Mobile Suit Gundam AGE - Episode 46 Discussion/Poll

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Being a killer makes you a man now?

Well for the record he DID kill quite a number of Vagans. I mean there must've been hundreds of Vagans on that battleship he shot down over olivernotes.

He's also almost oddly unable to connect with his own grandfather and home side, more or less writing off all their losses as unimportant, and they should all just give up and make peace with the Vegan.

Which doesn't make sense since he's personally witnessed Vagans soldiers gunning down women and children on the streets

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Being a killer makes you a man now?

No, manning up makes someone a man. The Vagan has done horrible things, at least the ones that are actively trying to kill him. Think how Getter Robo Armageddon turned out if the younger team tried to talk to the Invaders that were trying to eat them, or Gurren Lagann if Simon agreed with the Anti-Spiral, or Shin Mazinger Z if Kouji just let Dr.Hell gain Photon Power even though Dr.Hell's first attempt of communication with Kouji was to try and wipe out his city and kill everyone.

Kio can try his little communicate thing, just off the battlefield. No matter what he says he isn't going to change the minds of hardened and loyal soldiers just because he's a kid that really wants understanding.

[Dengar]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that Kio is naive. But to be completely fair, nothing has happened in front of Kio's eyes yet that challenges his naiveté. Such as the death of an ally due to his inaction. Someone needs to be his sacrifical Woolf.


See, the thing about being naive is that people don't magically stop being naive just because someone tells them to. Usually it takes an event that shakes up the image of the world that they've built up to that point.


IE at this point I don't think there is bad writing yet. At least not concerning Kio's actions.

[Destined_Fate]

So that means Seric is doomed.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

No, manning up makes someone a man. The Vagan has done horrible things, at least the ones that are actively trying to kill him. Think how Getter Robo Armageddon turned out if the younger team tried to talk to the Invaders that were trying to eat them, or Gurren Lagann if Simon agreed with the Anti-Spiral, or Shin Mazinger Z if Kouji just let Dr.Hell gain Photon Power even though Dr.Hell's first attempt of communication with Kouji was to try and wipe out his city and kill everyone.

Kio can try his little communicate thing, just off the battlefield. No matter what he says he isn't going to change the minds of hardened and loyal soldiers just because he's a kid that really wants understanding.

He's only tried to communicate with the aces, i.e Reina, Zeheart, and Fram, not the regular grunts, those he's just disabled.

btw, I find your comments incredibly ironic considering who you have as your avatar...you know, endless waltz and all....

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Actually during the moon battle when he was fighting he was crying out to the Vagans in general that they should all understand and not fight.

It's just with the named pilots that he goes one on one with.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that Kio is naive. But to be completely fair, nothing has happened in front of Kio's eyes yet that challenges his naiveté. Such as the death of an ally due to his inaction. Someone needs to be his sacrifical Woolf.

Which is silly because he saw the Vagans gun down woman and children on the streets yet a sick girl that had nothing to do with it all of a sudden clears them of all wrongdoing? I mean it's one thing to be naive but the war isn't about misunderstanding.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Which is silly because he saw the Vagans gun down woman and children on the streets yet a sick girl that had nothing to do with it all of a sudden clears them of all wrongdoing? I mean it's one thing to be naive but the war isn't about misunderstanding.

And what the federation has done to them is any different? Kio is torn because understands the pain of both sides.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dengar

And what the federation has done to them is any different? Kio is torn because understands the pain of both sides.

Are you trying to justify that if one side's government abandoned you it's okay to go and shoot up innocent civilians and cities that had nothing to do with it to begin with?(Some of the colonies had no Federation bases to begin with) When has the Federation ever gone and gun down civilians on sight? You can try to spin it to make the Vagans more sympathetic but it doesn't work at all. Hell the Federation even tried making peace with the Vagans to begin with and you can make all the assumptions you want but Ezcelant himself stated that he rejected it because that wasn't part of the Eden plan.

Granted, the Federation is corrupt okay we understand that. When the colonization failed the higher-ups covered it up and the rest became history. That there is a huge betrayal on their end and in the end Flit made them pay the price for it.

But wait! As Kio finds out it's not even about that. It's all for some crazy Destiny plan that Ezcelant cooked up to find the best and strongest for his Eden plan and that also involved killing his own people.

That's what makes zero sense on how Kio came to the conclusion about "understanding" and get's a big fat zero on that part. If the war started because some Federation warship opened fire by accident and killed a Vagan civilian ship, I could see that but that's not what the war is about.

It's about revealing the truth that the Vagans are being misled but as we've seen with Asemu that avenue didn't work at all. IMO that's what Kio should've been doing but crying on the battlefield is the worst place to do it.

Kio understands nothing. He meets one sick girl and all of a sudden the war is about misunderstanding? It's like meeting a sick German girl in WWII that had no knowledge of what was happening in the war and then all of a sudden every Imperial Japanese soldiers' (Loyal to Emperor) actions are excused and they should be protected? He also complains about Flit not understanding but he should be aware that Flit lost a whole lot of loved ones over the decades and that takes a huge toll on an individual. At the very least he should try to understand him instead of preaching his nonsense.

It would've helped a lot of Kio had met other civilians on Vaga that weren't too happy with the way the war was going and such but so far in AGE we've seen like nothing on the Vagan side. I mean with all of them like Zeheart, how the hell does one even reason with them?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Dengar

And what the federation has done to them is any different? Kio is torn because understands the pain of both sides.

To be fair, the current Federation has not done anything to them. In fact, the Vagans even allowed that Minister to keep the past in secret.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Are you trying to justify that if one side's government abandoned you it's okay to go and shoot up innocent civilians and cities that had nothing to do with it to begin with?(Some of the colonies had no Federation bases to begin with) When has the Federation ever gone and gun down civilians on sight? You can try to spin it to make the Vagans more sympathetic but it doesn't work at all. Hell the Federation even tried making peace with the Vagans to begin with and you can make all the assumptions you want but Ezcelant himself stated that he rejected it because that wasn't part of the Eden plan.

Granted, the Federation is corrupt okay we understand that. When the colonization failed the higher-ups covered it up and the rest became history. That there is a huge betrayal on their end and in the end Flit made them pay the price for it.

But wait! As Kio finds out it's not even about that. It's all for some crazy Destiny plan that Ezcelant cooked up to find the best and strongest for his Eden plan and that also involved killing his own people.

That's what makes zero sense on how Kio came to the conclusion about "understanding" and get's a big fat zero on that part. If the war started because some Federation warship opened fire by accident and killed a Vagan civilian ship, I could see that but that's not what the war is about.

It's about revealing the truth that the Vagans are being misled but as we've seen with Asemu that avenue didn't work at all. IMO that's what Kio should've been doing but crying on the battlefield is the worst place to do it.

Kio understands nothing. He meets one sick girl and all of a sudden the war is about misunderstanding? It's like meeting a sick German girl in WWII that had no knowledge of what was happening in the war and then all of a sudden every Nazi soldiers' (which pretty much the Vagan military is (by that I mean complete dedication to Ezcelant)) actions are excused and they should be protected? He also complains about Flit not understanding but he should be aware that Flit lost a whole lot of loved ones over the decades and that takes a huge toll on an individual. At the very least he should try to understand him instead of preaching his nonsense.

It would've helped a lot of Kio had met other civilians on Vaga that weren't too happy with the way the war was going and such but so far in AGE we've seen like nothing on the Vagan side. I mean with all of them like Zeheart, how the hell does one even reason with them?

I don't think the Nazis are a good example here. Asside from the Waffen-SS, which only accounted for a fraction of the troops deployed by Adolf Hitler, the Wehrmacht did not fight to the death, and surrendered in huge numbers. They also didn't commit wanton atrocities.

Vagans resemble the Imperial Japanese Army more than anything. Fiercely loyal and fanatical towards their leader, with countless atrocities under their belt that sure made Hitler-sama proud...

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Are you trying to justify that if one side's government abandoned you it's okay to go and shoot up innocent civilians and cities that had nothing to do with it to begin with?(Some of the colonies had no Federation bases to begin with)

This isn't about justification. This is about a vicious cycle.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

When has the Federation ever gone and gun down civilians on sight? You can try to spin it to make the Vagans more sympathetic but it doesn't work at all. Hell the Federation even tried making peace with the Vagans to begin with and you can make all the assumptions you want but Ezcelant himself stated that he rejected it because that wasn't part of the Eden plan.

They spent god knows how many years in an environment that's downright lethal. The federation is directly responsible for this. Again, my argument isn't about them being right, it is about them being in pain.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Granted, the Federation is corrupt okay we understand that. When the colonization failed the higher-ups covered it up and the rest became history. That there is a huge betrayal on their end and in the end Flit made them pay the price for it.

Flit made them pay the price for collaborating with the Vegans. There is a huge difference.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

But wait! As Kio finds out it's not even about that. It's all for some crazy Destiny plan that Ezcelant cooked up to find the best and strongest for his Eden plan and that also involved killing his own people.

The Ezelcant thing is an entirely different matter that has nothing to do with my current argument.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

That's what makes zero sense on how Kio came to the conclusion about "understanding" and get's a big fat zero on that part. If the war started because some Federation warship opened fire by accident and killed a Vagan civilian ship, I could see that but that's not what the war is about.

The Federation did nothing by accident. They condemned an entire population to death for no reason other than to protect their own sorry asses. Which is what the war is originally about.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

It's about revealing the truth that the Vagans are being misled but as we've seen with Asemu that avenue didn't work at all. IMO that's what Kio should've been doing but crying on the battlefield is the worst place to do it.

While he's going about it the wrong way, Kio is trying to reach out to his fellow human beings.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Kio understands nothing. He meets one sick girl and all of a sudden the war is about misunderstanding? It's like meeting a sick German girl in WWII that had no knowledge of what was happening in the war and then all of a sudden every Imperial Japanese soldiers' (Loyal to Emperor) actions are excused and they should be protected? He also complains about Flit not understanding but he should be aware that Flit lost a whole lot of loved ones over the decades and that takes a huge toll on an individual. At the very least he should try to understand him instead of preaching his nonsense.

To me it doesn't seem to be about one sick girl. This is about something more fundamental. While growing up he has been told that the Vagans are demons that don't deserve to live. His brief visit to Second Moon has shown that these people are human beings just like him, and moreover, these human beings have been suffering for a long time. He is aware that they have made the earthers suffer as well, and that's the point of my argument. Both sides have made the other suffer, and it doesn't have to be this way.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

It would've helped a lot of Kio had met other civilians on Vaga that weren't too happy with the way the war was going and such but so far in AGE we've seen like nothing on the Vagan side. I mean with all of them like Zeheart, how the hell does one even reason with them?

I don't see any reason for Vagans to be unhappy with the war tbh. I'd wager that all of them really, REALLY want to stop dying.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dengar

This isn't about justification. This is about a vicious cycle.

What vicious cycle?

Despite all the atrocities the Vagans committed nobody in the Federation we've seen so far wants to go as far as they did.

Even when Flit was in command he was focused on building a shield to protect.

And now that Second Moon is in the vicinty even the Federation officers aren't exactly on board with Flit's "destroy them all" mood. Even with the Plasma Driver missile the top brass wasn't keen on using it either.

This isn't Gundam SEED where the Alliance builds nukes and ZAFT retaliates with GENESIS cannons and vice versa.

Hell the Federation in G2 was willing to sit down and have peace talks and you say the whole thing is a vicicous cycle? Person A keeps attacking Person B who tries to defend himself but at the same time refuses to drop to Person's A level and keeps trying to offer peace.

They spent god knows how many years in an environment that's downright lethal. The federation is directly responsible for this. Again, my argument isn't about them being right, it is about them being in pain.

Right which is why everytime somebody brings up the atrocities committed by the Vagans you try to balance it with what only the HIGHER-Brass officers in the Federation did in the backroom.

Flit made them pay the price for collaborating with the Vegans. There is a huge difference.

Not really. This whole thing started because they abandoned the Vagans to begin with. Had that not happened in the first place they wouldn't be in the crap hole they're in now.

The Ezelcant thing is an entirely different matter that has nothing to do with my current argument.

Oh so so long as a soldier says, "I was just following orders" then he's completely innocent of his actions? My apologies I was not aware you were that kind of person.

The Federation did nothing by accident. They condemned an entire population to death for no reason other than to protect their own sorry asses. Which is what the war is originally about.

Nobody said anything about an accident. The upper brass did. Even the general populace was ignorant of the whole thing so I don't see how they are justified in destroying colonies that aren't even controlled by the Federation to begin with. (Colony Angel being one).

And no, this whole war is about Ezcelant and his destiny plan (he's the leader running the show). That's why the Federation cannot make peace with the Vagans because it's not your typical conventional war. This is one madman's experiment.

While he's going about it the wrong way, Kio is trying to reach out to his fellow human beings.

If your sales pitch doesn't work the first time then perhaps you should try another method.

To me it doesn't seem to be about one sick girl. This is about something more fundamental. While growing up he has been told that the Vagans are demons that don't deserve to live. His brief visit to Second Moon has shown that these people are human beings just like him, and moreover, these human beings have been suffering for a long time. He is aware that they have made the earthers suffer as well, and that's the point of my argument. Both sides have made the other suffer, and it doesn't have to be this way.

Let me make this very clear to you since you keep stretching these things. He met ONE girl, ONE sick girl who had very little if any connection to what was happening in the first place. And again, how does this lead Kio to the conclusion that this war is a misunderstanding? The Federation was WILLING to make compromises or a peace treaty with the Vagans. Hell Asemu was the only one who saw the crap the war was and TRIED to reveal the truth to Zeheart in the hopes that it would stop the fighting. Although he failed Asemu made a lot more progress than Kio.

I don't see any reason for Vagans to be unhappy with the war tbh. I'd wager that all of them really, REALLY want to stop dying.

Wow you really are stretching things.

Any war that goes for more than a year the populace is more than ready to revolt against you in this day and age.

It is hard to believe that the populace would follow a man for nearly 100 years with no results being produced (seriously, even Zeheart noticed that the operations were always giving the Feds a chance to survive which would prolong the war. Surely he can't be the only one to notice that). Hot heads like Zanald IMO are the kind that would lead a coup, take over, and work towards finishing the war faster.

My beef with Kio is that he preaches nonsence about understanding and to stop fighting when in fact it's NOT about misunderstanding. And in regards to his understanding how can he claim to understand the sorrows of the Vagans through one little girl he barely knew and not the pain and suffering his own grandfather (whom he spent his whole life with)? It's just plain stupidity that makes no sense.

[Dengar]

Ok, I'm done debating with someone who keeps putting words in my mouth.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Nice try but I didn't put any words in your mouth. For example you say that this whole thing is a a vicious cycle yet I'm calling you on it and you can't even back it up.

You claim that no populace would be unhappy with a person who spends 100 years waging war with a faction that they could easily win yet as history tells the populace would revolt even after a year. Hell even North Korea who worships their leader and are starving have defectors now and then.

You claim the Federation is in the wrong throughout this whole ordeal(or just as bad) yet it's them that have offered the peace treaties yet the Vagans hold even colonies that aren't aligned with them as guilty as the next guy.

If all you can come up with is straw arguments then don't come back and say I'm putting words in your mouth.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Oh so so long as a soldier says, "I was just following orders" then he's completely innocent of his actions? My apologies I was not aware you were that kind of person.

I'm done humoring you. Seriously.