[Manga] Chapter 503 Discussion

[morbosfist]

Mutation by its nature tends to produce results different than its source. It may be nothing more than plot convenience that the Sharingan just keeps getting ridiculous upgrades, but it having different abilities in itself is wholly justifiable.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Well regardless of whatever future within Naruto. I always thought that... these tailed beasts...even seperate..well in this case now only the bijuu were all demi-gods.. and the only difference between the Jyuubi and the Rikkodou Sennin would've been the human form. And a spiritual form -> Jyuubi.

That's because it would be extremely weird and hard to accept that someone out of the blue starts to teach ninjutsu, with all the knowlegde of it... while the world has never heared or seen it before. Kind of same concept with Jesus walking on earth explaning and teaching us humans about the supernatural. Without divine intervention that shouldn't even be possible right?

My point is... if at some point. The Jyuubi would be revived... then Naruto (alone) might not be good or strong enough. It'll require probably more. Even if he would be a very distant family member of the Senju/Sage of Six Paths. It would probably require the help of...an Uchiha aswell. In this case. Sasuke no doubt. Or... Itachi's gift.

Also... it would be possible ofcourse to create new techniques but would it even be possible to create new ones... with creatures not of the Naruto realm such as the Shiki Fuujin monster. Aren't such kind of contracts or even the creation of such beings made/formed by a divine entity? or am i once again thinking wayy to deep?

[Ashaman]

I think you are thinking to deeply. Sage could have just opened the door to something amazing, and everybody followed.

I doubt even 1/10 of the jutsu today existed back then.

He was th first to discover it, but people have expanded on it, prob including/discovering stuff like the Death God seal.

The Sharingan having Tailed Beast related stuff - if you think about it, it could have been a mutation down the line caused by Sages staatus as a Jinchuuriki. Mutations occur all the time - the fact that an ancestor had a physical and spiritual connection with the tailed beasts easily explains Bjuu related abilities.

The same for Wood jutsu.

Just becasue the ancestor doesn't have that ability does not mean it couldn't have been influenced by it.

[nubby]

Originally Posted by Ashaman

I think you are thinking to deeply. Sage could have just opened the door to something amazing, and everybody followed.

I doubt even 1/10 of the jutsu today existed back then.

He was th first to discover it, but people have expanded on it, prob including/discovering stuff like the Death God seal.

The Sharingan having Tailed Beast related stuff - if you think about it, it could have been a mutation down the line caused by Sages staatus as a Jinchuuriki. Mutations occur all the time - the fact that an ancestor had a physical and spiritual connection with the tailed beasts easily explains Bjuu related abilities.

The same for Wood jutsu.

Just becasue the ancestor doesn't have that ability does not mean it couldn't have been influenced by it.

YOU are thinking too deeply. It just comes down to plot device. When Kishi wants the Sharingan to do something impossible, it will happen.

[Lunarskylar]

from what i seem to understand, the sharingan's bijuu controlling abilities seem exclusive to the kyuubi, as evidenced in the fact that sasuke did not try to use any sharngan abilities related to controlling or suppressing the hachibi's chakra
why this is? Only kishi knows

[Sugetsu]

Originally Posted by Sworn to Believe

Pain created the Akatsuki, you mean? Or Tobi? Not sure what you're trying to say there...

Tobi's plans...God knows what they are. I think there's a lot more to them than either what meets the eye or he tells people they are. Obviously he wants Naruto...and the Kyuubi. Maybe the reason he's trying to gather the tailed beasts is to re-create the Jyuubi (another potential connection to Rikudou Sennin/Sage of Six Paths)?

As for not expecting Naruto to win over Nagato, Tobi doesn't know everything. Perhaps he didn't know the full extent of what Naruto was capable of (not just jutsu/power-wise), and he probably didn't expect the Katsuyu thing and didn't expect Naruto to know enough/figure out enough to survive the destruction of Konoha. And probably expected Naruto to try to defeat Pein/Nagato, not make peace with him and remind him of Jiraiya's (and Nagato's original) ideals. Plus Tobi didn't know that Naruto knew of Nagato's past and all that stuff.

Well my biggest question is: Who created Akatsuki and for what purpose? Maybe the answer will be revealed to us at the end of the manga, or perhaps I am overlooked some important info.

Edit: Another very important question is, what was the role of pain in akatsuki? (or maybe he is still alive somehow?)

[Suomi]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Well my biggest question is: Who created Akatsuki and for what purpose? Maybe the answer will be revealed to us at the end of the manga, or perhaps I am overlooked some important info.

Edit: Another very important question is, what was the role of pain in akatsuki? (or maybe he is still alive somehow?)

Well...perhaps Madara created it, and then somehow met Nagato and Konan, and convinced them to join him or something like that. And when he was weakened, or whatever, he handed over the leadership pretty much to Nagato, who had become Pein by this point (or maybe not fully but he spent his time in the Akatsuki creating the six paths)...until Madara could come back and either take back over of pull the strings behind the scenes, or something...and then he did whatever he did and reappeared as Tobi (I'm convinced Tobi has at least SOMETHING to do with Madara...), but not revealing himself to the rest of the Akatsuki and later. And maybe Pein was telling Naruto and whomever that he created it and so as to hide the knowledge of Madara having survived.
As for what purpose? Probably to bring allies to his side in the coming coup d'etat and/or destruction of Konoha, or whtaever he planned...world domination, in a totally un-cliche way, probably had something to do with it.
HOWEVER do take this with a grain of salt, as it is speculation, there's no evidence....

Another possibility is Nagato did create it himself, but met Madara at some point and Madara said something or other to convince Nagato/Pein to work with him and they sort of lead it together...

[solidguy]

I still think sasuke wil end up getting that other half of the kyubi from the Death God which is why i also think minato will be making another appearance as well as the 1st, 2nd and 3rd hokage.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Sugetsu

Well my biggest question is: Who created Akatsuki and for what purpose? Maybe the answer will be revealed to us at the end of the manga, or perhaps I am overlooked some important info.

Edit: Another very important question is, what was the role of pain in akatsuki? (or maybe he is still alive somehow?)

Isn't all this already obvious? Madara told at the kage summit about the revival of the 10-tails, about the role of the rinnegan, about the secret script at the Uchiha place which tells about the 10-tails and the rinnegan.

Which means Madara was the one to learn about the 10-tails from the script, then he learned about the existence of a rinnegan user. Everything was given for his plan, to manipulate the rinnegan user to do what he wants but not let him know his true plan until all the demons are collected. Nagato was a mentally weak guy, so Madara used him, Madara told him about the power of the 10-tails and about the rinnegan being able to control it, then he probably told him to create akatsuki, or just hinted that so that Nagato would think that he was the one who had the idea to create that organization. Then Nagato created akatsuki and was leading it, he was giving the actual orders but the mastermind behind all that was Madara. Also Itachi was after Madara, so he most likely joined akatsuki not because of Nagato but because of Madara. Madara knew about Itachi's true intentions, that he is a spy who works against akatsuki, but he never told that to Pain/Nagato, the reason is probably that he feared Itachi could have done much more damage to him if he forced Itachi to take action. Also Madara did know of Itachi's plan, to die against Sasuke, he also did know about Itachi's sickness, so he just waited for Itachi to die instead of provoking a confrontation which would cause damage to akatsuki. And since Madara was not the direct leader of akatsuki Itachi was not able to reach him anyway, so Itachi was not a direct threat to Madara as long as he was hiding himself behind Nagato.

[timeless]

If Itachi knew Madar's true plan, why didn't he tell Pain since it conflicts with Nagato's plan.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by timeless

If Itachi knew Madar's true plan, why didn't he tell Pain since it conflicts with Nagato's plan.

It's not like Itachi actually supported Akatsuki. So, I could see him hoping that both Madara and Nagato would kill each other...

[Lunarskylar]

imo from the flashbacks of the rain trio's childhoods, originally the whole group of ninja concept (along with the similar looking uniforms) began with yahiko, nagato and konan
Nagato states that more of the group began to die afterwards, which suggests that they weren't completely the strongest group anymore after losing yahiko
I wouldnt be surprised if ultimately all the ninjas from the original akatsuki had died when nagato and konan were eventually approached by madara and zetsu, who offered a more successful way to acheiving 'peace' through the power of the bijuus

Thinking on this theory makes me wonder how sasuke factored into pain's version of his plan. Since when madara teleports back after the deidara sasuke fight, he comments of the ability of sasuke's eyes. Why would this matter to pain unless he was just trying to convince pain that sasuke would be a potential good member for akatsuki.
Or is it something like the weapon that pain talked about to have minimals of peace being the jyuubi jinchuriki, with sasuke in mind to be its potential host, and ultimately the weapon that would help bring peace

[TwilightHack]

I'm a little bit confused though, in the current arc... is the Kyuubi still at 50% chakara or has it regenerated so it's back to full strength?

[morbosfist]

50% is in Naruto, the other half is in the Death God's stomach.

[TwilightHack]

Thank you.

Next question then... so the Kyuubi in it's current state is weaker than most of the other bijuu since half its chakara is gone? That'd be pretty lame in my opinion.

Also... the 8-tails was sealed in a jar, a jar. Knowing that I don't get why sealing the 9-tails would have been conceptually impossible, unless the 9-tails was at least twice as strong as the 8-tails. The Shiki Fujin is great but it downplays Minato's skills as a seal master since the seal, while stronger, couldn't do what the former Raikage's jar did.

I suppose we'll have to see what the advantages of the "New Seal" are.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Next question then... so the Kyuubi in it's current state is weaker than most of the other bijuu since half its chakara is gone? That'd be pretty lame in my opinion.

No, if anything it is leagues beyond the others. It's more accurate to say that its yang chakra is missing. My guess would be that the Kyuubi is still at full strength, but cannot properly manifest itself lacking half its physical being. But then again it might be at half power. Kishi's just made a terrible mess of this by deciding to do this ying/yang nonsense which he will undoubtedly pull up later as some sort of Chekhov's gun.

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

Also... the 8-tails was sealed in a jar, a jar. Knowing that I don't get why sealing the 9-tails would have been conceptually impossible, unless the 9-tails was at least twice as strong as the 8-tails. The Shiki Fujin is great but it downplays Minato's skills as a seal master since the seal, while stronger, couldn't do what the former Raikage's jar did.

The most logical explanation is that their strength is exponential, doubling with each tail. Thus, the nine tails is the most impressive of the lot.

[madv2c]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

that would make the five tails literally over 4 billion times stronger than Shukakku. And from there goes to astronomically large numbers.

Dude, what? lol

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by madv2c

Dude, what? lol

Yeah, I just realized I made a bit of an error in math. But anyway, after consulting my calculator I realized it's not as bad as 4 billion but it's still unlikely IMO. It's damn near in the 1000's and I don't think that one Kyuubi equals a 1000 Shukkakkus.

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

T
Next question then... so the Kyuubi in it's current state is weaker than most of the other bijuu since half its chakara is gone? That'd be pretty lame in my opinion.

You'll notice that while Kyuubi had both yin/yang chakra sealed in Kushina, when the seal broke kyuubi escaped and took physical form. While inside Naruto Kyuubi has to use Naruto's body as a medium to transform. This means Kyuubi can't take on any physical form on his own without both chakras. His Power and chakra amount is still the same as ever. Minato didn't seperate his amount, hi just seperated his evil side from good (makes me wander if this is kyuubi's good side, how much the bad side is more evil)
In the begining of Naruto it's been said that bijuus are invicible (later said by Chiyo to in second part). But Kishi overpowered Akatsuki members so much, like how did Hidan took the blood from Yugito for his ritual when she was fully transformed. Also Samehada was just as overpowered, being able to consume almost all of eight tail's chakra. Makes me wander why Sage of six paths went trough all of that trouble with the bijuus when he could have used samehada to defeat ten tails. (if sword existed back than that is). Bijuu look nothing special anymore, so Naruto havig mastered kyuubi means almost nothing because there will alvaus be someone stronger than him aka Sasuke.

Also i can bet that with all of his new powers and everything Naruto would still not be a match for Sasuke. He will just look at Naruto with his new godlike eye powers and demage/hurt him prety badly.

While Naruto had to fight the Kyuubi himself for a new power level, Sasuke just took new pair of eyes. Shows how much Kishi favors Sasuke insted of Naruto and other rookie members.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

Yeah, I just realized I made a bit of an error in math. But anyway, after consulting my calculator I realized it's not as bad as 4 billion but it's still unlikely IMO. It's damn near in the 1000's and I don't think that one Kyuubi equals a 1000 Shukkakkus.

Not really. Using 2 as a base, you get: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, and 512. So, more like 256 times stronger. Not a very good assessment, even I'll admit as much, but tails = power and this seems to make the most sense.

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Also i can bet that with all of his new powers and everything Naruto would still not be a match for Sasuke. He will just look at Naruto with his new godlike eye powers and demage/hurt him prety badly.

It would quite frankly be total bullshit for Naruto to have gone through all this crap and essentially become a physical god just to fall short again. Enough is enough. There damn well better be a decent asskicking from Naruto. I don't care what techniques Sasuke has. Naruto's got full access to the chakra of the most powerful tailed beast known. Through sheer attrition if nothing else there is no excuse for him losing to Sasuke.