Anybody seen or watching the Looney Tunes show?

[solomon]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

The only problem I have with the show...

is Lola actually.

She annoys the heck out of me.

I actually LOVE Lola, I wanna see more of her (but not too much, then it'd get gimmicky). In fact some of my favorite eps are with the two boys out with their ladies, helps that Lola and Tina are fun and well acted.

[DonQuigleone]

I agree that people do sell kids short, but I do think the show's writer's are being a bit self indulgent and not properly crafting a show to suit their audience, but are instead pandering to adults like themselves. I'm not against inserting oblique adult references, but they have to be just that, oblique. There has to be something inherently funny going on first and foremost though.

I have nothing against a show being made for someone half my age (or less...), and I don't expect myself to always enjoy such a show, but this feels like a show made for people my age, masquerading as a show for kids, and I feel that shows a poor effort on the part of the writers.

Also, 2 million is about right for the CN, but for children's television I'd say that's a poor performance. With Children's TV there are shows that every child watches, it's not such a divided market.

Some examples of how the show panders to adults:

1. They're using the Looney Tunes and not original characters. The children's demographic they're aiming for aren't going to be as familiar as adults are with the Looney Tunes. Using the Looney Tunes for such a show basically invokes nostalgia among adults viewers. Kids don't really care if characters from 50 year old serials are in a show, it doesn't add anything to the experience for them. Remakes don't satisfy kids, they satisfy the adults who watched the show themselves as kids. Who was the Rocky and Bullwinkle movie aimed at, adults who grew up with it, or the current crop of children who had probably never seen the show?

Put it this way, would the show be so notable if it wasn't Bugs Bunny or Daffy Duck in the lead?

2. Use of a Sitcom format, Sitcoms are rarely aimed at kids. Outside of family Sitcoms, very few Sitcoms have cross-generational appeal (about the only example I know is Friends).

3. Overly heavy presence of adult situations. When are kids ever going to attend dance class, or go on a date to a snazzy restaurant?

4. Lack of escapism, kids dig escapism, having something set in a world entirely different from our own, adults don't (as much).

5. Overly trendy, it feels a lot like some of the adult sitcoms that are around right now. Children, on the other hand, don't have as much of a perception for "trendiness". Kids don't have cultural biases to riff against, so it's best to use broad humour. It's one of the reasons why kids entertainment is so universally accessible. Seinfeld might only be funny for Americans living in the 90s, but Looney Tunes is fairly eternal (at least where children are concerned).

If they really wanted to bring the Looney Tunes to a new generation of kids (a laudable goal) they could have just re aired the old shorts on TV. No kid will have seen most of them (I myself have only seen a fraction). Put them on a 5 year rotation.

And if they really liked the style, they could make something new and different (some of their musical interludes are actually fairly good), but they're not really making something in a similiar style at all, they're just exploiting the name recognition to sell a funny animals sitcom. I wouldn't mind as much if they were making a new similiarly styled show. Making a sitcom with the characters in it just seems exploitative if you ask me. There's no good artistic reason for it.

[Ithekro]

Perhaps they are taking what the Japanese have been doing for years to heart...that Cartoons are not just for kid...and can sometimes not be "intended" for them.

That or they are going back to their 1930s and 1940s roots (were these were not always child friendly by today's standards).

[solomon]

You make great arguments again Don.

All of those are worthy criticisms of the show. Then again, well we are in our early 20s, and outside the shows demo. So while I very much respect your opinions, I think it's another example of us nerds taking a show too seriously and not looking at it from a fresh kids eye (which I do often).

I'm willing to go with Ithekro on his point. In fact one of TLTS' contemporaries Regular Show is very easy for teens and twenty somethings to get into. Todays media puts WAAYYY too much emphasis on demos and it's nice to have a "demo breaking" show once in a while, especially in a cartoon.

On the ratings deal, I can understand how you can say 2 million isn't good but the fact that two other shows that are deemed commercial successes (Adventure Time and Regular Show) are pulling around the same numbers would say otherwise.

Remember Spongebob is a phenomenon, everything else is just a show. Case in Point not everything on BBC gets Eastenders or Strickly Come type ratings but there still can be successes dependent on your target.

At this point I suppose we should just agree to disagree.

One thing is for certain, it's providing an avenue for the characters to stay alive and in public eye. Which is important as Bugs' 75th birthday is coming up and I can bet that this is a part of a run up to a big media gala about it. Older heads may remember a similar media shindig back in 1990.

[Dilla]

2 million is a success because it aired at 8:30 Tuesday nights compared to most children shows that air right after school (3-5 pm). Totally different time slots.

For the record, CN does air the old Looney Tune shorts daily.

[Ithekro]

Also the cartoon market is a lot different than when I was growing up. The Networks don't even air cartoons anymore, be it in the morning, afternoon, or Saturday mornings, from what I understand. It is all on cable and on channels that show cartoons basically 24/7.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Perhaps they are taking what the Japanese have been doing for years to heart...that Cartoons are not just for kid...and can sometimes not be "intended" for them.

That or they are going back to their 1930s and 1940s roots (were these were not always child friendly by today's standards).

I'm all for adult animation, (I'm on an Anime forum after all), but I don't feel this is it. I wouldn't be against this show if it's intended for adults either, as a show aimed at kids, however, I think too much of it is centered on extraordinarily adult situations.

Originally Posted by solomon

All of those are worthy criticisms of the show. Then again, well we are in our early 20s, and outside the shows demo. So while I very much respect your opinions, I think it's another example of us nerds taking a show too seriously and not looking at it from a fresh kids eye (which I do often).

When I look at it from my own perspective I find it decent, but when I put myself back to my childhood mindset (admittedly a difficult thing to do), I don't see much in it. There isn't really much here for kids, unlike the original Looney Tunes which were for everyone. It's entirely adult situations, which I can't see kids even understanding. Kids can't understand the vagaries of romantic love, so humour centered on it is pointless.

On the ratings deal, I can understand how you can say 2 million isn't good but the fact that two other shows that are deemed commercial successes (Adventure Time and Regular Show) are pulling around the same numbers would say otherwise.

I have to admit I haven't seen either of those shows. Or even heard of them.

Remember Spongebob is a phenomenon, everything else is just a show. Case in Point not everything on BBC gets Eastenders or Strickly Come type ratings but there still can be successes dependent on your target.

Of course, but with kids TV there doesn't tend to be much middle ground. Those shows you're citing are all aimed at older ages.

Originally Posted by Dilla

2 million is a success because it aired at 8:30 Tuesday nights compared to most children shows that air right after school (3-5 pm). Totally different time slots.

Which would confirm my suspicions that it's not really meant for kids, that's not a usual time slot for children's television.

For the record, CN does air the old Looney Tune shorts daily.

Good to hear.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Also the cartoon market is a lot different than when I was growing up. The Networks don't even air cartoons anymore, be it in the morning, afternoon, or Saturday mornings, from what I understand. It is all on cable and on channels that show cartoons basically 24/7.

Sad, terrestrial TV still airs a lot of cartoons in the 2-5 pm slot here.


On my own part, I think this show is part of a general trend in American animation that's basically stratifying shows into 2 categories: 1. Kids TV and 2. Adult Comedy Animation. I don't really like this trend much, most of the kids TV is either too Toyetic or too simplistic for an adult to really enjoy, and I find most of the adult animation tries too hard to be edgy. Consequently both categories are basically restricted to a narrow audience.

Lots of people obviously don't like the overly kidsy shows (with some exceptions), and lots of people (like me) don't like stuff that's openly edgy either. This is why the audience for 2D animation is smaller then it's ever been before. At least in the 90s you had box office smashes like the Lion King, widely viewed and appreciated by all.

I like somewhat edgy comedy, sure (I loved Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei), but I dislike the current crop of shows that seem completely populated by 20-something year olds, or worse, filled with jokes about bodily functions. 90s TV cartoons aimed at kids could be appreciated by almost everyone, kids, their teen siblings, and their parents could all enjoy them. I don't really see as much of that any more. Kids have their TV, young adults have theirs, adults have theirs. And cartoons have become relegated to being a nerdy niche.

[solomon]

I dunno Don.

TLTS isn't for adults, it's tecnically for kids but I think adults can enjoy it too like some of the better Pixar Dreamworks stuff.

My references to other CN shows probably wasn't the best for you being in Ireland (that's RTE country not BBC NI country right?) but Dilla is right in that it's a success by various metrics. I don't know how it is in Ireland but in America, Kid TV has been dominated by cable channels since the late 90s. Terrestrials don't so much cartoons anymore, when they did they did on saturday mornings and weekday afternoons only.

Nickelodeon, Disney channel, Cartoon Network and others show them ALL DAY (almost). So that's the context we were using the rating success. Especially because you have those and other channels, there is a lot of competition. And with audience fragmentation any show that gets a certain number of viewers (over a million) is deemed a relative success dependent on network and producer targets.

I share your frustration with the American animation industry. I think the Japanese industry while much more distinct than the US one in targeted audience is also constrained by certain glass ceilings.

Frankly, by this point and time, I can't really worry about it anymore. If someone comes in and breaks some ground again GREAT. But in an age of dwindling numbers and budgets, you can't expect a certain level of risk. You never really can in the commerical media landscape.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by solomon

I dunno Don.

TLTS isn't for adults, it's tecnically for kids but I think adults can enjoy it too like some of the better Pixar Dreamworks stuff.

It may be technically for kids, but I stand by my gut feeling that it's style and subject matter is aimed entirely at adults. There's nothing for kkids to latch onto. My guess is that most of that 2 million people watching it at 8:30 at night are not kids.

My references to other CN shows probably wasn't the best for you being in Ireland (that's RTE country not BBC NI country right?) but Dilla is right in that it's a success by various metrics. I don't know how it is in Ireland but in America, Kid TV has been dominated by cable channels since the late 90s. Terrestrials don't so much cartoons anymore, when they did they did on saturday mornings and weekday afternoons only.

We get RTE and BBC NI. RTE is the main thing I go by in terms of children's television, it's the same as it ever was.

We do have cable and satellite, but I don't think it ever achieved quite the penetration it achieved in the US. People still generally tend to watch the big channels most (BBC, RTE [in ireland], Channel 4, ITV and Sky, the main satellite channel). My guess is that the biggest competition for terrestrial television isn't Cable, but the internet.

I should add though that I've never lived in a cable area, so my view may not be entirely right. Then again, I never really missed out on any super popular shows either. Only spongebob and Dragonball never appeared on RTE. In that respect RTE isn't bad, even if it never really makes anything great itself.

Nickelodeon, Disney channel, Cartoon Network and others show them ALL DAY (almost). So that's the context we were using the rating success. Especially because you have those and other channels, there is a lot of competition. And with audience fragmentation any show that gets a certain number of viewers (over a million) is deemed a relative success dependent on network and producer targets.

Maybe so, but children still have their general viewing habits, and they don't usually watch kids tv that late.

You also have to bear in mind that CN is not purely aimed at kids, it has a very hefty amount of programming aimed at adults, especially as you go after prime time (and I don't just mean adult swim). If this was on Nickelodeon or Disney I'd be inclined to say it's definitely was intended to be for kids, but with Cartoon Network you can't be as sure, they tend to skew older.

I share your frustration with the American animation industry. I think the Japanese industry while much more distinct than the US one in targeted audience is also constrained by certain glass ceilings.

Yes indeed. Though in writing for this thread I did stumble across "My life as a Teenage Robot", it's actually pretty good. Both sides of the pacific have their relative problems.

What we need is the next Simpsons. And we need it to not be a comedy.

Frankly, by this point and time, I can't really worry about it anymore. If someone comes in and breaks some ground again GREAT. But in an age of dwindling numbers and budgets, you can't expect a certain level of risk. You never really can in the commerical media landscape.

I think some new thinking is going to be required, TV as it is now is dead anyway. But there's certainly a gap there for making good animation and selling it to a hardcore audience. Look at the success of Anime in the US, after all. American cartoon programs tried to imitate Anime stylistically (particularly Shonen Action shows), but they never really "got" what people like in anime.

America clearly has animation talent, but it's scope for artistic expression has been severely restricted. You'd never get a Tatami Galaxy or Penguindrum getting made in the US, and that's the difference.

[solomon]

Again good points.

Just to clarify though I did check the numbers and the show is largely kid attracting. 18-49 demo is like the other kid shows, low. Now that new THUNDERCATS show on the other hand.

Also, hehehe, it's probably because you grew up in a non cable area with still strong terrestrial broadcasters but if a kid is up, they'll be watching tv if their parents let them. 8-8 30 pm is NOTHING. Cartoon Network used to have family oriented stuff 24/7 when I was a kid. Heck Nick until a little while ago showed Spongebob at 8pm nightly (still do on the weekends) but then moved up their Nick at Night sitcoms up earlier and thats just because some of the sitcoms had kid audience overlap.

[Magin]

Now, I first off will admit that I've only seen maybe a handful of episodes, if even that much... having grown up with the original series, the first and foremost put-off is simply the animation style. Although, the Daffy Duck Wizard clip is pure awesomeness. But anyways, what I feel is the biggest problem (and again, I'm comparing with the original series) is that the basic premise of the show was originally that the character(s) had a situation or problem they faced, and had to use some sort of wit (or lack thereof, in certain character's cases) to get through the problem, and it usually was very comedic in nature. This new show... is more like taking the characters, and just seeing how they would deal with everyday life, which I believe falls under the sitcom trope.

Now for my Bugs Bunny bias... the latest episode I saw was where Daffy and Porky are pretending to be cops, while Bugs apparently gets addicted to some sort of drink. Daffy and Porky, I could understand that situation, since Daffy was always an idiot and pays in one way or another for it (although the way he paid for it was rather underwhelming). But Bugs... he was almost always the smart one, and for him to become addicted to the drink... totally out of character. [/end rant about episode]

Sadly, it looks like the old Looney Tunes will remain as reruns (although that's not really too bad)... maybe if the predictions about this show getting better actually happen, I might tune in more often

[solomon]

Meh these kinda shows can always evolve.

But again, frankly it just goes to show, traditions die hard.

It was hard for me, but I came to look at the show on it's own not comparing to the originals. (Like comparing Lutefisk to Sushi, they're still fish but you know). After I did that and relaxed a little, I came to enjoy the show even as I conceded that it has various kinks to work out.

I guess that's why it's aimed at the younger set, because they aren't wed to the originals like most people who came of age in the 90s and before are.

This was made by two guys who have been on new LT stuff since the 90s, from new 90s shorts in classic style like Box Office Bunny to the Classic inspired original fare like Animaniacs to new kid oriented Space Jam to newer TV series like Duck Dodgers. They said that they originally wanted to do a sketch comedy type format, which I think would be MUCH more interesting and flexible visually but hey, c'est deja fini. They wanted to use this format to explore Bugs and Daffy and co. as characters, so you can look at it as an Animaniacs vs. Tiny Toons type approach.

[Vexx]

This is like watching any sequel Disney series after a great movie... its like no one on the project had the slightest idea what made the original so popular. They put Eeyore on meds, they lobotomized Stitch, they... well carry on.

I don't hate the idea but it came across as a dim shadow of the originals (that anyone can get in Looney Tune Collections or scanning the Intarweb). The source material is biting, sarcastic, violent, and funny as hell. The characters are unrepentant about their extremes. Animaniacs and Tiny Toons did a *fair* job of recreating that feel but this? <sigh> ...

The Wizard comic was pretty amusing in a general sense and Daffy seems to have good taste in elf womens...

[solomon]

Well you know, it's just..........different.

Well I think I'll finish up this thread seeing as how this is aimed at a new generation that isn't AS wed to the originals. Make no mistake I ADORE the originals as probably many who grew up in the 90s and before did.

The further back you go, the harder it is to accept the change. And even on it's own I think it needs some work. Specifically, the animation acting needs to be better and the directing needs to be snappier. Conceptually it isn't bad but it definetly needs more punch and accents. The 90s Warners stuff managed to have good directorial work despite being very script influenced (although I think it got weaker as the decade wore on).

One of the Family Guy directors, Swinton Scott is coming on board for the second season, we will see if he can't imbue the show with some more pep and zing. It'd be awesome if they managed to get some old Animaniacs people on it, but that's more wishful thinking on my part.

Long story short, I like it but it's an acquired taste at the very least. You really have to be willing to separate the two. And remember, the two veteran directors like to use the characters, but know better than to try to redo the originals because they likely can't today and even if they did, people wouldn't go for it cause it's just not "the originals".

Again, acquired taste.

....And dat's de end!

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by solomon

One of the Family Guy directors, Swinton Scott is coming on board for the second season, we will see if he can't imbue the show with some more pep and zing. It'd be awesome if they managed to get some old Animaniacs people on it, but that's more wishful thinking on my part.

....And dat's de end!

Actually, that might prove very interesting (a mashup of Simpson/Familyguy sensibilities with Looney madness). I'm okay with re-interpretation... but bubblewrapping/pablum/softening can get me irritated (Care Bear -itis dating from the Carebear Era of Cartoons I suppose).

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Perhaps they are taking what the Japanese have been doing for years to heart...that Cartoons are not just for kid...and can sometimes not be "intended" for them.

That or they are going back to their 1930s and 1940s roots (were these were not always child friendly by today's standards).

Some of the old Nickelodeon shows from the 90's had some nice humor thrown in for the parents. I've gone back and watched early episodes of Rugrats, for instance, and was amazed how hilarious the parents and especially grandfather was, something I never really perceived as a kid.

I've not seen much of the new Looney Tunes series, but my 8 year old brother enjoys it, so I guess some kids like it.

[solomon]

I said i'd leave it alone but have to agree with above poster.

I do have to agree on the early Rugrats. The adults were just as funny as the kids, Stu and Drew always fighting reminds me of me and my brother! The later ones didn't have that though.

[DonQuigleone]

I'm inclined to say that the rugrats began to go South after the movies, with all characters they introduced.

It really went downhill after they "grew up". I wonder which genius came up with that idea. "Let's take the only show around that's about babies ... and make it just like every other teen show."