a Magic God.” - Touma NT13
Ravagerblade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2014-05-24, 23:12   Link #2320
OH&S
Index III was a mistake
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Age: 32
Im actually going to take Kamachi's side on this. Kamijou has never been able to fight with multiple people at the same time. He can definitely win a 1vs1, take caution in a 1vs2 but runs away in a 1vs3 or more.

Though NT7 can be used as a clue to how Kamachi may want Kamijou to develop. He can still oneshot many of the heroes he comes across but the PP he uses to survive is only effective in a 1vs1 fight.

But none of his skills are effective against a higly experienced professional with a gun. The fact that Kamijou is effective against certain kinds of opponents and abysmal against others serves as a good balance for his capabilities. I'd rather him be nicely balanced than be an overpowered male power fantasy.

As for the thinking aspect; Kamijou has never had an easy fight (minus Mikoto lol). He has always had to rely on his critical reasoning skills and effective use of his IB to win with the PP being the greatest expression of this. The PP being the most valuable ability that Kamijou has is entirely in line with the themes that the Toaru Series wants to promote and is built on.

If the thinking disappears, then the series is as good as over. I know exactly what he means.
__________________
OH&S is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hard science

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.