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View Poll Results: Who is the ultimate shinobi? | |||
The 1st | 24 | 5.99% | |
The 2nd | 3 | 0.75% | |
Sarutobi | 117 | 29.18% | |
The 4th | 119 | 29.68% | |
Jiraiya | 27 | 6.73% | |
Orochimaru | 10 | 2.49% | |
Tsunde | 4 | 1.00% | |
Itachi | 73 | 18.20% | |
Other...[Please State Who] | 24 | 5.99% | |
Voters: 401. You may not vote on this poll |
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2004-08-24, 09:37 | Link #261 | |
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Join Date: May 2004
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i ll probably shoke many saying that but i think that from what we know until now about him, the 4 th is a bit overrated make no mistake, i think he was an awesome ninja (probably the best hokage ever after sarutobi,also he created rasengan and he could summon gamabunta) but in my opinion he gets too many credit for having sealed kyubi. i mean of course ,it s obvious that not many people can do that cause kyubi is the strongest youma but still you must admit that it was a suicidal attack cause immediatly after it,he lost his life. and if you consider that, then by example lee too can completely kick the ass of itachi with the suicidal lotus attack.but at what cost?? |
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2004-08-24, 10:50 | Link #262 | |
Cool as a Cucumber
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Holland
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Think the strenght of the 4th can very well be deducted form the sealing of the kyuubi. You try and hold a 100 feet tall fox while sucking out his soul |
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2004-08-24, 13:23 | Link #268 | |
Cool as a Cucumber
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Holland
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2004-08-24, 15:54 | Link #269 | |
日本語を食べません!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 41
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Time to rehash one of my oldest arguments: Sasuke did not Sharingan-copy Lee's fighting style. Tell me when he did. The ONLY time Sasuke has seen Lee fight is when he got his *ss kicked in two minutes: the upward kick and Leaf Shadow Dance. At every other time we've seen Lee fight, Sasuke was either not there or unconscious: Forest of Death - unconscious and recovering from Curse Seal. Prelims - Sasuke fought first and was whisked away before he could see anyone else fight, including Lee. The end. So yes, Kakashi did train Sasuke in taijutsu. Kakashi also had a compelling reason to teach taijutsu - genjutsu might not work well against Gaara (his shield would still protect him from physical harm anyway) and ninjutsu would be terribly ineffective. Quick taijutsu seemed to work against Gaara and that is why he learned it. Without the same compelling reason for Itachi, and without someone to teach him (or at least we don't know if someone taught him) then I wouldn't say he's a taijutsu expert. And once again I don't take 'well Sasuke is good so Itachi must be better' as an argument. So, in short: There is nothing saying that he can't be as good as Gai. There is ALSO nothing saying anything about his being as good as Gai. Nothing either way. Yes, he could be building up his taijutsu since that would generally be a Sharingan user's weakest point. There is also every possibility that he is building up his strengths to compensate for his weaknesses. |
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2004-08-25, 02:08 | Link #270 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
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4th Hokage
I think there are hints throughout that the 4th was a frightingly powerful ninja.
As some have mentioned, comments by Anko to the 3rd, the nuance in how the 3rd had to avoid the 4th being summoned by Oro at all costs, etc. The techniques of the 4th that we've been show have been on a different level- especially the one to seal Kyubi. Wasn't Kyubi supposed to have attacked Konoha continually over many years? I recall statements to the effect that this was not the very first time Kyubi had attacked. Why had no other ninja been able to permanantly incapcitate Kyubi? From all reports, the best they had managed to do before was temporarily drive it off. From the first between Oro and the 3rd, the technique appears to require direct contact and the incapacitation of the "victim". How the 4th managed to do so to a legendary demon, who with a wave of its tail could shatter mountains, its on a different level. Its a different order of magnitude than even Shukaku who Gamabunta was unable to handle. |
2004-08-25, 03:41 | Link #271 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2004-08-25, 03:50 | Link #272 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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2004-08-25, 13:59 | Link #273 | ||||||||||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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Besides like I said and re-said you take the example of the sannin as a general example for every old ninja which is stupid, regular ninja doesn't create new jutsu, and once they learned those of their clan, it's pretty much finished. And even for the Sannin, you say that it seems that it balance their loss of physical capacity whereas as you say... we have no clue of their actual strength comparisons between then and now. Quote:
Then yeah the average age of weightlifters champion is around the middle twenty, as the usual average age of athletes in general, 30 max in certain disciplines. And even near his seventy, Sarutobi was still incredibly impressive and strong and had probably still more chakra than any Jounin. Quote:
Once again you act as if the all the regular ninja never stop to learn new jutsu and create some of them. Ninja aren't all from the Uchiha clan or simply aren't genius. They're teached the jutsu of their family in their youth and use them all their life. Their experience increase indeed, and that's why I said that they didn't level down at ~25 because they have the experience of veterans. And you decided yourself that the loss of stamina is unimportant, if that so, where are the other old ninjas? They should be the strongest with their huge experience and their 'almost the same' stamina. So why do we only see young ninja, in their thirty at max except those who're legendary? Quote:
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There is no point in your 'arguement' we can invent anything about hypothetical ninja. Quote:
Jutsu that a 25 years old ninja can't handle? Such as? Where did you dreamed that? Ninja who wouldn't know yet their jutsus in their thirsty? Are you kidding? You merely affirm that becoming old means to have stronger jutsu, it's nothing but wrong, plain and simple. There is absolutely no reason for someone having 45 years to have a jutsu that he couldn't handle 20 years ago. Quote:
Gai will not stop training which will allow him to remain really strong for a certain time but he can't stop his body from aging and training or not, his capacities will decrease, it's how life is, dealt with it. And yeah lol I well imagine Tsunade and Jiraiya hardworking daily to remain as strong as they were, especially Tsunade Btw where is her experience of battle? She gave up her nindo about 25~30 years ago. Quote:
And no it's absolutely not unlikely that someone like Oro could have learned the Edo Tensei at 25 or even less, it just doesn't fit with your point. Quote:
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I don't know how strong he was? Neither you, still that doesn't stop you to affirm the opposite. That's not the first time I saw you saying to someone not to use the same kind of arguement as you do. You know nothing about their past strenght and that doesn't stop you from discussing of it right now so spare me this kind of crap, thanks. Quote:
You said that their title is a matter of time and that the 4th hasn't enough time for the reputation that the 3rd had. It's stupid, the Sannin gained their reputation in their twenty, they still have the same around 30 years ago. For the 3rd times, to be the strongest shinobi ever just mean that you showed more strength than anybody ever, it can happen at 25 years or at 13 for that matters. What part of 'no time comparison' didn't you understand? Besides no the God of Shinobi isn't a greater title than 'legendary' because legendary isn't a title to begin with. The 3rd was legendary as the God of the Shinobi whereas Jiraiya & co are legendary as the Sanin. Quote:
But yeah merely a difference of perception here. |
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2004-08-25, 14:25 | Link #274 | |
Cool as a Cucumber
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Holland
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Just as easy as you assume there is no reason one could assume there is. For example, as jutsu that requires 45 years of everyday studying..or research for that matter. Or a Jutsu that comes with wrinkly skin, really if you are assuming things like this in the world of naruto, you're well of your mark.
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2004-08-25, 15:05 | Link #275 | ||||||||||
The mac
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I never said 'legendary' was a matter of time only, but of course time plays an effect. If Kyuubi had attacked 30 years earlier and killed Sarutobi at the age of 20, it's highly unlikely he would've had the legend that he did, because his life was cut short, the same that happened to Yondaime. Is time the only factor? No, of course not, but time allows for more circumstance/more jutsu/etc/etc which helps to create that legend. I could say the same in our world, had MJ been killed at 25 before any championships, he would've never recieved the recognition has being the best of all time. |
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2004-08-25, 17:51 | Link #276 | ||||||||||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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And once again from your own word we have no clue of their actual strength comparisons between then and now so you're just assuming that they are as strong as they were, as I do. That's why we discuss in the first place. The fact is that being in your prime means that you're at your top condition both physically and mentally, the peak of your life. And that they're not in their prime anymore. Quote:
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And knowledge doesn't mean jutsu knowledge, the fact that you age doesn't mean obligatory that learn more jutsu. And more generally, if all people learned from their experience the world would be a better place but that doesn't happen often. Once again I spoke of regular ninja since that's what we do since quite a number of posts now. If your point is that the 4th is more likely to improve his jutsus then I agree because as I said in a previous post he's a genius. But don't act like we weren't discussing about the ninja in general. Btw you didn't even answer half of the part that you quoted. Quote:
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And the 3rd had still an enormous strength whereas he was almost 70, still he had lost a huge part of his previous strength. Quote:
Please show one shred, iota, or example that shows he had not created the jutsu by 25, and I'll leave it alone. Besides Oro has plenty of corpses to dispose : those of the enemy ninja, not hard to find in a era of perpetual war. And I don't know if he knew this jutsu at 25, how could I? It's just not more unlikely than likely, we just don't know which is my point to begin with. Oh and should I take the fact that you didn't quoted or answered the point about that Oro didn't create the Edo Tensei like a final agreement about that? Quote:
And even if you take Jiraiya as example and for the [i]n[/n]th times we don't know his strenth when he was younger. And btw which point did I ignore please? Quote:
Show to you a legendary ninja who's lost all of his strength by the age of 50? Where did I ever say that a legendary would lost all his strength at 50? Stop putting words in my mouth. Quote:
You weren't saying that they didn't fallen too far (which I basically agree) but that they got stronger. Quote:
And that doesn't change that they're all legendary, that doesn't mean they share the same kind of strength, that's just not the same thing. Quote:
Still he's known as the strongest. My point didn't change, I don't say that's it's impossible that the 4th could have became even greater than the 3rd, just that it's not particulary likely. Merely possible. Quote:
And once again, you think that's it's unlikely that the 3rd was known as the strongest in his mid twenty whereas I think it's rather likely and anyway perfectly possible. |
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2004-08-25, 22:51 | Link #278 | |||||||||||
The mac
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Now, as for the part I left out... Quote:
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As for Edo Tensei, that does require corpses, is not a one-time only jutsu, and therefore could be practiced-upon, repeated, etc. I would imagine Orochimaru would test it in some form to make sure the right shit is brought forth, no? As far as I know, there is only one death god, so I doubt Yondaime had to worry about accidentally summoning baby death gods before fighting Kyuubi. They are very different techniques, so comparing them in this manner isn't really valid. And if he only needed dead corpses, why did he use two of his live, subordinates? It's more likely they need to be sacrificed for that purpose, Edo Tensei than that you can just pick up any two bodies off the street. As for Nidaime, since he did say the name of the jutsu, I'll concede he may have heard of it before, but his and Shodaime's responses to it, if so, were very odd. Quote:
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2004-08-25, 23:14 | Link #279 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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actually the anime seemed to suggest that the third became the hokage at an incredibly young age. They show a scene where the 1st and 2nd tell him some hokage crap. And i think his name proffesor was probably what he was called early in his career. later he became know as teh greatest of the kages.(IMO) As far as yall 2s debate, i think it may make sense to say that the fourth may have got better, then again he may not. some geniuses, and people of high skill do not improve much with age. some people of less high abilities, become legendary when they are old. Many a genius or prodigy learns to play the piano at an early age, but many dont achieve the skill of a grandmaster by the end of thier career. That said, apparently the 4rth was incredibly tough even during his time. Really i think that as it stands its probably a toss up between the 4rth and the 3rd for strongest in their prime |
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2004-08-26, 00:28 | Link #280 | |||
The mac
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While your point is true, I think given the nature of Yondaime's personality, and the jutsu he created up to that point suggests he would've continued to grow. Although it's possible, I doubt he would just stop, it's more likely he would want to continually increase his strength for the sake of the village, he certainly paints the picture image of what it means to 'protect,' everyone in Konoha, even Sarutobi, seem to admire, look up to, and refer back to. The time Anko came in...he was staring at Yondaime's picture. When he was giving his monologue to Orochimaru about the village foundation, he ended it with "isn't that right, Fourth?" Anyways, yeah, most of it is conjecture, speculation, and opinion. Like I pointed out earlier, this is just side discussion, I'm just bouncing ideas around. Nothing more. Quote:
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