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Cherry_Lover · 2014-09-01, 10:11

Ah, sorry, I was confused about the spoiler rules in different threads. It seems like this one allows game spoilers as long as they are spoiler-tagged.

So, in answer to the question:

Spoiler for HF:

Brother Coa · 2014-09-01, 10:22

Yeah, Grail over time became vessel that hold all the worlds evil. Because Humans are like that, they create something with wonderful in design only to f**k it up later because they are not perfect beings.

The Cherry_Lover answer makes me wonder?

What would happened if Jesus was heroic spirit and he touched the Grail Mud?
Would he became corrupted or would the Grail Mud burn out instead? Because he is like, son of God?

GDB · 2014-09-01, 10:38

And that's why gods cannot become Servants.

Brother Coa · 2014-09-01, 11:01

He is not God, he is son of God. There is a difference.
Not as powerful as dad but powerful nonetheless.
So, would he became corrupted or not if was to touch the Grail mud?

Cherry_Lover · 2014-09-01, 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Yeah, Grail over time became vessel that hold all the worlds evil. Because Humans are like that, they create something with wonderful in design only to f**k it up later because they are not perfect beings.

Actually, no, it's not "over time".

Spoiler for HF:

Quote:

The Cherry_Lover answer makes me wonder?

What would happened if Jesus was heroic spirit and he touched the Grail Mud?
Would he became corrupted or would the Grail Mud burn out instead? Because he is like, son of God?

Well, presumably he'd be able to resist it at very least, as Gil could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

He is not God, he is son of God. There is a difference.
Not as powerful as dad but powerful nonetheless.

Actually, according to Christian mythology, Jesus is both the son of God and, also, God himself. So, on that basis, he probably could not be summoned.

Quote:

So, would he became corrupted or not if was to touch the Grail mud?

It's not clear. Being the son of a god certainly doesn't make you immune to corruption, but Jesus might be special in that regard, due to his inherent anti-corrupting nature.

GDB · 2014-09-01, 11:14

I didn't say God, I said gods. Unless you intend to argue that the likes of Zeus do not exist in the TypeMoon universe, despite Heracles existing and Iskander having some level of divinity.

A god in TypeMoon merely means they have 100% divinity. Jesus would be in this category.

Cherry_Lover · 2014-09-01, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

I didn't say God, I said gods. Unless you intend to argue that the likes of Zeus do not exist in the TypeMoon universe, despite Heracles existing and Iskander having some level of divinity.

A god in TypeMoon merely means they have 100% divinity. Jesus would be in this category.

Well, it's not quite that simple. Rider (Medusa), for example, is said to have once been a goddess, and Heracles was deified by Zeus when he died.

GDB · 2014-09-01, 11:34

Medusa lost her divinity, though. Heracles is a weird case, since like you said he does become a god, but most of his legend is from pre-godhood, and becoming a god isn't really that big a part of it.

Cherry_Lover · 2014-09-01, 11:39

My point is that Heracles does not have 100% divinity, and yet became a god. Being a god just means you are a god, the divinity stat is just a measure of how close to being a god you are.

GDB · 2014-09-01, 11:42

But if divinity is how close to being a god you are, then certainly Heracles as a god would have 100% divinity. Otherwise, he's not really a god.

It just means he was 67% a god throughout his legend (and how he was summoned), then after ascending became 100% a god.

Or was it Gilgamesh who was 67%... I know it was A rank, but forget his exact percentage.

Cherry_Lover · 2014-09-01, 13:11

Gil is A+, because he's 67% divine, yes.

My point is, though, that divinity is just a measure of how much "god" you are. So, whilst I guess you are right that having 100% divinity would by definition make you a true god, divinity is defined as "how god-like you are", so saying that being a god merely means you have "100% divinity" is basically saying "being a god means you are a god". It's an utterly meaningless statement.

Rising Dragon · 2014-09-01, 13:34

In Type-MOON, the original Angra Mainyu wasn't actually a god, but a young man sacrificed by his village to ease the minds of his people. This young man was apparently the basis of the legend of Angra Mainyu.

Jesus could be another case like that, a man purportedly thought of as a god, while in actually just being a man. If that is the case, his summoning would be possible, and his abilities would likely stem from what the religion said he could do.

Herakles might also be a similar case, having started out as a man himself.

Cherry_Lover · 2014-09-01, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Jesus could be another case like that, a man purportedly thought of as a god, while in actually just being a man. If that is the case, his summoning would be possible, and his abilities would likely stem from what the religion said he could do.

He could be. However, since that is pretty much exactly how Islam describes him, I'd expect that to annoy quite a few people....

Stanfoo · 2014-10-25, 01:12

Was reading up on Caliburn and read it was destroyed because Saber fought dishonorably. Any more details on that and how she fought dishonorably?

Rev Okkin · 2014-10-25, 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

In Type-MOON, the original Angra Mainyu wasn't actually a god, but a young man sacrificed by his village to ease the minds of his people. This young man was apparently the basis of the legend of Angra Mainyu.

Jesus could be another case like that, a man purportedly thought of as a god, while in actually just being a man. If that is the case, his summoning would be possible, and his abilities would likely stem from what the religion said he could do.

So if summoning and allowing the soul of Angra Maiya (represents all the evil in the world) to reach the Grail corrupts it, then summoning and allowing the soul of something that represents all the good in the world like Jesus for example to reach the already corrupt Grail would negate the corruption and restore the Grail to as it should be like in the 1st and 2nd HGW or would it not work because of another reason?

GDB · 2014-10-25, 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stanfoo

Was reading up on Caliburn and read it was destroyed because Saber fought dishonorably. Any more details on that and how she fought dishonorably?

The only information there is a hint from the manga, where I believe it showed her basically using citizens as human shields against an enemy or letting an enemy raze a town to trap them or something. It's been a long time since I saw it so I might be mistaken on the exact circumstance, but it showed it starting to rebel against her (cut her hand or something) due to an action she took.

Rising Dragon · 2014-10-25, 13:53

You might be able to figure out something by looking at the original Arthurian legend and figuring out when Caliburn broke, but in some versions of the legend, Caliburn and Excalibur are the same sword, given by the Lady of the Lake, so you might have some trouble finding the actual event.

Touko · 2014-10-26, 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev Okkin

So if summoning and allowing the soul of Angra Maiya (represents all the evil in the world) to reach the Grail corrupts it, then summoning and allowing the soul of something that represents all the good in the world like Jesus for example to reach the already corrupt Grail would negate the corruption and restore the Grail to as it should be like in the 1st and 2nd HGW or would it not work because of another reason?

It is much more complicated than that. Angra Mainyu is not just a soul, but closer to a concept. The soul of the boy is pretty benign, but the curse that soul bears wishes to eradicate humanity. The Grail is a colourless wish-granting machine, and it just accepted the wish for "All the World's Evil" and made it its overarching directive.

Right now, the Grail is essentially Angra Mainyu, more specifically the gestation pod of Angra Mainyu. It is trying to incarnate the concept of "All the World's Evil".

If you try to summon Jesus (which is impossible, since Jesus is part of the Trinity of God), you will just end up with something evil.

Rising Dragon · 2014-10-26, 13:06

Reread the responses before that--the idea of Jesus being summoned is under the theory that he was a mortal man, just like Angra Mainyu was. Herakles may be in that same boat, where the divinity was more from the legend than the man himself. All unconfirmed, but Rev's questioning is down that line of theory.

Phantom · 2014-10-26, 18:27

Very dumb question here from someone who has never watched a single clip of Fate series.
Will the current anime that is airing right now end in a happy ending?

2014-09-01, 10:11	Link #4981
Cherry_Lover Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Age: 39	Ah, sorry, I was confused about the spoiler rules in different threads. It seems like this one allows game spoilers as long as they are spoiler-tagged. So, in answer to the question: Spoiler for HF: In the HF route of the Visual Novel, several characters get corrupted as a result of contact with the Grail mud via Sakura. That is exactly the same process, in concept, as would happen if you threw a servant into the Grail Mud. So, the answer is that, if you were to throw Saber into the Grail Mud, she would turn Dark as she did in HF. __________________ Come to forums.darksidemoon.net, a new Type-Moon forum.

2014-09-01, 11:39	Link #4989
Cherry_Lover Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Age: 39	My point is that Heracles does not have 100% divinity, and yet became a god. Being a god just means you are a god, the divinity stat is just a measure of how close to being a god you are. __________________ Come to forums.darksidemoon.net, a new Type-Moon forum.

2014-09-01, 13:11	Link #4991
Cherry_Lover Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Age: 39	Gil is A+, because he's 67% divine, yes. My point is, though, that divinity is just a measure of how much "god" you are. So, whilst I guess you are right that having 100% divinity would by definition make you a true god, divinity is defined as "how god-like you are", so saying that being a god merely means you have "100% divinity" is basically saying "being a god means you are a god". It's an utterly meaningless statement. __________________ Come to forums.darksidemoon.net, a new Type-Moon forum.

2014-09-01, 13:34	Link #4992
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	In Type-MOON, the original Angra Mainyu wasn't actually a god, but a young man sacrificed by his village to ease the minds of his people. This young man was apparently the basis of the legend of Angra Mainyu. Jesus could be another case like that, a man purportedly thought of as a god, while in actually just being a man. If that is the case, his summoning would be possible, and his abilities would likely stem from what the religion said he could do. Herakles might also be a similar case, having started out as a man himself. __________________

2014-10-25, 13:53	Link #4997
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	You might be able to figure out something by looking at the original Arthurian legend and figuring out when Caliburn broke, but in some versions of the legend, Caliburn and Excalibur are the same sword, given by the Lady of the Lake, so you might have some trouble finding the actual event. __________________

2014-09-01, 10:22	Link #4982
Brother Coa Banned Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Holy Terra	Yeah, Grail over time became vessel that hold all the worlds evil. Because Humans are like that, they create something with wonderful in design only to f**k it up later because they are not perfect beings. The Cherry_Lover answer makes me wonder? What would happened if Jesus was heroic spirit and he touched the Grail Mud? Would he became corrupted or would the Grail Mud burn out instead? Because he is like, son of God?

2014-09-01, 10:38	Link #4983
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	And that's why gods cannot become Servants.

2014-09-01, 11:01	Link #4984
Brother Coa Banned Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Holy Terra	He is not God, he is son of God. There is a difference. Not as powerful as dad but powerful nonetheless. So, would he became corrupted or not if was to touch the Grail mud?

2014-09-01, 11:14	Link #4986
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	I didn't say God, I said gods. Unless you intend to argue that the likes of Zeus do not exist in the TypeMoon universe, despite Heracles existing and Iskander having some level of divinity. A god in TypeMoon merely means they have 100% divinity. Jesus would be in this category.

2014-09-01, 11:34	Link #4988
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	Medusa lost her divinity, though. Heracles is a weird case, since like you said he does become a god, but most of his legend is from pre-godhood, and becoming a god isn't really that big a part of it.

2014-09-01, 11:42	Link #4990
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	But if divinity is how close to being a god you are, then certainly Heracles as a god would have 100% divinity. Otherwise, he's not really a god. It just means he was 67% a god throughout his legend (and how he was summoned), then after ascending became 100% a god. Or was it Gilgamesh who was 67%... I know it was A rank, but forget his exact percentage.

2014-10-25, 01:12	Link #4994
Stanfoo Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2013	Was reading up on Caliburn and read it was destroyed because Saber fought dishonorably. Any more details on that and how she fought dishonorably?

2014-10-26, 13:06	Link #4999
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Reread the responses before that--the idea of Jesus being summoned is under the theory that he was a mortal man, just like Angra Mainyu was. Herakles may be in that same boat, where the divinity was more from the legend than the man himself. All unconfirmed, but Rev's questioning is down that line of theory. __________________

2014-10-26, 18:27	Link #5000
Phantom Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012	Very dumb question here from someone who has never watched a single clip of Fate series. Will the current anime that is airing right now end in a happy ending?