2012-01-27, 19:13 | Link #27341 | |||
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Battler being led to believe the pieces are real people deserving of sympathy is really not a detrimental thing at all and I'd be quite shocked if you were to say it's somehow morally equivalent to Erika's complete disregard for the pieces as sympathetic beings. Battler chooses to believe they experience real pain, and I suspect they probably do. The fact that he's hurt whenever they're hurt means he objects to the morality of the game and desires to put a stop to it. That's why he wants to win. This is good. Erika's inability to empathize with the pieces means the only reason she wants to win is for winning's sake, or to show how smart she is. This is bad. But it really isn't her fault (under this notion) because she has been purposefully misled (and presumably wasn't as moral an actor as Battler in the first place). If we take full comprehension out of Erika's hands we also must absolve her of her responsibility for many of her actions. I'm very uncomfortable with the notion that somehow Erika was meant to be sympathetic when she treats people like objects. Quote:
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But since what people are positing here is absurd, I'm not worried about that eventuality.
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2012-01-27, 20:36 | Link #27342 | ||
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2012-01-27, 21:28 | Link #27343 | |||||
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I think you misunderstood my point.
The fact that Battler is trusting and empathetic is what allows Beato's game to turn into mental torture and torment for him. In short he too suffered mental torture and was tormented as Erika, through the manner used by Beato was different because Battler is different from Erika. Personally I like that Battler is trusting and empathetic but I can't deny this was used against him by Beatrice, causing him pain. If you want to say Beato never had fun abusing him this is probably true but it doesn't change the fact she mentally tortured him. The game was supposed to be torture for them both. It's also possible that Battler felt sorry for Erika and merely decided not to show it. He also felt sorry for being a jerk with chick Beato but didn't want to show it in the beginning. In EP 8 he pleaded for Erika to be freed by Bern. He wasn't so cold toward her destiny... though it's understandable how he might have found hard in EP 6 to feel sympathy for Erika as she did her best to be hated. Quote:
1) Battler didn't even know the one he was supposed to solve was a mystery and so he didn't adopt a mystery mentality 2) He chose the possibility that was less probably rationally because led by his emotions that said that the people he loved couldn't commit murder. While very human in this game is definitely a handicap for him. Erika was advantaged. She knew it was a mystery and her reasoning wasn't lead astray by her feelings... though her disadvantages were that her reasoning was lead astray by her arrogance and the need to please Bern that wanted a certain type of solution. So, even through Erika's 'lack of feelings' is morally wrong it makes things easier for her. Also, considering she knows the pieces on the gameboards are mere tools for a game her coldness toward them can be compared to the coldness of a mystery reader toward the characters of the book. I don't really know a reader who feels sorry for the death of Roger Ackroyd... Quote:
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You seem to say she was told the pieces were just pieces when they're real people. I guess this can be a theory but I personally go for 'the pieces are just pieces'. If the problem is we disagree on what pieces are I guess we can't find an agreement on this one. If I misunderstood you then I'd like if you could explain your point better. Quote:
For me Beato is what Ryukishi wrote. If she lied, she lied. A character is how his writer wrote him/her, it's not like Beato had free will and could decide to be honest or a liar. I don't really care if it could be that when Ryukishi wrote that scene the first time he was planning for her to say the truth, then he changed his mind and she became a liar. In the end she lied on the status of Shannon and Kanon's body in 3 episodes. Kanon was killed in this room [EP 2] 6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead! The six people died instantly! [EP 3] Kanon is dead. Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim. [EP 4] The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered! [EP 4 referring to EP 3] However, if you want to view things differently I'm not going to argue with you. Quote:
It's like believing you're fighting to save the universe and then discovering you're merely on Star Wars set. You might decide to have your character join the emperor because... well it's all fiction and your laser sword can't even cut butter. Also it was made pretty clear that Battler had to create the 6 game and win it and, in order to do so, he has to play it the way Beato would have played it. Either he gave up on his goal for Erika's sake or he fought Erika for Beato's sake. What would you expect him to pick? |
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2012-01-27, 21:34 | Link #27344 | |
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2012-01-28, 01:13 | Link #27345 | |
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This scene happens right before Erika is described. Milady is most likely referring to Jessica who is 18 if I remember what was said in episode 7 (I believe Lion mentions her age at one point but I have no idea where that scene is). |
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2012-01-28, 01:29 | Link #27347 |
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Erika's age is described pretty inconsistently. She's indeed introduced as about the same age as Jessica, who's 17/18, but she clearly looks a tad younger than Jessica, and even "16" year old Shannon. It's said she looks like a middle schooler, but I recall (sorry, don't feel like hunting for it) a line about her being impressive for a high-school aged kid. When she argues with Maria in EP6, she responds to George's reproach by saying something like "Sorry, I'm just a kid, too.", right? And the clothes she wears on Rokkenjima were Jessica's from some time ago, yeah?
Of course, she might just be really slight for a 17 year old. Entirely possible. It seems silly that it wasn't simply stated, though, since in Prime, her age would've just been a matter of fact. I personally judge her as 14, possibly 15, and everything still kinda works. |
2012-01-28, 01:58 | Link #27349 |
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So, can anyone care to remind me who was the 17th person?
If ShKanon count as one person, we're aware of 16 people. We were told in EP5 Erika hadn't played part in any of the previous episodes. So, I guess that rules her out as a possible 17.
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2012-01-28, 04:08 | Link #27351 |
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Hmm... but if the very key to the mysteries is basically Shannon and Kanon being the same person, shouldn't they count as 1?
Or are we supposed to think something like since they achieved love they counted as real people and thus were counted separately?
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2012-01-28, 05:18 | Link #27353 |
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They can count as two or one depending on your perspective. The red truth can refer to them as either.
Regardless, this discussion has brought up an interesting point about the pieces. I personally think that the game boards are 'real' worlds that are being used by the beings of the higher level world for the purpose of the game; this fits better with Higurashi which I believe takes place in the same universe (Higurashi's worlds continued to exist even after they no longer served a purpose for the 'players', Rika/Frederica). Believing otherwise makes the whole plot in EP3 about Beatrice forgetting how precious life is due to her absolute power over it completely irrelevant and pointless, which I don't like. Also, this makes Battler's approach to the game in EP6 more reasonable; if it was just a game and the pieces had no consciousness, there would be no disadvantage for him to actually kill them, but he set up a scenario where they were just playing dead. I think this was him trying to play the game in a better way then Beato. Edit: By the way, by this theory, Meta-Battler was originally the Battler from a Fragment where the plan that Yasu wrote for EP1 was carried out and went without a hitch. |
2012-01-28, 05:22 | Link #27354 | ||
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That, combined with Beatrice's ability as the Gamemaster to control basically everything that happens, and the existence of the One Truth, pretty much confirms that the Gameboards aren't as 'real' as, say, OUR world, or a hypothetical "Rokkenjima Prime", but I do believe that the characters can think, feel, experience, etc. Quote:
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2012-01-28, 17:50 | Link #27356 |
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Does it really matter if the characters do or do not experience sorrow and pain? There's no way Battler can actually know. But since he isn't being sat down and told he's watching a fictional story or play, he makes the assumption that he's watching real people get really tortured.
Even if he's wrong, that's the right response to have. Beatrice can't possibly have thought Battler wouldn't have done that, as otherwise she would have said something to clarify. She was intentionally trying to get Battler to think it was real on some level. His emotional response is what she wanted and needed.
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2012-01-28, 18:56 | Link #27357 | |
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2012-01-28, 19:45 | Link #27358 |
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You can't really say that, since Battler is the one who made the assumptions. Beatrice just facilitated them. She never did, however, lie about the premises or rules of the game or what he had to do, and what he COULD do, and what rights were afforded to him as a player. She didn't take advantage of his ignorance save for making valid moves such as fantasy scenes, and when he was lagging behind, she used Ronove and Virgilia to bring him up to speed.
It is in no way equivalent to Erika's hypothetical "being lied to about the very rules of her abilities" scenario, and any attempts to claim otherwise is entirely wrong and fallacious.
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2012-01-28, 20:42 | Link #27359 | |||||
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She herself said the game was supposed to be torture. Also she created a setting in which his assumption was entirely believable. She tricked him into believing it. Quote:
The dialogues between Beato and Virgilia in EP 3 seem to suggest that Virgilia thought the sun and wind strategy through the game and suggested it to Beato after she had began to help Battler. Since Battler couldn't see those dialogues they surely couldn't be deceptive in attempt to trick him. Plus I seem to remember how many people were complaining about how she declared Kanon and Shannon dead in red when their body wasn't dead. And anyway the whole game was about deceiving Battler, having him see through her deception and solve it. Quote:
Also, since Battler didn't know a thing about the rules of the game, nearly every move she did took advantage of his ignorance one way or another. Quote:
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If Erika was lied about her abilities she and Battler were deceived on different things but both of them were deceived and tricked and both of them could have seen through that deception. If you want to argue Battler was subjected to more subtle trickery than Erika it still doesn't change they both were tricked. Sitting here, trying to calculate if the amount of trickery Erika underwent was too big compared to the one Battler suffered seems pretty pointless to me. As long as you don't know the answer a riddle is impossible to solve. Because Erika didn't figure the answer, for her it was impossible to solve it. Because Battler in the end managed to find the answer it became easy to solve it. Who knows if Erika, with given time, would have solved the riddle? All we know is that surely no one wanted/could help her to do it. |
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2012-01-28, 21:22 | Link #27360 | |
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You're also incapable of grasping the moral difference between Beatrice doing something uncomfortable for Battler and for herself for a reason she believed to be important and every single other Meta-Character doing something cruel and arbitrary to Erika for no reason whatsoever. It is not possible for this Erika theory, as stated, to be anything else but arbitrary torture. Beatrice did not expose Battler to something uncomfortable for no reason; quite the opposite, she had a reason which she believed made it necessary to do something that Battler would find uncomfortable, in order to rouse his anger against apparent moral wrongs. That isn't to necessarily say it was the right thing to do, but it may have been the only thing that Beatrice could have done given the restrictions put on her by Bern and Lambda. By ep5 and ep6, however, Battler and Beatrice are in some sort of position to now participate in this higher-order restriction imposition, or at least to comment on it to Erika, and per this theory it is evident that they never actually do. One can conclude nothing less than that Erika is being lied to, that these lies will cause her suffering, and that they at best do not care. Can you see that this is the natural consequence of a situation in which we accept that Erika is unable to rely on the information gathering methods she has been told that she has? Because we know for a fact how everyone acted around her and we know that nobody told her she was being lied to for no good reason. That either means nobody cared (or worse, were being actively malicious), or there was not actually a disconnect there to comment upon. Which is more likely?
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