[Manga] Chapter 503 Discussion

[NoLongerSane]

Originally Posted by DeDe

Oh Kishi, you are your views on women. Kurenai's dad(talk about a random character appearance) puts Gai, Kakashi, Asuma, Kurenai, and some others in some shield to protect them from the Kyuubi attack. Kurenai protests and we get a good Will of Fire speech like the Second gave to Danzou and Hiruzen before he sacrificed himself. How the old generation protects the next generation. So when they grow up, they can train and protect the next generation. Nicely ties into the things Asuma, Kakashi, and Gai actually did. But then we get this.

"But, my daughter, you're a woman."
"at the least, entrust the will of fire to the child who is my future grandchild!'
"make it a promise to your father here ...I have faith in you."

It just reads to me that Kishi feels that women are just baby machines and that is the greatest thing they can accomplish in this manga. Breeding the next generation. Plus, Kurenai was about 14 at this point. I'm sorry, but that is creepy. If my dad said that to me at that age.

At least though this might mean we will get to see Kurenai give birth and Shikamaru play daddy.

Well, the message that Kishi was probably trying to relay to the reader was that Kurenai was very important to the village's future and a nod to her becoming pregnent in the current time, but how the message was relayed came off sexist.

It would not be the first time that a message has come off awray. Remember the reunion of Team 7 a few arcs back, in what Kishis was relaying to the viewer was that Sakura still cared for Sauske that she could not bring herself to kill him. That message was recieved but at the cost of watching Sakura's character burial by her actions prior, at that moment, and after being saved from being kill by Sauske.

[Nosauz]

Other than the Kurenai bit the overall chapter was excellent, it made the mystique of the fourth and fiery nature of kushina to be a bit more mellow and although their relationship seems abrupt, you can feel the melodrama of two (not in a bad way). I mean I'm going to take kishimoto's word and beleive the bijuu are in fact like natural disasters, if one were to "disappear' say a hurricane, that energy may at one point have disappated but the energy does return in some form or another hence the purpose of "controlling/harnessing" the bijuu's power. Anyway I wish Kushina was more than just Naruto's mom, and just the nine tails vessel before naruto because from the short bit of exposition we do get that's all it makes her out to be. At least in the lat panel it's somewhat character building.

[Langus]

I really enjoyed this chapter. It really explained a lot! Though I am kind of sad that my little theory that Tobi is Kakashi's long lost friend was thoroughly washed down the drain.

[cyberdemon]

Did Kushina get fashion tips from Lelouch on the cover? Um... nice hat? lol!

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by nubby

something is wrong...... Madara's hand drips off as if he was Zetsu.......

More evidence that Zetsu created Tobi. Since White Zetsu's clones are known to be weak, it would fit with Tobi's avoidance of direct combat. And it would also explain why Tobi did not want Zetsu to fight Naruto - because Zetsu is what keeps Tobi alive.

[Lamar]

Loved the color page, especially the part where he has her hair up into 9 parts. Looks like the Kyuubi. Creative.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by DeDe

But then we get this.

"But, my daughter, you're a woman."
"at the least, entrust the will of fire to the child who is my future grandchild!'
"make it a promise to your father here ...I have faith in you."

It just reads to me that Kishi feels that women are just baby machines and that is the greatest thing they can accomplish in this manga. Breeding the next generation. Plus, Kurenai was about 14 at this point. I'm sorry, but that is creepy. If my dad said that to me at that age.

I knew this scene would be brought up but wow, I'm kinda surprised people haven't mentioned the splash page with Kushina in the kitchen making breakfast for her family.

Kishi being sexist again and saying a woman's place is in the kitchen!!

Surprised he didn't show Minato giving her a firm slap in the rear before telling her to go make him a sandwich. Am I right?

Right. To be fair, Kurenai's dad's attitude not exactly unrealistic for an older man. Older generations tend to have stricter ideals about gender roles. Just as Sandaime's wife thought men too emotionally fragile to handle child birth, Kurenai's father believed it a woman's responsibility to bear children. Should also point out that he wanted to ensure Kurenai had a child because as a ninja, there is a very real possibility of dying young. So he didn't expect her to become a housewife and acknowledged her as a shinobi.

That said, yeah, that wasn't exactly an inspiring speech but the rest of the chapter was very touching. Probably the saddest since the Wave Country arc. Kishi did pretty decent job of telling the whole story behind Naruto's past.

Originally Posted by nubby

something is wrong...... Madara's hand drips off as if he was Zetsu.......

dunh duh duuuuunnnnhhh...

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Did Kushina get fashion tips from Lelouch on the cover? Um... nice hat? lol!

I think that's a character from the movie, not Kushina.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I think that's a character from the movie, not Kushina.

The image for it uses manga drawing

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

The image for it uses manga drawing

Which isn't important. I'm quite positive other movie characters have been rendered in the exact same fashion. This is clearly meant to be the red-haired chick Naruto meets when he goes back in time.

[Langus]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I knew this scene would be brought up but wow, I'm kinda surprised people haven't mentioned the splash page with Kushina in the kitchen making breakfast for her family.

Kishi being sexist again and saying a woman's place is in the kitchen!!

Surprised he didn't show Minato giving her a firm slap in the rear before telling her to go make him a sandwich. Am I right?

Right. To be fair, Kurenai's dad's attitude not exactly unrealistic for an older man. Older generations tend to have stricter ideals about gender roles. Just as Sandaime's wife thought men too emotionally fragile to handle child birth, Kurenai's father believed it a woman's responsibility to bear children. Should also point out that he wanted to ensure Kurenai had a child because as a ninja, there is a very real possibility of dying young. So he didn't expect her to become a housewife and acknowledged her as a shinobi.

That said, yeah, that wasn't exactly an inspiring speech but the rest of the chapter was very touching. Probably the saddest since the Wave Country arc. Kishi did pretty decent job of telling the whole story behind Naruto's past.



dunh duh duuuuunnnnhhh...

Oh wow... there is such a disparity between Western views of this and attitudes in Asia (specifically Japan) about this. It is NOT abnormal/wrong/anti-feminist here for women to want to be stay at home Moms. Actually, it's quite normal. I've had many of my female students tell me their dream is to "get married and be a mother".

Kishi isn't being sexist. He's writing from a very Japanese perspective and if you'll note, the way he has presented mothers in his manga is in a very positive light. They are all brave and they are all willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of their children. I think that's a far cry from "Get your ass back in the kitchen and bake me a pie."

Try a little harder to look past the proto-feminist mantras that have been shoved down your throat since birth and see that doing things another way doesn't necessarily mean it's backwards or wrong.

[james0246]

^I know my dream is to "get married and be a mother", and hopefully I can be a good wife/mother...

That being said, I had no problem with the colour cover page. It was cute. And, honestly, for all we know Kushina could have left after breakfast and killed a 100 shinobi while defending Konoha... But, Kurenai's father's words were annoying...

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by james0246

^I know my dream is to "get married and be a mother", and hopefully I can be a good wife/mother...

That being said, I had no problem with the colour cover page. It was cute. And, honestly, for all we know Kushina could have left after breakfast and killed a 100 shinobi while defending Konoha... But, Kurenai's father's words were annoying...

I mean his words is like inserting slapstick right in the middle of the action, it exemplifies the fight view the contrast in tone and nature of the words but still overall their rather bland and insipid. I mean clearly women are on the front line it's as if the entire village is barren and kurenai is the only one who can have those little pesky babies. Also it really wasn't needed, Kishi really didn't need to tell us that the kids were sealed by some barrier, it's just not pertinent when you have the fucking kyuubi wrecking the village. Still very good chapter and much better than the previous chapters leading up to this one.

[TwilightHack]

Kishi being sexist with the cover of Kushina in the kitchen?? No way. This accusation is just evidence that the world is being brainwashed by feminist extremists who accuse anything that portrays a woman serving as sexist. And the bit about Kurenai, I think people are missing the point has made many times before... that it is the NEXT generation that is important and needs to be protected, to carry on. He goes as far to label them the "King" in the bit with Shikamaru.

Comon people, really just grow up.

Anyways.

This chapter was just... it's like a tragic love story.

Even if Kushina did die with the 9-tails in her and Minato survived, I'm pretty sure he would've eventually wasted away because of her death.

p.s. Minato is a beast... he'd wreck anyone in his way.

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Kishi being sexist? No way. This accusation is just evidence that the world is being brainwashed by feminist extremists who accuse anything that portrays a woman serving as sexist.

Really? There just hasn't been any strong woman character who can fight in Naruto, all the heroes and big bads are all men/androguness. I mean it's more probably that kishi is very lazy when he writes his women, because either they are man eaters or their surville little damsels. Still to dismiss a legitimate criticism as "brainwashed by feminist exremists" really doesn't make your argument seem all that great.

[kk2extreme]

enter DBZ, is Chi Chi really that useful in terms of story building (being the main character's wife and all, and mother of Gohan and Gotan)?

[Blaat]

I loved the AU colour page, shame we'll never get to see more of it.

[Jehuty]

I don't think that Kishi is being sexist.

He is, however, a bad story teller. Not as bad as Tite, thank God, but still bad enough. I just don't think he *knows* how to develop a female character outside the "mother/healer" scope.

I don't think he was being sexist with Kurenai though - take Gears of War 2 -- there's very few humans left, and women are pretty much designated to be baby factories to help restore humankind. It's not being sexist -- it's ensuring a means of survival for a species.

In Kurenai's father's case you might not feel that way, but we're all pretty much programmed to leave a legacy behind us -- a genetic one, at least. So it'd be natural that Kurenai's dad wanted her to not risk her life and pass the genes on, considering that in the Shinobi world, you can die awfully young.

[Spicy~Noodles]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Really? There just hasn't been any strong woman character who can fight in Naruto, all the heroes and big bads are all men/androguness. I mean it's more probably that kishi is very lazy when he writes his women, because either they are man eaters or their surville little damsels. Still to dismiss a legitimate criticism as "brainwashed by feminist exremists" really doesn't make your argument seem all that great.

There are plenty of strong women in Naruto, just not as many or as significant to the story as the men. Anyways I'm not going to be drooling for a female character to suddenly take the lead and steal the show away from the men who made it what it is. I don't want to see Naruto turn into what the Final Fantasy series is today. I love women, but they aren't all toting guns and diving into combat with a moments notice. Women aren't solely interested in overwhelming physical/magical powers, they have interests in peaceful things too. There are strong women in Naruto, like the current Hokage and just about every other female ninja portrayed in this manga. They just behave like asian women sometimes, don't hate them because Kishimoto doesn't see women like westerners do, I didn't think women needed to be arrogant, cocky, made of muscle, and blood thirsty all the time. People like flowers and sometimes need to cry in their moment of weakness, it's apart of human nature.

I mean comon!!!! Did you not just read the latest chapter? Didn't Kushina just single handedly chain down the COMPLETE Nine tails fox when shes hanging on to a thread of life and was happy to die to save her husband and child? Kishimoto created such a selfless and powerful female character for us all to read and follow, I feel it's such disrespect to Kishimoto to toss aside such good work as if she's just a trash character. If you got a problem with how this manga is protraying women, FAIRY TAIL is pretty good and will probably suit your tastes better.

Still to dismiss a legitimate criticism, "I mean it's more probably that kishi is very lazy when he writes his women." REALLY doesn't make your argument seem all that great.

[janipani]

Wow really nice chapter.. best one for long time.

But kushina's make-up was really ruint back there