Japan Earthquake and Tsunami (March 11, 2011)

[solomon]

Forgot Phone info;

Land Line services are cut to the rate of 879,000 fixed land lines and many public lines in Hokkaido and Tohoku are down as well.

Cell Phone service isn't much better the NTT Docmo (sp?) saying service is down or really slow, KDDI and Softbank in similar situation.

[Random32]

Originally Posted by Jinto

Very funny, on which planet are you living? Besides, the earthquake triggered the problem not the resulting tsunami.

edit: The earthquake triggered the shut down. Without power the cooling cycle cannot run, hence there are diesel generators for emergency power supply of the power plant's crucial systems. Though it was the tsunami that made the diesel generators fail after an hour. Chances are it would not have been that bad if they had it just kept running.



There was an oxyhydrogen explosion in one of the Fukushima blocks, which is only possible if zirkonium of the fuel rods reacts with the coolant water of the inner cooling cycle (which is supposed to be a closed cycle). There must have been temperatures of over 900°C (so there was at least a partial melt down). This tells more than one thing:

1) radioactive coolant leaked (not too serious, since activated water (higher deuterium/tritium isotope rate) will have a short radioactive half-life) .

2) radioactive fuel contaminated the leaking coolant. This is the nasty stuff, that has a very long radioactive half-life. That stuff was and probably is still leaking from the melted fuel rods. It doesn't help, that they use ocean water and boron as coolant now, this will only further contaminate the stuff they pump in.

3) According to rrw, there was a radiation level of 1 milli Sv over a period of 1 minute for a certain time. Since most of the coolant evaporated the stuff is now in the atmosphere. As a consequence the radiation levels become more normal on ground.

4) The fact, that the power plant cannot be shut down fast enough (before the cooling system reaches critical temperature levels) in an emergency, shows that they were not well prepared for a disaster like this. This is like gambling with the unkown. You design something and expect it to work. Typically you cannot stress test an emergency shut down. And even if you could, it is debatable if a 40 year old reactor will perform like a new one in an emergency scenario.

5) They say the reactor casing is intact, when it clearly leaked coolant (or at least the H2 part of it). So, "intact" is a half truth at best. I don't know why this is played down by the officials, maybe to counter a panic... its understandable, since the leaked radiation is nowhere high enough to instandly kill people in surrounding area. But it can cause health issues (leukemia/cancer) when you are exposed to the leaked stuff (ref point 2 - radioactive fuel) for years.

6) If I was living near the power plant, I would move somewhere else.

0. The tsunami is the problem. If it were just the quake, there would be no problem since the diesel generators would be working to keep coolant moving and no one would be freaking out, just like no one seems to be freaking about all the other reactors in Japan.

4. The reactors shut down as soon as the quake started. There is still residual heat to be moved out though. You can't engineer around that, at least at current technology levels. Hopefully, the future has a solution.

5. The reactor casing is intact. They just vented it to help keep pressure inside of it under control. Though by no means standard procedure, it isn't as dangerous as sensationalist media would like to have you believe

btw. I think all engineers of nuclear reactors should learn from Fukushima. The Fukushima reactors relied on diesel generators to keep coolant moving when it shut down. These diesel generators weren't designed to handle being plowed into by a huge wave, and thus started failing. I think Fukushima reactors are going to be replaced soon, I do hope they don't repeat this mistake again.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

This is what I was fearing about taking this event as an example that nuclear power is dangerous.
I would like to ask when was the last time Germany was struck by a M8.8 earthquake and when was the last time they were struck by a 10 meter high tsunami.
As I have posted numerous time this is an once in a thousand years event.
Stop using it as an example to push your political agenda.

I agree. I've been following German news coverage of the reactor incident and while they do provide some good info, there appear to be various interest groups who seemed jumped at the "opportunity" to press their anti-nuclear-power agenda with a nice dose of fear mongering. Part of the talk also seems to be grounded in political interests, as some regional elections are coming up. Regardless of one's stance on the nuclear power-issue, the way some people appear to try to bank in on the incident at this point in time leaves a rather bad taste, to be honest.

[Master_Yoma]

Why when some disaster happens the US new media only focus on it. Its just so boring I would like to see come coverage on Libya just to brake this up

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by Master_Yoma

Why when some disaster happens the US new media only focus on it. Its just so boring I would like to see come coverage on Libya just to brake this up

LOL
Here in Japan all channel have been broadcasting the same thing for the past 48 hours. One silver lining, NO CMs.

[Claies]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

LOL
Here in Japan all channel have been broadcasting the same thing for the past 48 hours. One silver lining, NO CMs.

At least Japan has funny CMs. American adverts is one primary reason why I don't plan to own a TV when I move out.

On a serious note, here's hoping my Japanese teacher's family and friends are okay. I'll be seeing him on Monday. The devastation has been a pain to watch, had NHK up on Nico Nico Live since a few hours after it all started.

Haven't been paying attention to the thread, but it seems that experts (of some level... it's a TV show after all) have known with great certainty that this quake would happen (~3:30): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwrCF...eature=related

[solomon]

Japan's newscast style is overall much more straight laced and restrained then American style casting. I kind of like it. The commerical networks are somewhat looser but nowhere near as theatrical as the american counterparts. (at least in regards to coverage here).

Cable news networks still generally do an ok job in terms of disaster coverage but once again theatrics and a lack of restraint in the delivery kinda gets to you (they really go out of their way to "empathize" with the viewer, which is honorable but I prefer the Japanese style of not injecting themselves personally into the newscast).

This is first time I have seen Legal streaming of Japanese media. Even listened to NHK Radio one. I understand TV restrictions but I can listen to BBC, Radio France, ABC (Aussie) Radio, and various other nations domestic services.

Is there some reason Japan doesn't stream it's content like other countries?

[liquidmetal]

It doesn't sound great over there. Seems there is a possibility meltdown has occured at Fukushima plant 1. Hope they can sort it out asap

[Malkuth]

Also NHK is public, so it can be much more objectional, more or less same is true for BBC (as long as they do not touch national policy), unlike private networks in the majority of EU and America, where it is impossible to disentagle news reports from the owners' interests and populist rhetoric.

[Claies]

Originally Posted by solomon

This is first time I have seen Legal streaming of Japanese media. Even listened to NHK Radio one. I understand TV restrictions but I can listen to BBC, Radio France, ABC (Aussie) Radio, and various other nations domestic services.

Is there some reason Japan doesn't stream it's content like other countries?

They've been doing this one rather openly. You can find two major TV channels (NHK and Fuji) that have been streaming nonstop on Nico Nico Douga since a couple hours after the quake. They've allowed users to view these without having to log in to free accounts, which is required for regular videos. My understanding is that Nico Nico Douga even set up a stream of a small panel of their own staff giving telephone interviews.

NHK: http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv43120232
Fuji: http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv43092806

Right now they're repeating between damage/death reports, rescue efforts, and the containment situation at the nuclear power plants. It was a lot more frantic and reaction-based on Thursday morning.

They *still* have these 10000 people unaccounted for in that town. I'm rather worried that it's taking rescuers so long to look for them (or tabulate numbers in shelters, which they've been slowly doing).

TV footage, as it happened. You can see some of the early warning systems come into effect in the middle of a cabinet meeting - they feel it a minute after:

[anyme]

No news is good news. But that make no money for news organizations.


I wondered
Could nuke warheads in silos can be exploded by earthquake?

[solomon]

At best this is true, but various public networks can possible fall under government pressure or be very close to government interests.

For the former, it is actually alledged that NHK fell in line with Shinzo Abe's focus on Japanese abductees and other various NK related controversies. For the later, it was historically said that RAI in Italy was too close to the government to the point that each channel reflected different editorial policy (Rai 1= Christian Democrats, 2= Socialists, 3= Communists).

Still respect Euro style public broadcasters in ethos and largely practice.

Any way somewhat more back on topic;

In a wierd sense of irony, the Yomiuri Shinbun actually ran a little blurb commenting on how heavy handed US media has approached the nuclear situation. It makes reference to the New York Times saying things like "The Emergency Situation is at it's worst" and TV casters being like "How will they prevent the next Chernobyl?".

Here's the link for those interested and Japanese literate;

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/world/news/...htm?from=main4
(again apologize for rough translation, I am a noob).

US TV is made of hype and bluster so I guess it proves my previously made point.

Yet, Japanese govt is probably witholding information so truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.

***

Wow, thanks Caies, was waiting for something like that (bit of a news junkie). Amazing yet heart wrenching footage.

[Claies]

Originally Posted by anyme

No news is good news. But that make no money for news organizations.


I wondered
Could nuke warheads in silos can be exploded by earthquake?

IIRC, the warheads are completely disarmed with multiple safety switches until given the direct order to fire. Not much short of maybe another nuke can set one off in its silo. NATO air forces have in the past accidentally crashed planes with warheads on them without them going off.

Apparently (uncited), a silo exploded, sent its warhead flying off the missile, into the air, and back to the ground... and the warhead stayed intact. http://www.themilitarystandard.com/m...ckaccident.php

[flying ^]

i wonder if I'm the only one here watching streams from Fuji TV...

[Claies]

For the past ~2 hours...

Fuji TV: They're preparing to vent Reactor 1 Unit #3 (I think Unit #1 was the one whose concrete building exploded earlier today). Dead+missing count revised to 2800. Picture explanations (they make colored posterboards really fast o_o) of the reactor design and current plant status. #1 is inundated with seawater, while they're trying to recover #2's automatic cooling capabilities.

NHK: 10000 not accounted for, 380000 sheltered. Tabulating shelter populations. Interviewed a tearful woman as she placed a missing person notice at a public notice board. Shinkansen active, banks reopening.

(Japanese forum members: Which channel adheres more closely to government reports? The casualty reports wildly differ at the moment.)

[Shinji103]

What's even more sad about people from out of the country is that there are people and anime blogs complaining about the earthquake+tsunami map that's being shown on anime episodes that aired today, namely Oniichan no koto nanka.

Big whoop. A map about the disaster that killed over 1000+ that covers a small part of the screen. Man up, already. *sigh*

[solomon]

Originally Posted by flying ^

i wonder if I'm the only one here watching streams from Fuji TV...

I've been flipping between NHK and TBS mainly.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

out of curiosity who has started to stock on water and emergency supplies?

i always have water and instant noodles stock up in my office.

I live in the Pacific Northwest... earthquake supplies are standard for anyone with a clue here. We even have them in more than one place around the house to improve chances of getting to them if the house is severely damaged. Noodles, rice, canned goods (that don't require an opener), comm gear (wind up), medkit, flashlights (windup), etc. - stored in weather/critter proof boxes.

My current weak points are - hot water heaters are in the basement, could be difficult to get to for water supply. Need emergency tents/tarp in case house is unliveable and cars are not usable as shelter.

[achirist]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

Stop using it as an example to push your political agenda.

You first. It's great to know that the people minimizing concerns about radiation are really just pro-nuclear.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by achirist

You first. It's great to know that the people minimizing concerns about radiation are really just pro-nuclear.

Its pretty easy to get knee-jerk about it when one hears absolute nonsense spouted over and over by the anti-nuclear people who can't tell nuclear power from ghosts, goblins, and witches. I love discussing the topic with pro and anti people who actually study the subject. I *hate* discussing it with people who see witches everywhere or people who blow off all safety concerns in a kind worship mindset. I just keep thinking that "risk analysis" should be taught from kindergarten on but hey we can't even get science taught.

Nuclear power can be very dangerous... no expense should be spared in engineering plans for various disaster scenarios. So far the only *mistake* I've seen is that they had not considered a backup for the cooling system diesel generator system backups.