(L) BLACK ROCK SHOOTER TV series

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by felix

Personally I hate shows that try too hard to not have a plot. I don't want Tom & Jerry style of action, where it's there with very little premise. That said I do not put weight on the premise; I just expect sufficient quantity to make some sense, not quality.

The fact I stated "more action based" doesn't mean it would turn into a T&J style. Also, what I was criticizing was how they couldn't maintain the script without the issues mentioned above, I never stated the "high school part" is impossible to work with, although the way they did here was awkward. Don't put words in my mouth.

I liked it. Therefore your generalization is false

You got it backward: you declared that without the melodrama, there wouldn't be any tension. The fact you liked it doesn't mean it isn't doable to make a conflict without the melodrama. You made the assumption here, not me.

I don't believe you; what's your basis for saying that?
[...]
If you want me to believe in your argument, make up some plot points they could have gone though with if they followed out of the OVA, and prove to me how that is more coherent or achieves the goal of selling the theme of BRS (among the other obvious requirements).

As already stated: the game and the manga greatly diverged from the OVA, and could deliver a much more action based plot. Liking it or not would depends of the individual, but my point stands as that you really don't need the OVA premise to start a plot with BRS lore.
Also, by no means I'm under the burden of proof here: working on something non melodrama action centred story isn't a first in general, and I -really- doubt anyone expected the high school setting when the OVA trailer was aired. In fact, a good deal of people never saw it coming, for obvious reasons.

No. It's a perspective on the problem, therefore it's relevant.

Absolutely not. You are calling out people, declaring they "should stop bitching and learn to (properly) enjoy" it. That's actually implying you get it and we don't. As far as it goes, I only mentioned my take of the series so far. I never implied "that those who appreciated the series ignored/didn't notice the flaws", but for some reason, you certainly force people to reconsider things.
Putting it bluntly: There is no "method" to enjoy a show, since it depends of people taste and how they perceive a given quality/default as minor or more than that. So declaring people should learn how to enjoy a show is a very displaced remark.

Personally I watched the show several episodes at a time and didn't go to discuss it anywhere (no interest given the pre-show trolling). And you know what, I enjoyed it just fine!

Good for you, and you aren't the only one. So what?
It isn't like I criticized the show to ruin people enjoyment or "convince them" that they should not like it. I didn't like the show in its every tidbits, you did. Also, there wasn't any remote implied "how people can enjoy this show" comment whatsoever: people expressed how they enjoyed the show, others did the opposite. That's far as it goes.

Coming here and hearing the arguments, I'm not really seeing the connections. Whatever issues you have, are either artificially created from the fact your little journey though the show was: talk > episode > talk > talk > episode > talk, meaning they are problems only people who sat down and analyzed every minute of the episode for a week would have

You are making even more assumption: it isn't like I spent minutes or even hours to think about what I've watched. You did like the show without discussing it? Well I didn't like flaws I spotted on the fly, and that's without turning my brainpower to the max. No really, you are the one making a gross assumpion here: I didn't expect any sophisticated story at all, and I still got disturbed by the storytelling -at the very same time I was watching each episode-. The fact I posted few posts about it or not doesn't matter, since I would have had the very same impressions regardless if I did the former or not.

And instead of stating the issues of the argument presented by those who found the story flawed, you keep repeating "artificial" "shallow" and so forth. You can disagree however you want, but brushing the arguments this way is not only disrespectul in term of discussion, it doesn't really help your stance one bit.
I don't need debate or every points countered to see that some people just disagree and can fully enjoy their show. Likewise, I really don't need myself to argue all day long to prove I couldn't swallow some points of this series.

as evident from the fact most of the arguments can be attributed to a "how would a debate on the show go" subject matter. Or, it's something deeper then that such as you've watched too much stuff with the same hooks, that like little kids you've grown bored of them and want new ones; obviously "breaking" them old toys is the way to go

Another assumption and generalization. Most people who complained about the show hardly made any comparison or "what they should have done instead". Most points were points that don't exactly make sense in the series own standards and setting.

Yes it can be important, but the show isn't obligated to do it (and you are not entitled to get it). The journey is NOT the destination. The experience is not the ending; that's just the cherry on the cake. So going in with make or break expectations of the destination is fine, but the show's not to blame if you get disappointed.You can't say "the show is bad" because of it, because that implies nobody else likes it, but it's "nobody else that only cares for the last 2 minutes of the entire 160 minute thing and expects X won't like it", which is just extreeeemely narrow thinking; not much of an accurate assessment you want it to be.

This is where I think your point of view will just be incompatible: the ending is important imo, as it is a part and ultimately the end of the journey.
And you made a mistake here: the destination wasn't the only problem I had with the show, so no, the ending wasn't the only thing that made say that the script of BRS TV was awkward.

People keep bringing that up for some reason. I dropped it at around episode 7 or 8 as I recall.

And the reason is quite self evident: it isn't the first time you call out people regarding their complaint about a show, saying they put shallow arguments and whatnot, while you weren't exactly any different with that particular series.

[xizro345]

Originally Posted by felix

Can you go into more detail? The general problem with the "but there's a game and it's better" argument is that, game =/= story (and yes I do mean "story").

I mean, it has a setting which is completely different (BRS is voiced by Maya Sakamoto, as another example), and the story, while leaving some stuff up to interpretation and/or background material, remains decently consistent throughout the game. Sometimes the drama is a little too much, especially with the character of Nana Gray, who can be considered the Yomi-counterpart of the game (she's voiced by Miyuki Sawashiro as well). But overall it works, perhaps because it's less ambitious than the TV series. The story is pretty much prominent in the game, despite not being at Xenosaga-like levels.
I say it's better because it has a direction, sticks with it, and doesn't throw random plot points around then forgetting about them 5 s later (the whole "BRS will destroy that world" argument in episode 7).

[felix]

Spoiler for more on 'how it should have been' discussion + typical meta nonsense:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The fact I stated "more action based" doesn't mean it would turn into a T&J style.

Never said you did. Merely the concept behind your argument that action is that important and self sufficient for a great plot.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Also, what I was criticizing was how they couldn't maintain the script without the issues mentioned above, I never stated the "high school part" is impossible to work with, although the way they did here was awkward. Don't put words in my mouth.

When did we even talk about this high school part? You seem to be narrowing down "premise" to "highschool part". That's not what I meant... and frankly the "highschool part" as you call it has very little to do with it; other then being a convenient excuse for meetups.

Also, you said very clearly: 'drop the pretense of having a "plot" and just pull more action'. If that's not what you meant then rephrase, correct, or retract it.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You got it backward: you declared that without the melodrama, there wouldn't be any tension. The fact you liked it doesn't mean it isn't doable to make a conflict without the melodrama. You made the assumption here, not me.

My original reply was itself a reply to all the general "drama ruined it" arguments; but regardless this chicken and egg argument doesn't matter. I explained the purpose of the drama not declare it un-replaceable (obviously something else that fulfills that function can replace it; the question is if there actually is something better). Feel free to suggest such a thing. So far you haven't in any of your previous posts explained what you would replace it with, or how not having it fulfills any function. I can very easily say your assessment is merely based on per-conceived conclusions you've had before the show even aired and you have nothing to prove me wrong with, because you haven't given any argument that isn't just tacking stabs at the show as a means of raising your per-ordained assessment of it.

You are free to not like it. But these drama arguments along with the animation arguments don't hold water because there is literally no comparison to be made (none that anyone has given anyway). You can't be "the worst" yet at the same time there's nothing better out there to give as example of "how it should be done".

Originally Posted by Klashikari

As already stated: the game and the manga greatly diverged from the OVA, and could deliver a much more action based plot.

Read some of the manga. It diverges greatly from BRS style (BRS is not even in her outfit, she has a snake sword, DM is a lesbian, etc), the OVA is much more in tune with the artwork. As for the game, don't see why coping a story is beneficial. By having an original story there's incentive to buy both; it's also safer for the franchise to diverge like this. Also, is there even proof the game was a success? as in a huge enough success that catering to the game fans would be a wise decision. Please go into detail of why exactly the game plot is so great. And also there's the issue of game to anime transition, and how that works.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Also, by no means I'm under the burden of proof here:

I never forced anyone to give proof. I just made the obvious implication that all these critics are worthless because nobody has given any proof; and I mean logical conclusions not things you "want to find wrong in it".

Again by all means, don't provide proof for your arguments and just go with (what I believe to be) per-defined viral conclusions. If I don't understand it, it's not exactly the end of the world.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

working on something non melodrama action centred story isn't a first in general, and I -really- doubt anyone expected the high school setting when the OVA trailer was aired. In fact, a good deal of people never saw it coming, for obvious reasons.

If I understand correctly, you're saying: "people got surprised". That's a bad thing? Personally I like surprises.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Absolutely not. You are calling out people, declaring they "should stop bitching and learn to (properly) enjoy" it.

The only thing I'm calling out people on is to get their arguments in check and phrase it in a way that makes logical sense. I don't care if it's hate, love or something else.

Currently the only people that seem to get these arguments are people that share the exact same opinion. I'm not forcing anyone to learn anything (as I keep pointing out), I'm telling you all, as someone that doesn't hate it, all your so called "arguments" have no connections to the show itself--whatever implied connections I'm suppose to make aren't there for me. Why is the CG bad? What am I suppose to think it's bad just because it's not hand drawn?

Whatever choir you're all preaching to, I'm obviously not in it.

ps. don't see anything wrong with pointing out arguments are incomprehensible; your not forced to respond/comply

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That's actually implying you get it and we don't. As far as it goes, I only mentioned my take of the series so far. I never implied "that those who appreciated the series ignored/didn't notice the flaws", but for some reason, you certainly force people to reconsider things.

Maybe you get it and I don't. I don't care really.

And how exactly am I forcing people. For example, I can choose not to reply to your posts; I'm not forced to reply to them... or am I? /joke

Not sure I see your point. So you're saying I'm not allowed to tell others "I don't understand their arguments, because of X, Y, Z"? If you have an argument then I think you should be able to shape it in any which form... don't see what's such a big fuss about it. The basic flaw I pointed out was that based on most arguments, you're suppose to hate the drama, animation, etc because of another hate (hate for CG, hate for melodrama, hate for school moments, hate person Z) but nobody bothers to explain why you're suppose to have those "hates" to begin with. I don't see it as a big deal to carry the explanation forward; or do you not have an explanation?

Considering an argument is meant to convince people that do not have the belief then what purpose does your argument have if it's not worded in way that I can understand, when I'm (apparently) of the few that doesn't share the same opinion as you do. Is your argument meant to convince people that are already convinced they hate it?

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Putting it bluntly: There is no "method" to enjoy a show, since it depends of people taste and how they perceive a given quality/default as minor or more than that. So declaring people should learn how to enjoy a show is a very displaced remark.

Again, I don't care if you enjoy it or not, or if you come to enjoy it or not. I don't believe this "you have to be of the opinion to share the perspective" meta nonsense. If it was like that then nobody would understand anybody else. Going back to the color analogy, say green is your favorite color, you could say: "green is my favorite, green is awesome" and only other people who like green (the same way you do) would get it, or you could say "green is my favorite, because I associate it with nature, peace and relaxation" and even people who like blue or red would get it, and people that like green a different way, get it too. It's a discussion after all, not a collective diary, the point is to share perspectives others wouldn't necessarily have considered. Which brings on the next point...

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It isn't like I criticized the show to ruin people enjoyment or "convince them" that they should not like it. I didn't like the show in its every tidbits, you did.

Why is it so unreasonable to say: you should have stated it in a way people would understand.

This is a forum, you're not exactly addressing yourself in every post.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Also, there wasn't any remote implied "how people can enjoy this show" comment whatsoever: people expressed how they enjoyed the show, others did the opposite. That's far as it goes.

For the record I haven't seen a proper write up on why you should enjoy the show either. The one or two posts that seem to attempt it fall in the same traps; and if I barely get them (and I liked the show), I can only guess how much you all get out of them.

Also, you're implying some black and white relationship here. Are you saying if I liked it I'm not allowed to not like anything about it? and vice versa. I find it hard to believe a proper argument would work like that; even if you truly liked everything there are things you liked least and things you liked more, same for hating everything.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You are making even more assumption: it isn't like I spent minutes or even hours to think about what I've watched. You did like the show without discussing it? Well I didn't like flaws I spotted on the fly, and that's without turning my brainpower to the max. No really, you are the one making a gross assumpion here: I didn't expect any sophisticated story at all, and I still got disturbed by the storytelling -at the very same time I was watching each episode-. The fact I posted few posts about it or not doesn't matter, since I would have had the very same impressions regardless if I did the former or not.

Then why does that impression not have alternative explanations? If you truly understood why you hate it, then you should be able to explain it any which way. Understanding goes beyond a lousy sentence or paragraph after all. You insist heavily on defending your words, over your reasons. Why? It should be a lot easier the other way round. Just give a counter argument or add on your previous argument to clarify, instead of raising the great wall of meta.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And instead of stating the issues of the argument presented by those who found the story flawed, you keep repeating "artificial" "shallow" and so forth. You can disagree however you want, but brushing the arguments this way is not only disrespectul in term of discussion, it doesn't really help your stance one bit.

I've already detailed why, but just to put it in a nice list:

• why is CG bad?
• why is drama a bad thing?
• why is school life a bad thing?
• why is the picture book plot bad?

There are others, but those are the main points I don't get and seem to be treated as axioms in your arguments.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I don't need debate or every points countered to see that some people just disagree and can fully enjoy their show. Likewise, I really don't need myself to argue all day long to prove I couldn't swallow some points of this series.

Don't care for the debate; I merely pointed out you've stated your perspective in a way I can't understand. This doesn't imply anything from you. You can keep presenting your opinion in this ambiguous way--don't really see the point, but whatever.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Most people who complained about the show hardly made any comparison or "what they should have done instead".

So then... we see the same thing, but disagree this is actually a problem? If you do not express an alternative then how can you argue removal of the current status quo is beneficial?

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Most points were points that don't exactly make sense in the series own standards and setting.

(Not sure what you mean here.)

Originally Posted by Klashikari

This is where I think your point of view will just be incompatible: the ending is important imo, as it is a part and ultimately the end of the journey.

If you go on a journey and then just take a shortcut to the ending then the journey doesn't exist, the experience isn't there. Isn't that why people don't like spoilers? because it cheapens the journey, not that the actual event itself is of that much significance.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And you made a mistake here: the destination wasn't the only problem I had with the show, so no, the ending wasn't the only thing that made say that the script of BRS TV was awkward.

Wasn't referring to your argument there. You'll have to go into detail of what you actually mean, as I'm not someone who can make the connections your implicitly making. How should I explain... try inverting your statement, so it's: "the ending was the only thing that made the script great" See you can't understand a thing from it (there's no why, how, etc).

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And the reason is quite self evident: it isn't the first time you call out people regarding their complaint about a show, saying they put shallow arguments and whatnot, while you weren't exactly any different with that particular series.

Which arguments? I'm more then happy to rephrase things until my perspective on them is not shallow anymore. Just point me to them.

Originally Posted by xizro345

I mean, it has a setting which is completely different (BRS is voiced by Maya Sakamoto, as another example), and the story, while leaving some stuff up to interpretation and/or background material, remains decently consistent throughout the game. Sometimes the drama is a little too much, especially with the character of Nana Gray, who can be considered the Yomi-counterpart of the game (she's voiced by Miyuki Sawashiro as well). But overall it works, perhaps because it's less ambitious than the TV series. The story is pretty much prominent in the game, despite not being at Xenosaga-like levels.
I say it's better because it has a direction, sticks with it, and doesn't throw random plot points around then forgetting about them 5 s later (the whole "BRS will destroy that world" argument in episode 7).

You'll have to understand I never played it. So everything you just said translated to:

"it has <insert generic good attribute>. X and Y voice actor are in it".

I'm not exactly convinced, sorry.

[Klashikari]

TL;DR…

 

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

There is nothing else I want to add except that: read posts for what they are. It is tiring to see how many times you warped people points and arguments, without even bothering taking notes of the points given and instead indulged yourself in full assumptions. Done with this anyway.

[xizro345]

Originally Posted by felix

You'll have to understand I never played it. So everything you just said translated to:

"it has <insert generic good attribute>. X and Y voice actor are in it".

I'm not exactly convinced, sorry.

And you have to understand there's a specific thread in the game section related to the game. I'm not going to break the rules by going into details here. Besides, the game is still supposedly scheduled for the NA market.

[Marcus H.]

Okay guys, stop the hating. We already know that the series had a lackluster production team (except for Sanzigen's marvelous mix of 3D CGI and 2D animation), but you don't need to put more salt into the wounds by justifying your claim OVER and OVER again. Not to mention that telling us that we somehow made a mistake of enjoying the series is a big insult.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Not to mention that telling us that we somehow made a mistake of enjoying the series is a big insult.

Since when such comment was ever done?

[Marcus H.]

One doesn't need to talk directly about it. It can be easily implied by repetitive analyses that tends to point out the flaws of the series.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

One doesn't need to talk directly about it. It can be easily implied by repetitive analyses that tends to point out the flaws of the series.

Pointing flaws of an aired episode/finished series is the very same as pointing the qualities of the episode/series, just on the opposite side of the spectrum. It has nothing to do with attacking/questioning the reason why people like the show and whatnot.

To make such assumption is no less insulting than claiming people shouldn't like the show. By the same logic, I should suddenly think that all of the people liking a show de facto think that those who dislike it are dumb by repeating "the action / drama / etc was cool!". Both are unreasonable at best.

[justsomeguy]

I'm surprised at the all-out warfare in this thread, of all places. I'm also surprised that I actually like this show despite many elements that found to be cheesy or unnecessary (specifically, the picture book).
Normally I would absolutely hate emoness and drama (especially since most of the girls are making mountains out of molehills), but for some reason I didn't mind it in a show that literally revolves around that.
I really wished that they could have given a bit more time to Strength/Yu, because the whole abuse/body switching/"alien"-in-human-world thing because there was basically no foreshadowing at all when it took center stage in the plot. The story behind Saya/BGS also got dropped, despite her being played up as a villain. Switching from trying to kill Mato to suddenly not is , despite all the theories other people have proposed.

Meh, 8/10, good but somewhat flawed.

[felix]

Spoiler for more on 'proper plot' discussion:

Cutting all the meta talk. You seem to be turning it into the core of your arguments, using it as a means to take jabs at me or embellishing your arguments.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

What I mentioned here is that the plot they have presented to us is not self sufficient the way they wrote it [...], and if they can't portray a proper storytelling, then they might just polish the action part more, or even put more focus on it.

The story/plot is in broad terms as follows:

• Mato is semi-average energetic girl
• She likes the story of magical bird-thing
• She meets with Yomi and wants to become her friend
• This causes a lot of internal conflict and issues.
• These issues manifest (and they have for a while) as battles in the Other World
• Mato trying to solve her issues with Yomi, and others, leads to complications.
• Because of all the complications Mato ends up alone (just like the bird in the story).
• Her friend Yuu then leads her to believe she can solve her issues by going to the Other World
• But things don't go as planned and she loses it and essentially almost dies by being sucked into her other self.
• This leads up to IBRS and some backstory on some of the other characters.
• Mato eventually comes to terms to herself and continues the little bird's story after it's death.
• And by bringing everyone together she and her friends achieve peace.

The End

So let's see, is the plot not self sufficient? Well it has a beginning, an end, it covers a single main protagonist (Mato) and goes though a few antagonists (Kagari, Saya, IBRS, Yuu). It might have some twists here and there but it's pretty coherent. Most importantly it's not forced, since it follows the simple progression of Mato's attempt to befriend Yomi. It has a pretty obvious template for the viewer: the picture book, and all of it's development either reflects back to the picture book, or relates to it. The beginning is connected to the end, and the end is connected to the beginning.

I could go on further but I think that proves enough the story is pretty self sufficient, and the storytelling is definitely proper by any realistic standards.

You connect the action sequences to the storytelling in your argument; I find that odd. Even if you describe an action sequence unless there's deep meaning behind it or some dialog, there's little point to it; from a story perspective. Action sequences are basically just another form of fanservice--of course I don't mean that in a bad sense. The might keep the viewer glued to the screen but they're not central to the story itself; at least their quantity isn't. Let's say a 5 minute sequence becomes a 10 minute sequence, the story wise value is still "and then they fauth".

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I don't even need to rephrase it since it is self explanatory:

To whom is it self explanatory exactly? Because it's not to me.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I did say that if they just can't pull a proper plot, as in term of execution and presentation, they -could- always make up for it with the action [...]

Execution and presentation have nothing to do with story and plot, they are part of the show aesthetics. And, as I explained, you can't insert action as plot. Your "proper plot" seems to be actually some kind of problems you have with the aesthetics.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You don't need any comparison whatsoever to consider something faulty or not.

If you're going to make a declaration then you do. Not doing so is basically a subjective opinion; you can not present arguments based on subjective opinion. At most your views should be subjective, not your actual "facts" you're basing arguments on.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Otherwise, any "original" series would be exempt of praise/criticism which is really unfathomable.

If the series creates it's own niche, I would think it's only natural for it to be immune to at least some angles of criticism, at least until other candidates join that niche.

If it's just an original story, then I don't really see the issue; it's not like I'm saying an argument needs to do a full parallel to another show to count. For example, the crazy job with Kagari is similar to Madoka's mahou shoujo antics, and the way the story keeps to the same one-idea (picture book) is also similar; on the other hand the crazy weapon of doom gimmicks and crazy fighting is like the CG version of TTGL's over the top antics.

Also, in a sense I'm not asking you to make a comparison, since you already are. By saying story is bad you are essentially making a generic parallel between it and all series. So, I'm just saying make a more precise comparison, because the general one is too vague and broad, and obviously only you get the details when you make it.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The OVA/TV series literally brought things that never were addressed either by the artwork you know: human counterpart and so forth.

I know, but the point is the OVA/TV series match the artwork when it comes to BRS and other elements. You could believe the artwork actually belonged to said series; and some scenes reflect the artwork. The Manga/Game art on the other hand is very distinct; it's more "inspired" then anything. So in that sense the OVA/TV has an edge; it having extra things, well that's a given.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

[...] you seem to think I stated the "game plot is great" despite I did not: I did use the game plot as a perfect example that you can diverge from the OVA setting

So basically what you mean to say is: they demonstrate that other possibilities exist. Well, yes I agree. But that doesn't mean the OVA/TV is bad because other possibilities exist. Other possibilities, doesn't mean better possibilities. It doesn't invalidate the Tv in any way.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And if they can make a series based on few artworks, it isn't like they can't do that from a game, especially the game is quite straighforward.

You can't just say that just because the game has X popularity suddenly anything made that's not the game in animated form is bad. That's ignoring all the aspects of the anime. The anime could be adapted from the manga or a completely different story and you could say the same thing.

I'm still not convinced the story is great just from some numbers, because it's a game so people don't care for the story (and this is not story based franchise). But regardless it's all irrelevant either.

If the manga and game didn't exist are you saying you would adore it?

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I can't give proof of things that I -personally- can't appreciate unless few things that goes against common sense (Saya's issue being the glaring issue)

Just explain why you don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

but can you give me -proof- that the series is good?

If and when I make a judgment post on it. Though I've gone over some points already in the course of this debate.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And so far, you never stated why the arguments "don't make sense".

Argument: "<series>'s <story/animation/character(s)> is <bad/awful/unwatchable>."

These are not arguments, they are merely emotion you flail around. An actual argument goes like this: "Saya's character had very unrealistic psychological problems and backstory doesn't add up to her age and the age of Yuu, which detracts from the climax at the end when the series expects the viewer to pass over it."

To declare a series good or bad you have to use actual arguments not those "filler" arguments.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Not only you ask "logical statements" for few things that are up to one's tastes

If it's one taste you're suppose to write it as such, "I found the series to be disappointing. [insert above Saya argument]. This lead me to great disappointment and ruined what was my favorite plot line, and hence my entire enjoyment of the series." Instead of: "The series really suffered of way too many issues to be really considered remotely good in my books. [insert the-arguments]" which implies a general analysis for everyone (ie. not just people that share your "tastes", but me and others that liked it as well).

Originally Posted by Klashikari

but you keep being a broken record in saying people should be logical while you don't even supplement this point at all.

I didn't know having logical arguments was such a big deal.

I try to make logical arguments. If you do not find parts of my arguments logical, as I said in the other post feel free to point them out. I do not write in stone.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Conversively, you have branded the series in a truely positive light, stating "I liked it!" without proof

That was only a part of a logical argument against your "Everyone hates it" argument. It serves no other purpose, and isn't required to be any more complex; the very fact I can say that counters the argument you made where I said it.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

but I don't even question the fact you appreciate it.

I never said you should question your beliefs. I merely ask you express your beliefs in an understandable way.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It is a circular displaced remark, when you use your stance as the logic and correct way and force the opposite side to "prove their points" while you don't do any of this.

As I keep telling you: if you don't get some part of my arguments, just ask and I'll expand on it. I DO NOT write in stone tablets!

Originally Posted by Klashikari

So instead of belittling people and asking things that is hardly relevant here, you should simply agree to disagree.

Refused. The so called "belittled" people can stop being lazy and write properly. I don't believe I'm asking anything unreasonable so if people are getting offended, then it's their problem not mine. This is not something one should get offended from.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I never stated it was a bad thing. You asked me to provide points that would make the show work without following the OVA premise, while it is highly up to one's interpretation and tastes, and that without any canon material aside of design. And I brought this point for a big reason: numerous people had already an idea how BRS would go prior the OVA release. With this observation, it is easy to assume the vast majority could see BRS working without the OVA setting. It isn't about if the OVA setting is bad or whatnot: that point made clear that the OVA setting isn't the only possible storytelling available, and you know that. And as stated, game and manga have shown they could work without the OVA setting.

[answered previously]

Just because the could work (assuming they do), doesn't mean the Tv is bad, or the Tv is worse then their story.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Explanations were given regarding why some points of the series don't make sense or are bad.

The explanations just redirect the criticsim from one generic category to another. At most I've read very rudimentary summaries that somehow I guess are suppose to prove things. If there is a point in there, then I guess everyone is failing to just say it at the end. And then you have the very selective thinking, which doesn't even make sense from a common sense perspective.

eg.

they used too many tricks with the CGI animation that it outright looked sloppy to me (many "quick movements" were facilitated with acceleration lines instead of real movements, "particles" were subpar, objects such like bullets and cartridges were used just for "awesome" quantity but the animation regarding these was crude

So let's see:

• why is accelerated lines bad? what exactly do you even mean by real movement? ... do you want bullet time for everything? (personally I find it hard to even think of an example of accelerated lines being used)
• particles were sub par? where exactly?
• how was the cartridge animation crude? they seem pretty accurate, and this is a fantasy world so who cares.
• why is cartridge, accelerated-whatnot and particles such titanic issues? (personally I cared for backgrounds, models and animation)

I'm sorry but I don't accept things at face value. If it doesn't reduce itself to "understanding" then my reaction is it's bad because it's unexplained, no matter how appealing you may write it as. The only basis to your argument there seems to be your own negativity.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Also, you keep polarizing opinions around: people dislike points of the shows, they did not claim "you should hate the series for that!" or "you should hate that part!".

Yes they are. If they aren't then tell me how exactly it would sound for them to do so. If you're doing it intentionally or not is irrelevant to me as a reader.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Arguments are given to explain why they like/dislike it.

Those are "opinions". Arguments are made to prove your perspective is accurate.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

1) -I- didn't fully appreciated the CGI -animation-. The CG itself aren't too distracting, but the animation itself isn't fully smooth.

[Addressed this earlier]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

2) "drama" in general depends how it is used. The way it is used in BRS however isn't convincing: yomi and Kagari parents participating into the "let's pity Kagari together" is hardly something believable, especially when Yomi was not at fault, not matter how you look at it.

We don't know too much about Kagari's actual family ties to Yomi. Personally I assumed that because they live so close together they are somehow related. The fact we saw child Yomi and child Kagari at such a young age, and the hints to their relationship back then, seems to suggest some blood ties. If not, then the circumstances for Kagari to know Yomi was going away becomes very complicated; especially with Yomi's personality.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Saya's predicament was hardly convincing when she state Mato is innocent, yet she enjoyed toying with the girls, scared Mato and even mention "I don't need to you kill yet" in a satisfying fashion.

Saya's attitude was intentional, not her thinking out loud. You are misinterpreting the dialog she used to mess with BRS with her own personality. She's also deeply tied to GS so it's not really Saya if we're talking about the character, it's Saya/GS and Saya-Saya sometimes.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

3-4) Never stated it was bad. The way they used the drama however was questionable.

How would it have been unquestionable.

Originally Posted by xizro345

And you have to understand there's a specific thread in the game section related to the game. I'm not going to break the rules by going into details here. Besides, the game is still supposedly scheduled for the NA market.

I see.

Subscribed to the thread. Just post it there, I'll be watching out for it.

[Guido]

I'm already done with half of the shows that I picked-up for this season, which is about to end. Black * Rock Shooter turning 3rd place of the anime that I have finished for this season.

On-Topic
It was about July 31st last year when I came to watch the OVA.

Back then, I realized that the symbolism and metaphors referenced the inner conflicts of the main characters coming true as battles in the other world.

I am thankful for enjoying this series without venturing deep into the realm of the meanings that were frequently explored in the story, however, I do get that to understand the relationship on what's happening with the girls in the real world to what's going on with BRS and the other characters in the other world, hence, the symbolism must be grasped by the viewer to some extent.

Spoiler:

The tale of the little bird that flies everywhere around the world meeting all different kinds of pure and dirty colors, until its last breath to death to me have some interpretations:

- Mato being the bird once she realizes she wants to bond with everyone understanding that pain would be the price that she must pay to make those friendships to grow plentiful, she rises as if were a phoenix.
The little bird raising as a Phoenix from its own death to go on and continue its flight to set for new colors to witness.
An allusion for Mato get to know more about Yomi and Yuu and the others, to see other different shades of their personas, for her to let known to her friends her own colors.

- The theme I get is about being selfish and not being selfish when one must be. It was ok for Yuu wanting to remain in the other world so as not to get hurt, however, she took for granted that the real world was always full of pain, therefore, pointless for her to return back.
Nonetheless, Strength's interference and farewell to Yuu taught her that Mato taught her (Strength) about simple things in the real world that became wonderful experiences, and, hence, the world is not absolutely full of pain as Yuu always insisted due to her previous experiences.
It's okay to be selfish and is okay not to be selfish just as long as one doesn't make a habit out of it like being afraid all the time about meeting new people foreign to that person, feeling afraid that all the people are out there exist just to hurt that person, etc.
Because not keeping in check selfishness and selflessness at the end engenders a vicious cycle where one gets trapped with no seeming way out of one's own obsessions and destructive tendencies.

- There's no escaping pain and fear, and we're surrounded by it all the time. Sure, we can run away from them, but it won't fix the problem. They'll just accumulate and build-up with time, until the moment comes when they'll explode right within ourselves leading to disastrous consequences for us.
Mato's fear and pain about not wanting to hurt others and just getting herself hurt is but one of many examples this show portrayed.

Black * Rock Shooter may have its faults, and many of you found the plot senseless, but to me it's whole message became clear.
- It's about a girl wanting to make friends, and all of those girls are interconnected due to having faced burdens and fears that bore a weight on them. Their other selves took upon those burdens, which it was Ok.
- But for some those girls they just wanted to live in a sort of a status quo were nothing in their world had to change in order to avoid pain and not realizing, until it was too late, that found obsessions with their friendships to escape the problem rather than faced it.

Spoiler:

Kagari's psychotic and overly obsession with being Yomi's sole friend at the beginning of the show was one of those many examples.

Just like Yomi's feeling not fitting into Mato's circle of friends and turning back to Kagari to seek her friendship in order for her to escape from the pain, as another example, in the fourth and fifth episode.

- However, how badly treated, how abused she'll get, or how fearful she would get knowing she'll have no other choice but to hurt others, that girl still seeked to make friends with the other girls to make bonds with them in spite of pain.
- To be surrounded by friends to know them, to share their memories with them, and to share between themselves their pains and fears, as they continued to live and grow-up in the real world.

[GundamZZ]

I like the show's progress more than its outcome.

The plot twists is really a joyful ride.
Black Rock Saw began as a manipulating big boss. Then, she turns to a very caring big-sister role model.

Strength started out as a bystander and Black Rock Shooter's henchgirl. Then, the show tells us how she shoulders Yuu's sad life.

I can't feel for Chariot and Kagari's motivation, but battle scenes are so good.

The ending is quite good, because it doesn't turn out badly. Everyone's revival is as the symbol of the reconciliation among friends.

[Eater of All]

At the conclusion, I'm reminded heavily of Kurosu Taichi's "fundamentally, there are no means for people to touch people other than through attacks." Being the pessimist that he is, Taichi goes on to say that he thinks "of friendship as nothing more than the skill of holding back." Maybe this show is trying to convey the more optimistic message of friendship also being the skill of enduring.

In the end, I think BRS managed to convey itself decently, despite the batshit insane stuff that happened in the middle. But those were entertaining in their own way.

7.8/10 overall

[silvercover]

here, its like this:
director 1: "we will make BRS an action packed and thrilling series that will be talked for ages!"
director 2: "but how about their real life counterparts? as much as I love exhilarating, we need to make the 'real' characters important as they are in the OVA"
director 1: "oh fine. well, we just add lots of drama that will happen. then connect it to the otherworld characters and have them fight a no holds barred battle!"

when the fact is that those "RL" characters(mato, yomi) are not actually part of the BRS by huke. that's only for the OVA. see the manga for another example, they dont have any of those characters.
you can see the fact clearly that the "real" focus and reason for making the anime was for the CG fights. the drama was done because the directors were thinking that they had to stick to the original material, which they think is is the OVA, when the fact that it is not.
in the end, all they ended up doing was limiting themselves. for the epic fights, they had to give the girls problems as big as those.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by silvercover

here, its like this:
director 1: "we will make BRS an action packed and thrilling series that will be talked for ages!"
director 2: "but how about their real life counterparts? as much as I love exhilarating, we need to make the 'real' characters important as they are in the OVA"
director 1: "oh fine. well, we just add lots of drama that will happen. then connect it to the otherworld characters and have them fight a no holds barred battle!"

when the fact is that those "RL" characters(mato, yomi) are not actually part of the BRS by huke. that's only for the OVA. see the manga for another example, they dont have any of those characters.
you can see the fact clearly that the "real" focus and reason for making the anime was for the CG fights. the drama was done because the directors were thinking that they had to stick to the original material, which they think is is the OVA, when the fact that it is not.
in the end, all they ended up doing was limiting themselves. for the epic fights, they had to give the girls problems as big as those.

Actually, the OVA and anime are probably the most faithful adaptations of Huke's original concept so far, schoolgirls and all. That's cause the OVA and anime thus far have been the only adaptations to fully feature the "main cast" of the BRS universe, namely Black Rock Shooter, Dead Master, Black Gold Saw, and Strength, in total. The (main) manga adaptation thus far only features BRS and Dead Master (and as another poster noted is a bit of a reinterpretation in terms of character designs), while the BRS game universe only includes BRS alone. The anime and OVA thus constitute the most involved attempts so far to adapt the entire scope of Huke's BRS universe.

People should get over their hate for slice of life schoolgirls, lol. Mato, Yomi, etc. are pretty much as much part of the general BRS canon as the original character designs by now, I'd say. You can't seriously imagine that Huke himself was not at least consulted in their creation; the fact that they even exist at all is probably due to Huke's own requirement that BRS adaptations feature "yuri". It is actually the people asking for BRS adaptations to focus on all "action" themselves who don't understand the true character of this franchise.

Anyway, I started reading the manga a couple months ago, and it blatantly features lesbian themes, lol. It's also pretty different from the OVA/anime, although quite humorous/touching/cute regardless, so I would recommend it. As for the anime/OVA themselves, for the record, after this conclusion, I prefer the OVA version. Mari Okada skimped on the Yomi-focus/yuri-fanservice while she's not even a particularly good writer in the first place, so the conclusion here was underwhelming. I enjoyed the ending-credit highlight video of all the characters more than the finale itself. Still, this was a decent showing for the BRS franchise. At this point, what I'm hoping is that they'll get yet another chance to do an interpretation of Mato and Yomi in further anime projects once again.

[silvercover]

I dont really hate the girls, just how they are portrayed/done in the anime version. the OVA was done pretty well, unlike the anime one.

was referring more to the actual characters, as mato, yomi, and yuu were technically not part of the original. my point is, that if they were so concerned to stick with the franchise, they should know that those characters arent technically part of the BRS universe(the otherworld characters that is). as the examples shown, they didnt really have to follow the OVA's style and characters.

if they wanted something action-packed with it, they could have done something like post-apocalyptic world or something entirely different like fantasy/supernatural world.
or if the want to show the "lesson" of the story using the BRS franchise, they shouldnt have made the fights as violent and sadistic(hey, the fights were a lot more focused on hurting each other rather than a good fight), which in turn would translate to even more crazy/broken girls.

[klare]

"i am going to hurt you, over and over again!" haha my head does hurt a bit

an ok series, i like the fights, but the story is a bit confusing

the songs are nice tho, especially the ED

as for the character designs, still prefer the OVA ones

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Eater of All

At the conclusion, I'm reminded heavily of Kurosu Taichi's "fundamentally, there are no means for people to touch people other than through attacks." Being the pessimist that he is, Taichi goes on to say that he thinks "of friendship as nothing more than the skill of holding back." Maybe this show is trying to convey the more optimistic message of friendship also being the skill of enduring.

All relationships are tests of endurance, so I really like what you wrote here. It's rare to find any relationship work without effort, because fundamentally all of us are different enough that problems can and do arise, sometimes from the simplest and stupidest of things.

I saw two elements of the show in the "deep" sense that I really liked here:

1. The notion that the person on the surface isn't always a reflection of who they are on the inside. The reality is that a lot of us bury our negative feelings because it is painful to express them. It is often the case where this "explodes" into acts of insanity. The show certainly plays this up to an extreme, but it does so effectively: when reality hits you in the face, it can feel like everything around you is falling apart in the worst possible way.

2. The way the bird story flows through everything. This is bit "artsy", but color is something we don't really think about much, as a people. The colors of the world are beautiful: the pure white of snow, the green of a forest, the blue of the ocean, the orange of the sun, etc. It is equally true that there are just as many colors are there are types of people. For me personally, as I've become older, I've found that experiencing those "colors" has reaped great reward, through relationships and perspectives. I hope to continue to meet as many colors as I can.

I've said before that the show is overly melodramatic and a great dark fantasy. I still hold to that. The flaws of the show are simple, as is the plot. There isn't anything deep here to realize that you haven't seen before. This is a tried and true friendship story (much to the chagrin of yuri fans). Rather, the combination of the fantastic and the mundane is what I think worked for me personally. Had BRS been all action, or the story been all "school girl", I don't think it would have been as interesting to watch. The blending of the two definitely needs work, and this is a criticism I share with the OVA as well. However unlike the OVA, the anime uses this blending to provide interesting plot twists and character development.

In particular, I thought the strongest and weakest element here was Yu. This is also the other key criticism I have with the anime. With eight episodes, the narrative was too wide. While I certainly felt for Yu and Saya, it really took the focus off of the first half....when it shouldn't have felt like halves at all. The jump from Yomi/Kagari to Yu/Saya was not smooth, and after Deadmaster is gone everything felt dropped to move on to the next "arc", only to attempt to tie together in the end.

Moving toward the ending, I felt irritated that we do not get any attempt to answer Yu's existence in the real world. Why hasn't she aged? Why is she going to school!? We see some concern for Mato missing in a previous episode, yet nothing when she actually arrives home? This kind of stuff bothers me. Why introduce elements to the story and not follow through? Who is taking care of Yu, Saya? And why is Strength alive again in the end? What was the point of having a death scene if she just comes back alive like nothing ever happened? I could raise even more questions but....

In the end it comes down to how much I did or did not enjoy BRS. Truth is, I enjoyed it quite a bit. The plot is at least coherent, and most of the questions I have aren't really important to the plot....mostly just wondering for the sake of personal satisfaction. I can even explain away much of it in my mind, but still I wish writers would be more thorough with some of these trickier plot elements, particularly when time constraints are an issue. I wish I could say this was unique to Noitamina, but unfortunately this is a general issue with the anime industry - far too many good ideas hurt by unfocused writing, poor pacing, and rushed endings.

So, far from being the best anime ever, it is at least a good anime. I'd recommend it to anyone looking for a short fantasy story with some slightly complex themes and a happy ending, with just enough action/drama to keep from being bored.

[dan-heron]

hmmm, now I'm totally not stealing you people's explanations about the themes to write fanfics.