Japan Earthquake and Tsunami (March 11, 2011)

[RRW]

^ where are you anyway. i think i can locate closest NGO

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by rrw

^ where are you anyway. i think i can locate closest NGO

SEA. I -know- all the closest NGOs here but they are either Christian groups (which I don't support because of them preaching more than working when handling crises) or donation drives, and the Red Cross site isn't updated.

OTOH the SCDF (Civil Defence) only sent 5 officers to do rescue work. Like that Haitian disaster, the politicians apparently talked more than they did anything.

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

1.No they vented gas from the vessel to release pressure. The vessel is intact.
2.Yes partial melting of fuel rod is speculated by experts since cesium had been detected.
...

Again, the inner cycle is supposed to be a closed cycle. If they vent it, it is no longer a closed cycle (and therefore sealed or intact... if it was intact it would not have been necessary to vent it). If the inner coolant was contaminated with radioactive fuel before it leaked, the radioactive fuel is in parts outside the power plant now. If they flood the vessel with other stuff now, it will be likely contaminated with fuel too (what are they going to do with it afterwards?).

Thats my whole point, I guess you see things from a different perspective. Certainly we both interprete "intact" in a different way.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

OTOH the SCDF (Civil Defence) only sent 5 officers to do rescue work. Like that Haitian disaster, the politicians apparently talked more than they did anything.

Which is frankly bull.....5 men....what the hell do our leaders think they're trying to do?

At least send a military unit....

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by Jinto

Again, the inner cycle is supposed to be a closed cycle. If they vent it, it is no longer a closed cycle (and therefore sealed or intact... if it was intact it would not have been necessary to vent it). If the inner coolant was contaminated with radioactive fuel before it leaked, the radioactive fuel is in parts outside the power plant now. If they flood the vessel with other stuff now, it will be likely contaminated with fuel too (what are they going to do with it afterwards?).

Thats my whole point, I guess you see things from a different perspective. Certainly we both interprete "intact" in a different way.

AGAIN I will give you the fact.
They are venting gas to relieve pressure from the container SO it will not explode.
The container has three four shells the outer building which is gone now, the outer vessel which suspends the container with water flooding the floor in case of a melt down. The suspended container has a out shell made of concrete and the inner core container made out of steel.
The flooding of sea water is in the vessel NOT the inner core container.
The vessel is intact the outer shell is intact the inner core is intact.
What is not intact is the outer building.

THERE IS NO DANGER AT THE MOMENT of breach inner,outer core container nor vessel.

THAT IS THE FACT.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Which is frankly bull.....5 men....what the hell do our leaders think they're trying to do?

At least send a military unit....

Nothing. They are having elections this year, and they don't want to lose brownie points for "taking part in an issue that is of no concern to theirs".

Deploying the military (which is made largely up of NSFs) will spark backlash from their parents, but I think that the soldiers actually wanted to do something different rather than run through houses shooting target boards inside all day long.

[Tyabann]

Now that SanCom's joined the fearmongering it's going to be even more difficult to contain the misinformation...

[JokerD]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Which is frankly bull.....5 men....what the hell do our leaders think they're trying to do?

At least send a military unit....

Err... 5 men and 5 dogs. Anyway, the help being sent is dependent on what their government wants. It's not like we can fly a C130 there and airdrop a military unit in to help you know...

I believe our rescue unit was in NZ for THAT earthquake and just returned last week, last I heard, half the unit was still in NZ helping with recovery.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by JokerD

Err... 5 men and 5 dogs. Anyway, the help being sent is dependent on what their government wants. It's not like we can fly a C130 there and airdrop a military unit in to help you know...

I believe our rescue unit was in NZ for THAT earthquake and just returned last week, last I heard, half the unit was still in NZ helping with recovery.

There are usually 3-4 units within the SCDF that are overseas deployable, which they can send 2. Unless they deployed 2 units in NZ, they wouldn't have simply deployed a 5-man K9 to Japan. Then again, the JGDSF would be doing the heavy lifting, so these K9 men simply have to "mark" spots for the former to pull out.

Besides the C-130 can't fly past to Japan without going through Malaysia, and being a military craft, the RMAF would have scrambled and the PAS would be making noise.

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

AGAIN I will give you the fact.
They are venting gas to relieve pressure from the container SO it will not explode.

Which means is functionally not intact as it is supposed to not leak anything, not even venting. Do you get it now? You just don't want to understand it?

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

The container has three four shells the outer building which is gone now,

And typically meant to contain the stuff that was vented from the inner cycles, which failed.

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

the outer vessel which suspends the container with water flooding the floor in case of a melt down.

So, you are essentially saying... they vented the inner containment, and radioactive gas (and maybe parts of the fuel) was leaking in that event, yet when they fill the outer containment with water - you know the outer containment that must have been most contaminated with the inner coolant as it was released... is now perfectly clean...

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

The suspended container has a out shell made of concrete and the inner core container made out of steel.

Just because something is structurally intact from the outside, does not mean it is intact from the inside and more impoartant in this case... functionally intact. It reached critical limits and had to be vented, when this happens something is seriously wrong inside the containment, so that the containment can no longer do what it is supposed to do: contain the inner coolant which under normal conditions must be sealed off from the outside (a closed loop system). Of course the containment vessel can be structurally intact (for the time being). But it failed in what it was supposed to do (but there are several containment layers to prevent bad stuff becoming worse... but the outer containment failed too).

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

The flooding of sea water is in the vessel NOT the inner core container.

So the vessel remained uncontaminated after the venting, you really think so?

Besides the core is filled with boron, I don't know when they are going to decomission that thing, but I doubt it will be a "clean" deconstruction.

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

The vessel is intact the outer shell is intact the inner core is intact.
What is not intact is the outer building.

If it was "intact", they could simply resume power generation with it in the next hours. So, much for your concept of "intact".

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

THERE IS NO DANGER AT THE MOMENT of breach inner,outer core container nor vessel.

THAT IS THE FACT.

But I was never debating that, don't you understand? I was talking about long term risks in the region.

[Tri-ring]

I give up.
What ever you say.

[RRW]

Basic Nuclear Plant Safety Primer for Stupid Goons

The Fukushima Daiichi power plant is a Boiling Water Reactor. It is both moderated (what causes fission) and cooled (what stops the nuclear fuel/waste from getting so hot it melts) by water.

The plant was scrammed (immediately stopped) after the earthquake by inserting control rods (boron-infused 'rods' that prevent further fissions from taking place (by eating up all the neutrons necessary to initiate fission). This happened successfully. The plant is "shut down."

However, after the plant is shut down, there are still certain elements called "delayed neutron precursors" that will STILL released neutrons for some time period after the plant is shut down. These are what cause heat to accrue in a reactor that should theoretically be "shut down". This is why cooling needs to be provided in a typical 2nd generation light-water reactor (what most reactors in the world are) for a good while after shutdown.

Without cooling water, the likely "worst case" will be the reactor pressure vessel (RPV) building up heat, which builds up pressure, which could cause a rupture of the vessel. The fuel rods will spill out radioactive contents, fires might break out, and the reactor is basically a lost cause.

And how does that affect the general populace in terms of radioactive dose?
-Not at all.

The RPV is surrounded by a containment facility designed from the ground up to withstand everything short of hydrogen bombs. Given the semi-spherical distance from the RPV an explosion would have to travel to break through the containment vessel, it is fundamentally impossible (given the energy density the RPV is capable of containing) for there to be straight up "radioactive smoke" or such getting outside of containment. The containment building is constructed to prevent EXACTLY this emergency.

So while this is a worrying emergency, and could represent billions of lost dollars a mess to clean up should the WORST come about, it will still not be another Chernobyl. And given the efforts underway to provide cooling and the fact that the fuel rods are still not exposed to air (When the real danger of fuel melting can occur), there is still time to stop this loss of coolent accident (LOCA).

[Jeffry2009]

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Jeffry2009

That's an oil refinery in Chiba near me. NOT the nuclear plant.

I heard that explosion.

The explosion at Fukushima took place during the day and didn't involved any fire.

[MeoTwister5]

From what I can tell the nuclear plant explosion was more like an implosion, a collapse, and at most smoke and high temp steam. If it were an explosion in the commonly literal sense of the word, it would have been nuclear fire.

And nuclear fire... well I don't even want to think what kind of hell would break lose if it were. So no, no Michael Bay-esque hellfire and brimstone splosions.

[RRW]

.a volcano erupted around Kagoshima now...warning of ash and falling pumice...

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/2011...646651000.html

[haegar]

Speaking of fact, experience teaches that with almost all nuclear incidents over the past decades, be they small level 1 or serious level 7 shitloads like Chernobyl, the offical policy of both companies and governments has been to release as little information as possible, and generally downplay things as much as possible - if anyone can show me one instance where the danger-rating, radiation levels, threat-assesments and so on of day 2 after catastrophe turned out to be true two weeks after I would be genuinly surprised.

I am appaled, not by fear-mongering, but by the sheer audacity and EXTREME naivity with which you folks keep on saying FACTS FACTS FACTS the world is alright.

I am not a nuclear expert. I have no clue of how reactors work in detail. Even the simple outlines posted in this thread I do not claim to all understand completely. I am pretty sure neither have most of you. I do however have a clue about one thing - and that is the way politicians and corporate officials act in front of the press when a real shitstorm is about to come down on them. It doesn't take much to see that this is at the very least partially the case here:

The official TEPCO statements STILL read "explosive sound" "white smoke" but does not mention EXPLOSION - has anybody watched TV? why do they think do they NOT call THAT an explosion?! the first official press conference of the prime minister - WHY do you think it is he DID NOT EVEN MENTION the world meltdown? If there is no such thing taking place, WHY did he not say "THERE IS AND WS NOOO MELTDOWN!"

*shakeshead*


As for lighwater posing no danger. Yeah true there is no graphite that will blow this allover. What about the seawater used for cooling that gets contaminated and then enters the foodchain? What about the hydrogen explosion blowing so much particles into the air that they measured 400x norm at Onagawa which is several dozens of miles away? You gonna tell me these particles are all short decay rate? Well maybe more so than in Cheronbyl, that doean't make them completely harmless. What about the melting cake going down into the ground and contaminating the drinking water? There is no assurances whatever that the seawater boric acid mix will actually stop the chain reaction - this has never been tried before - normally, as I understand the mix is used to prevent meltdown from beginning in the first place - using it to slow it down or reduce heat of a chain reaction already under way is unprecedented and might or might not work.

Besides, all your statements on "this kind of reactor does not spread that kind of hard harmfull radiation" Reality check. If lightwater reactors do not explode, and do not meltdown, and do pose no danger at all -WHY AGAIN is it they are evacuating 200.000+ people?

Those guys in suits say all will be well. God now I am relieved if they say it's harmless, it has to be ...it is FACT.

*sarcasm off*

[RRW]

^ that make whole thing more confuse

Before/After pic (most of them are stunning)


http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/ja...eforeafter.htm

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by rrw

...
The Fukushima Daiichi power plant is a Boiling Water Reactor. It is both moderated (what causes fission) and cooled (what stops the nuclear fuel/waste from getting so hot it melts) by water.

The plant was scrammed (immediately stopped) after the earthquake by inserting control rods (boron-infused 'rods' that prevent further fissions from taking place (by eating up all the neutrons necessary to initiate fission). This happened successfully. The plant is "shut down."

But not safe at this point.

Originally Posted by rrw

However, after the plant is shut down, there are still certain elements called "delayed neutron precursors" that will STILL released neutrons for some time period after the plant is shut down. These are what cause heat to accrue in a reactor that should theoretically be "shut down". This is why cooling needs to be provided in a typical 2nd generation light-water reactor (what most reactors in the world are) for a good while after shutdown.

Without cooling water, the likely "worst case" will be the reactor pressure vessel (RPV) building up heat, which builds up pressure, which could cause a rupture of the vessel. The fuel rods will spill out radioactive contents, fires might break out, and the reactor is basically a lost cause.

And if the cooling water reaches very high temperatures (because the cooling cylce malfunctions), it can generate H2 in a reaction of water (inner, possible contaminated) coolant with the fuel/moderator rod material. At this temperatures the structural integrity of the fuel rods cannot be guaranteed and a partial melt down can happen. This however exposes the inner coolant to the radioactively long living fuel (some reports state that Caesium-137 a fission byproduct was detected outside the power plant).
When the H2 was vented off, in the outer containment it was possibly (most likely) mixed with O2, which caused the explosion (high temperatures) and the release of the further release of the possibly contaminated inner coolant to the outside (because the outer containment meant to keep it inside was blown away by the oxyhydrogen which is composed of the inner coolant that was possible contaminated with the fuel of the rods which have long half life.

Originally Posted by rrw

And how does that affect the general populace in terms of radioactive dose?
-Not at all.

You said, the fuel rods will spill out radioactive contents, and claim at the same time that it does not affect the general populace if it comes into contact with it. Can you explain this a little bit more detailed maybe?

Originally Posted by rrw

The RPV is surrounded by a containment facility designed from the ground up to withstand everything short of hydrogen bombs. Given the semi-spherical distance from the RPV an explosion would have to travel to break through the containment vessel, it is fundamentally impossible (given the energy density the RPV is capable of containing) for there to be straight up "radioactive smoke" or such getting outside of containment. The containment building is constructed to prevent EXACTLY this emergency.

But it is also constructed to release (vent off) contaminated coolant if the inner pressure is too high. Thats basically where it reaches a limit, where something like a trade off is enacted: In order to contain at least most of the inner coolant (which is propably contaminated at this point) part of it has to be vented outside, which is basically breaking the definition of its supposed function... to conceal the inner coolant from the outside. Its a matter of debate if a system that is malfunctioning according to specifications can be considered intact, when it clearly fails to do what it is supposed to do in the first place.

In any case, the outer containment is supposed to catch the released inner coolant in such an incident. But the outer containment was blown away. The stuff that was meant to remain inside came outside. Therefore, it is good to know, that the remaing stuff inside the reactor can be prevented from further leaking, but for the already released coolant it is too late. And now all the containments are contaminated.

Originally Posted by rrw

So while this is a worrying emergency, and could represent billions of lost dollars a mess to clean up should the WORST come about, it will still not be another Chernobyl. And given the efforts underway to provide cooling and the fact that the fuel rods are still not exposed to air (When the real danger of fuel melting can occur), there is still time to stop this loss of coolent accident (LOCA).

Of course it is no Chernobyl. But it doesn't have to, to be a health risk. If A is considered unhealthy, you cannot simply say B isn't, just because A != B. Thats a logical fallacy.

[RRW]

can you just read the post wholly instead breaking it down

by the way what is your point to make in here

25% of country energy is lost